Jump to content
QuickWhit

Kethra Bonecaster and her Surge Ability

Recommended Posts

The point that she has no dice for [RANGED] makes me think that even though you are performing [RANGED], you are using all of the [MELEE] symbols on her card and dial and pretending they are [RANGED]. You can’t just treat the dial as changed, you have to temporarily change the icon for the melee dice. If you do that, why isn’t the surge effect changed as well.

 

If you counter by trying to argue that you just gather all the information for a [MELEE] and then perform a [RANGED], why isn’t the surge effect information gathered as well?

 

That would make the surges work. 

 

I would then then have to say that you treat it completely as a ranged attack and Cover works

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Church14 said:

The point that she has no dice for [RANGED] makes me think that even though you are performing [RANGED], you are using all of the [MELEE] symbols on her card and dial and pretending they are [RANGED]. You can’t just treat the dial as changed, you have to temporarily change the icon for the melee dice. If you do that, why isn’t the surge effect changed as well.

If you counter by trying to argue that you just gather all the information for a [MELEE] and then perform a [RANGED], why isn’t the surge effect information gathered as well?

That would make the surges work. 

I would then then have to say that you treat it completely as a ranged attack and Cover works

Ok, let's walk through it:

  • Reveal Kethra's dial at initiative 3 with [melee attack] selected.
  • RRG 10.1: her only attack profile is her melee with WW, so she must select that.
  • 10.2 is select target, so this is our last chance to use Bonecaster, treating the WW melee attack profile we've already selected as a WW ranged attack.
  • 10.6 is spend surges, at which point we are performing a ranged attack which cannot trigger the melee surge ability on her card.

It seems pretty clear cut, honestly. By the time you have the opportunity to spend surges, you're already making a ranged attack, and there is absolutely no indication that Bonecaster lets you treat a melee surge ability as a ranged surge ability. 

Obviously relying on templating arguments with FFG is a mistake, but Sweeping Strikes and Th'Uk Tar already give us precedent for making melee attacks at range, and it would have been very simple to add a ranged icon to the surge ability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

Ok, let's walk through it:

  • Reveal Kethra's dial at initiative 3 with [melee attack] selected.
  • RRG 10.1: her only attack profile is her melee with WW, so she must select that.
  • 10.2 is select target, so this is our last chance to use Bonecaster, treating the WW melee attack profile we've already selected as a WW ranged attack.
  • 10.6 is spend surges, at which point we are performing a ranged attack which cannot trigger the melee surge ability on her card.

It seems pretty clear cut, honestly. By the time you have the opportunity to spend surges, you're already making a ranged attack, and there is absolutely no indication that Bonecaster lets you treat a melee surge ability as a ranged surge ability. 

Obviously relying on templating arguments with FFG is a mistake, but Sweeping Strikes and Th'Uk Tar already give us precedent for making melee attacks at range, and it would have been very simple to add a ranged icon to the surge ability.

Yet you are picking the individual steps where bonecaster applies and where it doesn’t in order to justify your conclusion.

 

Bonecaster says treat it as ranged, so why isn’t it ranged attack during 10.1? To me, you need to treat all steps of the attack consistently. If you do, surges apply. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Yet you are picking the individual steps where bonecaster applies and where it doesn’t in order to justify your conclusion.

 

Bonecaster says treat it as ranged, so why isn’t it ranged attack during 10.1? To me, you need to treat all steps of the attack consistently. If you do, surges apply. 

Hm, Bonecaster is completely devoid of timing, which seems like an oversight: RRG1.5 "An ability that is not preceded by an icon is accompanied by text that describes when a unit can use that ability."

Since it lacks timing, let's assume it's the most liberal "at any time," so you could certainly treat it as ranged as soon as you declare the attack, but that doesn't change the fact that by the time you have the opportunity to spend surges you're making a ranged attack and your surge ability triggers off of melee attacks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/10/2018 at 6:57 AM, Viktus106 said:

Anyone emailed FFG about this? 

My take is that for 8 points and the specific way it's worded, the surge works with Bone Caster. 

If not, it kinda makes Kings the auto include option instead of being a personal preference.

EDIT:
Right, now I am at a computer, here is my thought process:

Initiative 3 step declared
1. Keth'ra activates
2. Reveals Command dial
3. Perform Action: Melee action + surge modifier
4. Check Melee condition - Are you engaged ? NO
5. Melee action fails
6. Bone Caster declared - "You may perform your {Melee} as a {Ranged}"
7. Declare target
8. Is target in Range and Line of Sight? YES
9. Attacker rolls the dice as indicated by the attack profile - MELEE - Two White Dice
10. Re-roll with Precise 1
11. Spend Surges - Ability Pre-Requisite - Melee Action on dial ? YES
12 . . .
13 . . .

