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X Wing 2.0, the most expensive version change for a miniature game in the history of gaming?

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10 hours ago, Firebird TMK said:

ZOMG.  You must have missed the irony of the last two paragraphs of your post.   Especially the part about being an "enlightened prophet".

This isn't the first time I've a fan-boy post shilling for game companies, signaling change-loving virtue, and denouncing anyone who doesn't follow the herd in which the poster has appointed himself lead bull.  But this one is a new level of obnoxious TFG arrogance.

There are valid reasons for player dissatisfaction with 2.0, not least of which is the loss of most opportunities to play with anyone other than a few of your own group.  The assumption that "the majority of players will move on" does not invalidate those reasons.  The new edition may or may not prove to be an improvement, even a worthwhile expenditure.  A substantial section of the existing customer base, however, may not be able to make such an expenditure.  You are not morally superior to those who cannot, or do not wish to, make the required conversion.

I submit that it is YOU who are "not needed here".

If you ain't buying, you ain't doing new business. You are by definition not needed. That is the choice you make by not buying into second edition. 

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I keep asking this because I really want to know: what price point for the conversion kit do your think is fair? FFG has to pay the designers for their time to create and balance that entire faction all at once, come up with all the new rules for that ship, design a new format, create all the new artwork, produce all of the cardboard tiles for each of the ships in multiplies, print all of the pilot cards and upgrades, and ship the kit to the U.S. and to your FLGS so you can but it for 50 bucks. Considering all that, what price do you think is fair for that content?

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5 hours ago, Hobojebus said:

No you see taking melee units after 5th is not viable, running blood claws did not work if I didn't buy those new units I lose automatically making playing pointless.

To stand a chance I 100% needed to buy shooting units, and I hated it and quit after a year of trying to get that gun heavy army to feel like my beloved wolves.

By comparison I have defenders and gunships so no I don't need to buy another ship, I may want to buy I won't need to that's the difference I'll have a choice 40k never gave me that.

I had great success with combat lists in 6th and 7th editions.

You just wanted the new hotness to improve your chances. Nothing wrong with that. I imagine it will be the same when new upgrades and new pilots start dropping for X Wing. You'll want those too.

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It’s definitely a fair price and it’s a great deal better than the price of any of GW’s edition changes. However, the reason I stopped playing GW games is I hate buying into new editions. I may just keep playing 1st since I’m not sure 2nd really offers anything for me personally. I do like all the changes they have made though and that’s the first time I can say that about an edition change, so still a little bit on the fence

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2 hours ago, willow560 said:

I keep asking this because I really want to know: what price point for the conversion kit do your think is fair? FFG has to pay the designers for their time to create and balance that entire faction all at once, come up with all the new rules for that ship, design a new format, create all the new artwork, produce all of the cardboard tiles for each of the ships in multiplies, print all of the pilot cards and upgrades, and ship the kit to the U.S. and to your FLGS so you can but it for 50 bucks. Considering all that, what price do you think is fair for that content?

About $25. I'd feel pretty good about spending the money at $25.

FFG are a massive company. I would imagine they can afford to lose a bit of money on the conversion kits without going bankrupt. Lots of other companies seem to manage. Knight Models is a much smaller outfit and they managed to give away all the rules and cards for their second edition of the Batman miniatures game (which is awesome and has awesome models by the way) for free. The new Age of Sigmar? Free. It's a business technique called loss leading. You deliberately take a loss on this product, in order to sell more of that product down the line. FFG could have done that, but they did some research and instead decided that the market would bear a $50 charge, so that's what they slapped on the sticker. This isn't a favour to us, they literally decided to charge us as much as they could.

I have no idea how many of these things they intend to produce or sell. But the majority of the price comes from mark-ups. Dropping the price by half doesn't mean FFG lose half their profit from the product, it's probably more like 25%.

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On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 5:51 PM, ficklegreendice said:

Man just buying a Warhammer rulebook + updated codex ran for as much

Much more if you wanted hardcover

The backlash to X wing 2.0 is perhaps the biggest kneejerk, though 

 

And that's not counting the new models that come out for what ever faction in 40K you play either....Friend of mine upgraded during the last 40K rules release he spent close to $800.00 USD just to get caught up. At least FFG isn't making the ship models non-playable as GW has done several times over the years (my poor SOB's can't wait for new models) . Me not sure about 2.0 yet, going to wait and see how long a huge FAQ will come out after 2.0 is launched.

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4 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

About $25. I'd feel pretty good about spending the money at $25.

