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Darth Meanie

I Don't Get It

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Just over a year ago, when trip jumps were ruining the game, I suggested banning them for the greater good of the game:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/246169-x-wings-first-ban/

At that time, most people were outraged at the idea, mostly for the idea that they had invested $30 per expac and FFG was going to invalidate their hard earned gaming dollars.

Screw me out of $100 for 3 JM5Ks???  Outrage!!

Suddenly, it will cost $100 in conversion kits to play those 3 Jumps.

This time:  Hey, I have had to buy warhammer 8 times.  It's the cost of progress.  That's what the gaming industry does.  It's a small price to pay to make the game better.

Furthermore, Poons, TLT, VI, etc. are "not included in 2.0."  Sounds like they got the ban hammer to me.  Yet within the context of 1.0 invalidating game content was incomprehensible.

 

TL/DR:

2017:  If FFG **** me out of $100 by banning things to make the game better I going to have serious problems with it.

2018:  FFG just banned everything and it's going to cost me $100 (or more) to start over.  Where do I sign up?

Edited by Darth Meanie

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5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Just over a year ago, when trip jumps were ruining the game, I suggested banning them for the greater good of the game:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/246169-x-wings-first-ban/

At that time, most people were outraged at the idea, mostly for the idea that they had invested $30 per expac and FFG was going to invalidate their hard earned gaming dollars.

Screw me out of $100 for 3 JM5Ks???  Outrage!!

Suddenly, it will cost $100 in conversion kits to play those 3 Jumps.

This time:  Hey, I have had to buy warhammer 8 times.  It's the cost of progress.  That's what the gaming industry does.  It's a small price to pay to make the game better.

Furthermore, Poons, TLT, VI, etc. are "not included in 2.0."  Sounds like they got the ban hammer to me.  Yet within the context of 1.0 invalidating game content was incomprehensible.

 

TL/DR:

2017:  If FFG **** me out of $100 by banning things to make the game better I going to have serious problems with it.

2018:  FFG just banned everything and it's going to cost me $100 (or more) to start over.  Where do I sign up?

Have you missed all of the people outraging and rage quitting (and literally selling their stuff) over the announcement and the forced conversion kits?

2017:  If FFG **** me out of $90 by banning things to make the game better I going to have serious problems with it.

2018: FFG just lost a customer for realzees because it's going to cost me $340 to start over.  Eff that!  FFG has become worse than GW ever since Asmodee.

Edited by Khyros

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2017: ffg screwed up a ship... losing 100$ for that sucks.

2017-2018: overcompensation screwed up the game

2018: ffg redesigns the WHOLE GAME. ~15% of my initial investment seems worth it. After all these things happened before and usually led to better balanced games (descent 1.0 -> 2.0 and also somewhat IA).

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10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

2017:  If FFG **** me out of $100 by banning things to make the game better I going to have serious problems with it.

2018:  FFG just banned everything and it's going to cost me $100 (or more) to start over.  Where do I sign up?

In between FFG basically banned those tripple Jump list anyway when they took away the torpedo slots and some people are still a little bit salty about that, especially those who just used Dengar with torps. ?

And with a complete new edition people still dream of a perfect balanced game which allows them to bring 4 B-Wings or 5 A-Wings or TIE-Swarms or X-Wings, etc one the table to competitive play. The salt and tears will come later when they realize that the balance is not as good as they imagine it now. Selling on dreams is easy, delivering in reality is a lot harder. 

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Are you selectively ignoring the many people who were thrilled when the jumps finally got nerfed, called for a TLT nerf or ban, every time an $80+ epic ship came out with a "fix" for 1 small ship, or when it took 4 sheathipedes to get enough FAAs to fly the (at the time) max of 4 X-Wings in a squad, or when FFG released the Autothrusters and Expertise expansion packs, or when a lot of us have 4+ defenders to have 3x x7?

Now FFG is saying that $50 will cover fixes for an entire faction, $100 per faction if day 1 of 2e someone feels absolutely compelled to be able to match cardboard to every individual ship of that faction they have. Moving forward cross-faction ships won't need to be bought for specific upgrades, they are going to release a way to get new cards in future waves without buying yet another model, they are implementing a way for the competitive game to be balanced by point costs which many of us have long wished were allowed in this edition, and they say they are expanding OP events away from just the standard game.