Now, if we are saying that BoneCaster completely changes your melee attack to a ranged attack then you now FAIL to meet the rules stated at step #9. You don't a ranged attack profile therefore you don't have any dice to roll and as per rules, if your attack dice are ever reduced to zero, your attack automatically fails. 

So based on the order of operations, Bone Caster is a 8 point upgrade that causes you to automatically fail.

HOWEVER.

If you agree that it simply allows your melee action to follow the rules of a ranged action, then it STILL counts as a melee action, meaning you roll your two white dice and your surge ability, which requires you to be performing a melee action is met and therefore triggers. 


 

I think I covered the steps performed before and it still didn't resolve it. 

Honestly, this one is only going to be decided by a FAQ and I wouldn't be surprised if that only drops AFTER all Nationals are completed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎8‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 8:55 AM, flightmaster101 said:

In this case I think they got it right.  If you perform your melee as a ranged, then you are performing a melee attack, just at range 1-5 in your arc.

I.e. it does not say: "perform a ranged attack using you melee dice pool".

Those are 2 distinctly different statements.

Which brings up something interesting.  If it's a melee attack (taking place at range) then she cannot make use of heartseeker, which only works on ranged attacks.

And, you're missing the whole point.  It isn't about the surge, it's about the dispatch runner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Darth Matthew said:

And, you're missing the whole point.  It isn't about the surge, it's about the dispatch runner.

Wow been a while since this was posted.

And the initial question was about using the melee surge abilities at range.  In fact I cant find any mention of dispatch runner in any post before the post you quoted. 

  I'm not understanding how I misinterpreted the ask below (from the initial post, bolded for clarification).

On 5/3/2018 at 7:16 AM, QuickWhit said:

Quick background into this question:  My small group has printed up cards and dials for unreleased expansions, including the Darnati Warriors, Wraiths, and Kethra.  We have been having a blast with them, but an issue has come up that we were hoping to get the group's input on...

Kethra's surge ability shows the melee icon and states: "[Surge icon]: The defender suffers 2 damage."

http://runewars.wikia.com/wiki/Kethra_A'laak

The Bonecaster upgrade states:  "You may perform your [Melee Icon] as a [Ranged Icon].

http://runewars.wikia.com/wiki/Bonecaster

I believe this should be interpreted as a ranged attack, and thus not able to use the surge ability.  However, the release article states:  "Kethra may use the skills she gained in her years of training to enact her Bonecaster upgrade. This unique upgrade, specific to Kethra A’laak, allows the witch to perform her melee as a ranged attack. When used alongside her surge modifier, Kethra can use this ranged melee to inflict two damage on her opponent without the need of dice and without putting herself at risk."

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/9/11/sorceress-of-the-blood-coven/

I realize that these release articles are often wrong.  But I wanted to get other's opinion on how this is supposed to work so that we are playing it correctly... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dispatch runner was in another thread. Making her a machine gun if you bring enough dispAtch runners.  I won’t comment on the rules, but I’d be inclined to sit down at home and work out the damage expections with abs without the ability.  If everyone thinks that she’s poor without it, and the math backs that up, there’s a decent chance they intended it to be used per the article and just flubbed the wording on the card.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vergilius said:

If everyone thinks that she’s poor without it, and the math backs that up, there’s a decent chance they intended it to be used per the article and just flubbed the wording on the card.

Average damage is about 4 + mortal if surges don’t work for 42 points at 9 HP. We will call a mortal 3 damage. So... 7 ish average damage without surge and a peak 11. With surges, goes up to 10 or so with surges if we call mortals 3 damage. Spikes to a peak 11.

 

Vipers, her equivalent, average 8 between two 2x1s for 36. For 44 (add rank), it goes up to 10. Also, this is with a total 16 HP. So much more durable  

 

There is a 46 point build for a 4 tray Vipers that averages 9 without support and averages closer to 12 with support. It spikes to a peak 18.

 

She is the worst choice for ranged damage in Uthuk. Out of all two choices...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Church14  I think you round off at a few more points than me.  I'll do some analysis below.

For everyone, one of the biggest problems here is that when doing comparisons, we want all things to be equal, but some of these comparisons between units introduce so many complications that all things will never be equal.  Still, we'll try our best.