I think for all the content in the faction conversion kits 50$ is more than fair. Not only are you getting the pilot cards and medium bases but you are also getting all the upgrade cards from those sets. 

From the view point of someone that left xwing  because I was sick of buying ships for upgrade cards I am super excited to be able to buy a core set and conversion kit and maybe some ships from people that rage quit to get back in the hobbie. 

 

To the peole saying when aos and 40k released new editions they didn’t force you to buy a conversion kit. Actually they did. 40k 8th releases with indexes.  Imperium 1 and 2 , chaos, Xenos (alien races) 1 and 2 . 

Each index is 25$ some people bought all 5 most just the one for their army of choice. 

 

You also had had to buy the rule book 70$ 

So that 95$ to convert 1 army. Vs 90$ to to convert 1 army in xwing. 

 

When aos released they completely destroyed the world.  The 5 page rulebook was free. But they removed points. Most people rage quit. Because of this. They fixed the points issue with the general handbook but they charge 40$. 

 

Both games also also have codex/ army books 50$ which are needed for your army when they release.

 

 

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Just now, fiddybucks said:

I think for all the content in the faction conversion kits 50$ is more than fair. Not only are you getting the pilot cards and medium bases but you are also getting all the upgrade cards from those sets. 

If it was every card for the lifetime of 2.0 included in the box, then yeah $50 seems reasonable. 

But we both know it won't be. Probably be around 10% of the total pilot/upgrade cards in there.

I look at it this way: When I buy a codex for a 40K faction, I get every unit profile and every upgrade and every special rule for the lifetime of the edition, for my entire faction, for $50.

Similarly, I get a bunch of unit profiles and upgrades and stuff in the $50 conversion kit. But then there's more upgrades and pilots released in wave 2. And more in wave 3. And wave 4. And so on and so on. If I want to maintain parity, that is, if we want to keep the comparison fair between GW and FFG, then purchasing ALL the unit profiles and upgrades for a faction in X Wing is both more time consuming and more expensive. Imagine if GW took the same approach with their codex releases: Release half a codex when the edition changes, and release the other half, a page at a time, over the course of five or so years. Does that sound like fun? Doesn't sound like much fun to me.

Just now, fiddybucks said:

To the peole saying when aos and 40k released new editions they didn’t force you to buy a conversion kit. Actually they did. 40k 8th releases with indexes.  Imperium 1 and 2 , chaos, Xenos (alien races) 1 and 2 . 

Each index is 25$ some people bought all 5 most just the one for their army of choice. 

This is true. It's also worth mentioning it's the only time it's happened in 25 years, and it's also worth mentioning that each $25 index upgraded 6+ factions. My Imperium 1 Index converted 7 full factions. Not two of this unit and two of that unit. The whole faction, all the datasheets, all the upgrades, all the point costs, for seven factions, for $25.

In FFG terms that would be somewhere between $350 and $700.

GW can do seven factions for $25, where FFG charges $50 for half of one faction.

Now yes, it's true you needed to buy a codex for your faction some years down the track. But it's also fair to assume that most, if not all veteran X Wing players will also be buying more ships as they're released, in order to gain access to the new pilots and upgrades being released.

Finally, as mentioned before, the new edition of Age of Sigmar will be free. With new battlescrolls also being free.

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5 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

I had great success with combat lists in 6th and 7th editions.

You just wanted the new hotness to improve your chances. Nothing wrong with that. I imagine it will be the same when new upgrades and new pilots start dropping for X Wing. You'll want those too.

No I have played since 2nd ed and never wanted to play a shooting army, I find it extremely tedious and that's why I quit and skipped the entirety of 7th.

At the start of 8th with indexes I could finally run my claws again for a few months, then the codex started to release and we went right back to shooting dominating, if I wanted the new hotness as you put it I'd of had to buy a ton of guard and custodes to stand a chance instead I quit again.

So to stand a chance I'd need the index, CA, the guard codex and the custodes codex before buying several hundred pounds worth of models, that's not a reasonable price to pay compared to a £40 conversion kit.

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Just now, Hobojebus said:

So to stand a chance I'd need the index, CA, the guard codex and the custodes codex before buying several hundred pounds worth of models, that's not a reasonable price to pay compared to a £40 conversion kit.

Collecting two factions from scratch doesn't cost the same as converting one faction? Colour me surprised.

I'm not too familiar with Space Wolves. Do the bloodclaws still exist as a unit?

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4 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

Collecting two factions from scratch doesn't cost the same as converting one faction? Colour me surprised.