If the money is too much for anyone or if there is some line in the sand anyone wants to draw all the 1e components still work and especially for casual, home play if 1e is still fun keep playing it! As 2e comes out the Free squad builder can be checked out, you can see what changes are made to the game and how it's received, and backport stuff if you want to make it all up yourself anyway. The selective "you should be outraged" or "2e is a money grab!" ignores a long tradition of 1e ace packs, single card expansion packs, small ship stuff locked into epic ships, and the value of components in each $50 pack.

Edit: End result: 1e cost regular payments of $30-$100 per individual ship when a fix finally comes out and was devolving to the point that multiple fan rule changes were in the works. 2e is a fix pack for every ship and it's $50-100 a faction at the moment, with more info about converting non-wave 1 ships to come. I have a hard time drawing up outrage at something that's a huge improvement in price and scope to the current fix strategy. 

Edited by mdl0114

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FFG is never going to make everyone truly happy. Yeah, they could of outright banned things in 1.0 and moved on, but the game just got way too bloated with no way of easily curtailing things. Eventually they would have released something that is the next meta monster and we would have to wait 6 or 7 months for a **** FAQ. With 2.0, they have a much better structure to keep things in line and can easily point adjust or remove upgrades seamlessly through the app. No more getting out a hole punch and going hog wild on your Jumpmaster.

Also, 1.0 has waves of ships that were just powercreeped to the point of uselessness. I'd rather convert to a new system then have to keep buying "ship patches" to fix under performing ships.

 

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buying into x-wing 2.0 initially is going to cost less than the 3 jumpmasters I bought

the amount of work FFG put into 2.0 relative to hypothetically banning the jump is literally infinetly more work

 

 

though I absolutely thought it was necessary that the jump nerf made my 3 jumps FAR less useful in a list, even if I never used more than one again. 2.0 might change that

put simply: ban jumps, I get nothing

2.0, I get better game

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Textbook example of comparing apples to oranges.

Banning JM5Ks does not make X-Wing a better game, it removes one issue, but tons of other flaws still remain in the system.

The complete redisigning of the game has the potential to eliminate the majority of the flows, and achieve a better overall game balance. It is not guaranteed of course, but the information we have so far, I am optimistic.

 

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Because this isnt removing any ships and its given the chance to renovate every single one of them in ways they couldnt before.
Had they released a "fix" pack with new cardboard people would be pissed because they would have to make sure they dont get the old stuff mixed with the new stuff by accident and it would definitely be a $40 pack for a small ship due to the amount of cardboard/plastic in it. And as with everything xwing, you'd have to buy two of it in most cases.

100% positive Harpoons/TLTs arent going away for good, theyre just gone for now because they couldnt find a quick/easy way to fix them and still keep their original flavor. Though the fact that turrets are subject to range mechanics kinda fixes tlt's as it is, not to mention its no longer true 360 firing.

Majority of the people that were crying "FFG BETTER NOT SCREW ME OUT OF MY 100 WORTH OF JUMPS" already ragequit when it got the puncher taken to its upgrade slots. This is why mass buying kits is a bad idea just to make some specific, unusually powerful list. If the list is nigh unbeatable you probably shouldnt invest like 200 bucks to make that list...FFG has nerfed said lists time and time again.

My flgs recently had a silent auction, there were two ~2000 USD valued xwing collections there going for 300. Of course this is before 2.0 so nobody bought it, but guess what was in both kits? Triple jumps.

Edited by Vineheart01

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19 minutes ago, Reaver027 said:

One is taking components of game 1 out of game 1 and the other is transferring components from game 1 to game 2 so you don't have to rebuy everything if you want to play game 2.

I think calling X-Wing 2.0 a different game is a stretch. I’ve seen multiple people make that statement in different threads. 

If FFG had kept the same scale and had a Legion conversion kit so that I could use all of the models I owned for Imperial Assault, that would be FFG giving me a way to use components from game 1 in game 2.

X-Wing 2.0 will just be the current version of X-Wing. It’s really not much different than the release of FAQs and errata. It’s just larger in scale and requires replacing a lot of cardboard. 

Edited by WWHSD

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2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

X-Wing 2.0 will just be the current version of X-Wing. It’s really not much different than the release of FAQs and errata. It’s just larger in scale and requires replacing a lot of cardboard. 