Kethra:  4 is really fair here.  To be fair, some of the average damage depends upon what value we give the mortal strike on the white die.  Discounting the mortal strike, it does a touch above 1 on average.  The mortal is a wildcard.  If you're actively shooting a high armor target, it is gold.  But if you're shooting an armor 1, then the surge would be the absolute best.  Then there are the odd situations where the skill modifier might statistically do more damage.  It is also a wildcard since you can do that skill on some very odd turns when you wouldn't otherwise be able to shoot, and so one has to keep in mind her overall damage over the course of the game vis-a-vis whatever units we're comparing her too.  The surge modifier has some comparisons with Kari, who peaks at 10 damage, but will be more reliably around 6 even with Fortuna's.   Having the surge modifier allows you to reroll more aggressively and attempt to fix your dice, because hit/surge is now as good as hit/hit.  So there's an overall average damage increase, but a huge one.  I'm looking at about 4.66 instead of 4.  You're still limited by the die faces, and the efficiency of the surges depends upon what your target is.   So I want to put her in the 6-7 point range, depending upon how we count the Mortal.  So she's right with other heroes like Kari and Maegan.  I'm skeptical about the comparison to other units because you could probably find some unit at a similar price point that outdamages the hero.  What the hero brings is versatility.

Viper 2x1:  I'm seeing closer to 6, even with banes and rank.

Viper 46 point build:  I found one with 8.46 average damage unsupported.  I think that's where multiple points of rounding brought you to 9.  And yes, support should take that to around 12, but I didn't calculate the math out on it.  At that point, you probably want Close Quarters Targetting to protect your investment. 

 

And I think the trade-off is that although the Viper builds have 4 more health, they're going to be less serviceable when engaged in melee than Kethra will be, and Kethra's movement dial might give her plenty more options for extracating herself from difficult situations.  But that's simply where all other things are not quite equal.  My sense is that her damage is in the ballpark that it needs to be.  She probably should have her surge ability at range to jump into the league of Kari/Maegan, but she can do fine without it.  And since we're all watching this closely, there are a whole host of upgrades upon which the ruling might depend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Church14 said:

Average damage is about 4 + mortal if surges don’t work for 42 points at 9 HP. We will call a mortal 3 damage. So... 7 ish average damage without surge and a peak 11. With surges, goes up to 10 or so with surges if we call mortals 3 damage. Spikes to a peak 11.

 

Vipers, her equivalent, average 8 between two 2x1s for 36. For 44 (add rank), it goes up to 10. Also, this is with a total 16 HP. So much more durable  

 

There is a 46 point build for a 4 tray Vipers that averages 9 without support and averages closer to 12 with support. It spikes to a peak 18.

 

She is the worst choice for ranged damage in Uthuk. Out of all two choices...

This analysis completely ignores the other things Kethra brings... and misses on some other factors. Her passive is really good.  Her skill is extremely versatile and has huge damage potential.  She is much more dangerous in melee than vipers and can out-charge things. She doesn't lose combat efficiency when taking wounds. Splitting damage between two units has a risk of getting some of your damage ignored by armor.  

Your opponent has a lot to consider when deploying against her. You have to be careful not to bunch up your high armor units. You have to be aware of unnatural growths when choosing matchups.  It's not as simple as damage for points.  

Edited by QuickWhit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, QuickWhit said:

This analysis completely ignores the other things Kethra brings... and misses on some other factors. Her passive is really good.  Her skill is extremely versatile and has huge damage potential.  She is much more dangerous in melee than vipers and can out-charge things. She doesn't lose combat efficiency when taking wounds. Splitting damage between two units has a risk of getting some of your damage ignored by armor.  

Your opponent has a lot to consider when deploying against her. You have to be careful not to bunch up your high armor units. You have to be aware of unnatural growths when choosing matchups.  It's not as simple as damage for points.  

Her surges don’t stack, so she is actually worse against armor 3+ than Vipers. You are likely to see 3-5 damage bounce if she attacks armor 3.

 

Sure, she doesn’t lose damage output as she gets wounded, but she also tends to just die if people actually swing at her in melee. 3/3 feels so much worse than 4/3 or 3/4.

 

Her passive is solid. I like it a lot, but it doesn’t dictate gameplay significantly. It’s just a decent chunk of damage (6-8 usually) you kind of get for free. The end. It doesn’t force a change in strategy or delay stacking inspiration like other heroes. It doesn’t force your opponent to deploy conservatively because you’ve been able to make a meaningless deployment with your Leonx.

 

After multiple games and several tries a game, I’ve come to the point where I find her skill to be, well, usually less than useless. Initiative One and Runecasters can chime in about how I’m wrong, but it is an ability that you cannot rely on in a critical moment. In melee, a surge is usually a guaranteed 1-2 wounds. At range, the mortal is a guaranteed wound. In either case, her skill somethings does a wound to enemy units and one of yours. Basically, to me, a guaranteed 1-2 wounds on target is better >95% than a potential wound on 2-3. Especially when high armor is not the typical meta you face

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That’s a good reminder about her passive.  At overall contribution versus points spent, she’s looking well, even without the ability to spend her surges.  That puts her a bit like Kari.