I'm not too familiar with Space Wolves. Do the bloodclaws still exist as a unit?

They do but since the last faq all you have to do to make them useless is stand on something more than an inch high with no space to place a model and they can not even charge.

Not that they can reliably cross the board anyway as even in rhinos your looking at a third turn assault and against guard or Eldar the games over by then.

 

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3 hours ago, Hobojebus said:

They do but since the last faq all you have to do to make them useless is stand on something more than an inch high with no space to place a model and they can not even charge.

1) Those are beta rules and require both players' consent to use. 

2) Everyone knows that rule is bull**** and I haven't met anyone who thinks it should be enforced. 

3) If someone DOES want to use that rule (and you foolishly agree), it doesn't invalidate CC as a concept. Is their whole army deployed up on terrain AND you're not playing an objective based mission? 

If you don't like the game, then quitting is understandable. But a trial test for a stupid but largely inconsequential rule is a bad reason to quit. 

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14 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

If you ain't buying, you ain't doing new business. You are by definition not needed. That is the choice you make by not buying into second edition. 

Well, since you don't decide who is "needed" and who isn't, it looks like people who don't agree with you will still be posting.  Get used to it.

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5 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

If it was every card for the lifetime of 2.0 included in the box, then yeah $50 seems reasonable. 

But we both know it won't be. Probably be around 10% of the total pilot/upgrade cards in there.

I look at it this way: When I buy a codex for a 40K faction, I get every unit profile and every upgrade and every special rule for the lifetime of the edition, for my entire faction, for $50.

Similarly, I get a bunch of unit profiles and upgrades and stuff in the $50 conversion kit. But then there's more upgrades and pilots released in wave 2. And more in wave 3. And wave 4. And so on and so on. If I want to maintain parity, that is, if we want to keep the comparison fair between GW and FFG, then purchasing ALL the unit profiles and upgrades for a faction in X Wing is both more time consuming and more expensive. Imagine if GW took the same approach with their codex releases: Release half a codex when the edition changes, and release the other half, a page at a time, over the course of five or so years. Does that sound like fun? Doesn't sound like much fun to me.

This is true. It's also worth mentioning it's the only time it's happened in 25 years, and it's also worth mentioning that each $25 index upgraded 6+ factions. My Imperium 1 Index converted 7 full factions. Not two of this unit and two of that unit. The whole faction, all the datasheets, all the upgrades, all the point costs, for seven factions, for $25.

In FFG terms that would be somewhere between $350 and $700.

GW can do seven factions for $25, where FFG charges $50 for half of one faction.

Now yes, it's true you needed to buy a codex for your faction some years down the track. But it's also fair to assume that most, if not all veteran X Wing players will also be buying more ships as they're released, in order to gain access to the new pilots and upgrades being released.

Finally, as mentioned before, the new edition of Age of Sigmar will be free. With new battlescrolls also being free.

I guess I am just looking at it as a great way to fix the game and get new players and some returning players back in the game. 

 

I understand and your frustration, but I am glad they decided to make this change. 

They could have done a wave by wave conversion kit (4 of each ship from each wave in a box) 

or they could have seen the way the vocal minority reacted and said no conversion kits you just have to buy all new ships. 

Or they could have offered print on demand pdf but you have to go to kinkos and print out your dials and ship bases. But that might gut be more than 1.25 per ship like the conversion kits. 

Maybe they should have done 1 of each ship @ 25$ per conversion kit but then we would have to buy more kits. 

 

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10 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

About $25. I'd feel pretty good about spending the money at $25.

FFG are a massive company. I would imagine they can afford to lose a bit of money on the conversion kits without going bankrupt. Lots of other companies seem to manage. Knight Models is a much smaller outfit and they managed to give away all the rules and cards for their second edition of the Batman miniatures game (which is awesome and has awesome models by the way) for free. The new Age of Sigmar? Free. It's a business technique called loss leading. You deliberately take a loss on this product, in order to sell more of that product down the line. FFG could have done that, but they did some research and instead decided that the market would bear a $50 charge, so that's what they slapped on the sticker. This isn't a favour to us, they literally decided to charge us as much as they could.

I have no idea how many of these things they intend to produce or sell. But the majority of the price comes from mark-ups. Dropping the price by half doesn't mean FFG lose half their profit from the product, it's probably more like 25%.

Since part of the reason I think 2.0 is to increase the margins on small ships, I think the Core Set is a loss leader. And quite possibly the Falcon. And I don't think the Conversion Kits are a good choice for a loss leader, as their entire point is to allow people to NOT buy the re-releases. 