 

It's a lot more like the change in D&D from 3e-4e-5e, or Pathfinder to 2e, or to compare Apples to Apples the most direct comparison is the very similar game Attack Wing. It's the same general game, but the rules are all updated, new rules added/old rules taken away, new abilities accounted for, and so far at least most individual pilots and abilities changed. We've got new slots, new action windows, different capability upgrades for old ships, and changes to the way an entire mechanic worked with PWTs and turret upgrades. All of this is more than they have said they're able to do with just errata. I believe them for turrets, and I believe that other things which could have been FAQ/errata'd or changed like card text and points are much easier to deal with all at once with the edition than it would be by making the FAQ even more of a bloated book than it already is.

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8 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

X-Wing 2.0 will just be the current version of X-Wing. It’s really not much different than the release of FAQs and errata. It’s just larger in scale and requires replacing a lot of cardboard. 

Futhermore it only impacts competitive players. Other kinds of players can still enjoy the game without spending 1 cent.

I have plenty of years-old boardgames I enjoy without feeling the need for expansions or new versions.

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7 minutes ago, Cartchan said:

...other kinds of players can still enjoy the game without spending 1 cent...

I7GvA2.gif

...but... no, no, you don't get it, EVERY SINGLE ONE of my ships MUST be converted to 2nd Edition!  At the SAME TIME!  It doesn't matter that I'll only be using 3-4 of them at once, tops.  They ALL NEED UPDATING!  That's how this WORKS, man!

Edited by FTS Gecko

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It also boils down to the options people feel thy have in those 2 situations

scenario 1 you presented: Banning JM5K for competitive play after purchasing ships

Option: don't play JM5Ks for competitive play.  No other option.  Result: upset people, money spent they can't use

scenario 2 you presented: Version 2.0

option(s): don't play 2.0.  Pay for a new game and Play 2.0.  Additional option: you can STILL play 1.0 regardless of previous choices

Result: players have choices, tends to result in less upset people

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I've asked this question around, but I'm curious to see what you guys think:

Let's pretend they accidentally design Jumpmaster 2.0 in the new X-wing 2.0 list given the current pricing of the pilots / upgrades.

Will people still flock to buy 3 Jumpmaster 2.0s to field the broken list? Or will they be terrified of it being nerfed *very quickly* this time and stay away?  Is this new system also a deterrent?

 

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One of my earliest games was against four contracted scouts with 3 X-wings I'd brought to a game of X-wing. FFG is lucky I ever bought another thing. 

Why should I be bent out of shape about what's in the conversion kits? 

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3 minutes ago, Glucose98 said:

I've asked this question around, but I'm curious to see what you guys think:

Let's pretend they accidentally design Jumpmaster 2.0 in the new X-wing 2.0 list given the current pricing of the pilots / upgrades.

Will people still flock to buy 3 Jumpmaster 2.0s to field the broken list? Or will they be terrified of it being nerfed *very quickly* this time and stay away?  Is this new system also a deterrent?

 

Can't really buy into the new OP if you already own it ;)

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33 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I think calling X-Wing 2.0 a different game is a stretch.

 

20 minutes ago, Cartchan said:

Futhermore it only impacts competitive players. Other kinds of players can still enjoy the game without spending 1 cent.

So if I don't convert, and then buy a new Resistance A-Wing next year it will be fully compatible with my old collection?

No?

2.0 must be a new game then.

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New editions are no different than an expansion for old PC games.

They rarely just added content, they usually reworked old content too. Only difference is since its modifying physical stuff its a bit harder to implement cleanly.

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5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

 

So if I don't convert, and then buy a new Resistance A-Wing next year it will be fully compatible with my old collection?

No?

2.0 must be a new game then.

My point was: if you don't play in competition, v2 does not impact you if you don't want to. What is your point ?

Consider that there won't be any more extension for X-wing. Does it prevent you to play ? No. It is not like if Blizzard shut down the WoW servers.

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3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

So if I don't convert, and then buy a new Resistance A-Wing next year it will be fully compatible with my old collection?

No?

2.0 must be a new game then.

What exactly do you want? The indefinite continuation of X-Wing 1.0? That was never on the table. With the state it was in they were either going to reboot it or can it like the LCG.

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