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16 hours ago, willow560 said:

I keep asking this because I really want to know: what price point for the conversion kit do your think is fair? FFG has to pay the designers for their time to create and balance that entire faction all at once, come up with all the new rules for that ship, design a new format, create all the new artwork, produce all of the cardboard tiles for each of the ships in multiplies, print all of the pilot cards and upgrades, and ship the kit to the U.S. and to your FLGS so you can but it for 50 bucks. Considering all that, what price do you think is fair for that content?

$25 as is, or keep price the same but triple the contents so people dont have to buy 3 to field a standard squad. FFG could still make a hefty profit at that price too

If you do even a modest amount of research into printing, packaging, and shipping costs it becomes very clear that they are making a large profit off of essentially a customer loyalty/retention package. these boxes are costing them under $10. consider that a kickstarter for something like C'MONs  Zombicide series provides a backer with dozens of times the components for less money AND still generates enough profit for CMON to produce multiple copies of the game to sell later.  and thats a from scratch game.

no one is asking Fantasy Flight to lose money gifting us the stuff, just that they shouldnt gouge if they want to retain us as customers

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23 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

If you do even a modest amount of research into printing, packaging, and shipping costs it becomes very clear that they are making a large profit off of essentially a customer loyalty/retention package.

Have you also done a modest amount of research into the design, art, licensing, app development and whatever other overheads FFG has? Just looking at the printing cost of the physical product is ridiculously reductive.

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On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 2:41 AM, HolySorcerer said:

I'm upgrading Imperials, Scum, and Rebels plus a new core set for about $150.  What game has had a cheaper change from one edition to the next?

A big part of that is a change of perspective (much like Legion). At the moment a lot of people buy every expansion to get the expansion-unique upgrade cards (like the much joked about autothruster upgrade pack which comes with a free starviper)

The conversion sets supposedly duplicate the non-faction-restricted cards - the claim that you need to buy all five conversion sets is not totally ridiculous, but it's not what they have in mind.

If a player has 'their faction' and particularly 'their squad', then a core set and one conversion set will cost you something in the £50 to £100 bracket depending on shipping, discounts, and trading cards between multiple players.

That's not a million miles from the GW equivalent of New Rulebook + New Codex.

 

Yes, some people will feel the need to buy everything. But it's not intended that you should have to.

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4 hours ago, Sekac said:

1) Those are beta rules and require both players' consent to use. 

2) Everyone knows that rule is bull**** and I haven't met anyone who thinks it should be enforced. 

3) If someone DOES want to use that rule (and you foolishly agree), it doesn't invalidate CC as a concept. Is their whole army deployed up on terrain AND you're not playing an objective based mission? 

If you don't like the game, then quitting is understandable. But a trial test for a stupid but largely inconsequential rule is a bad reason to quit. 

1) all beta rules have become full rules so far

2) but I know people who'd build terrain specifically to abuse it, not all gaming group are the same

3) they don't need the whole army deployed like that just the cheap chaff in front, if you can't clear the chaff you can't reach the stuff killing your army.

And I quit 8th before last year's chapter approved came out, the first few codex releases clearly showed all GW's claims about play testing and concern over balance were lies, nothing that's happened since has disproved that.

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42 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Have you also done a modest amount of research into the design, art, licensing, app development and whatever other overheads FFG has? Just looking at the printing cost of the physical product is ridiculously reductive.

Have you? How much do you think was spent on the development of these cards?

Take that dollar value, and divide it by how many units (core and expansion kits) you think FFG will sell. And make sure you apply the appropriate exemptions (licensing must be reduced to the amount applicable to X Wing only, and only for the period of development, as an example. Overheads must be spread over the entire FFG range, factor in re-used art, etc). And then consider that the cost of development is factored into the lifetime of the game, so take the dollar value you think was spent on developing the core rules and the new card layouts and the app, and divide that dollar value by however many X Wing units (total, including all ships) you think FFG will sell in say, the next five years.

I predict the resulting dollar amount is very, very small.

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Just now, Hobojebus said:

And I quit 8th before last year's chapter approved came out, the first few codex releases clearly showed all GW's claims about play testing and concern over balance were lies, nothing that's happened since has disproved that.

Never attribute to malice, that which is adequately explained by incompetence. GW aren't evil, they just have no capacity or serious desire to balance their games. I don't mind, I just treat 40K as a pure beer-and-pretzels game. Not to be taken seriously. We even use power levels instead of points (GASP!).

Edited by Chucknuckle

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