Most heroes end up dead if they engage in melee too early or on bad inititiative values.  That’s just as true for those that want to run into combat.  Between the passive, kethra is more of a slow and steady damage unit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/4/2018 at 3:55 AM, Church14 said:

Her surges don’t stack, so she is actually worse against armor 3+ than Vipers. You are likely to see 3-5 damage bounce if she attacks armor 3.

I was assuming that her surge ability doesn't actually apply with bonecaster.  Even then she is still better against armor than the two 2x1 viper units you compare her to.  Two whites, brutal, and precise means 4 damage is pretty consistent outcome.  Mortal on the dial is also guaranteed.  She also has the possibility of hitting double hit or mortal on both whites.  2-3 wounds against 3-4 armor targets is normal for her.  The 2x1 vipers have one roll and and need the target to already have a bane on them to reach any amount of consistency for damage.  Without the bane their shots against an armored up hero or siege unit is going to bounce off the armor more than half the time.  With banes they still have blue dice and need to come up with either one hit or two surges in one roll to deal a wound to 3 armor and 1 hit AND 1 surge (or 2 hits) to deal a wound to 4 armor unit.

On 10/4/2018 at 3:55 AM, Church14 said:

Sure, she doesn’t lose damage output as she gets wounded, but she also tends to just die if people actually swing at her in melee. 3/3 feels so much worse than 4/3 or 3/4.

   I agree that 3/3 does feel significantly squishier than 3/4.  But if you are running bonecaster Kethra, shouldn't you have something in front of her?  In my experience, all that Uthuk beef means she is hard as **** to get to.  Even when you do get a clear path, you have to guess if she is going to charge you first, something she can manage against a lot of units.  If you guess wrong she probably gets two free swings at you before you get the opportunity to kill her.  The 2x1 vipers need two blockers to her one and have no such options when the blockers are gone.

On 10/4/2018 at 3:55 AM, Church14 said:

Her passive is solid. I like it a lot, but it doesn’t dictate gameplay significantly. It’s just a decent chunk of damage (6-8 usually) you kind of get for free. The end. It doesn’t force a change in strategy or delay stacking inspiration like other heroes. It doesn’t force your opponent to deploy conservatively because you’ve been able to make a meaningless deployment with your Leonx.

This may be a local meta thing... Around here the fact that she gets to choose her passive targets post deployment is very painful on the other side of the board.  I like running wraiths.  They get smoked by unnatural growths.  Knowing that my opponent can just plop this condition on the unit squaring up with the wraiths post deployment means I have to be very careful about where/when I deploy them.  Even when I can deploy around it, there are two units on the board that they just cannot engage.  I see you comparing it to other hero passives like Ravos' and Aliana's... and sure those are really good abilities too.  I do think it would be fair to say they are objectively (if sometimes situationally) better than Kethra's. However, the comparison was "Why take bonecaster Kethra when you can take two viper units for a similar price".   Vipers don't give you unnatural growths.  Kethra does.

On 10/4/2018 at 3:55 AM, Church14 said:

After multiple games and several tries a game, I’ve come to the point where I find her skill to be, well, usually less than useless. Initiative One and Runecasters can chime in about how I’m wrong, but it is an ability that you cannot rely on in a critical moment. In melee, a surge is usually a guaranteed 1-2 wounds. At range, the mortal is a guaranteed wound. In either case, her skill somethings does a wound to enemy units and one of yours. Basically, to me, a guaranteed 1-2 wounds on target is better >95% than a potential wound on 2-3. Especially when high armor is not the typical meta you face

I've seen her skill blank before too.  It's a 33.3% chance to just miss, and that is a bummer when it happens.  But 66.6% to deal an auto wound to more than one high armor target is still very good, and works a lot more often than it doesn't.  It also can't be boiled down to its chance to hit.  Sometimes the thing you are shooting at is all but guaranteed to die to your dice and the mortal on the dial is not necessary.  You have the option now to split your damage between multiple targets while shooting and skilling. When you are done clearing out a target and have nothing else in range to shoot at, you still have the option of using your skill, often while re-positioning to shoot at your next target.  You can also choose what initiative the skill goes off at by matching it with an action at that initiative.  It is incredibly versatile.  Also keep in mind (back to the original comparison) that a 2x1 of vipers has a similar chance to deal no damage to high armor targets, and can't shoot at things not in their range.

Also, for every time I've seen it just blank, there has been a time I've seen it hit 3 targets for effectively 7-9 damage.  Sure it's not as reliable as the mortal on the dial (assuming something is in shooting range), but there are times when it is worth taking the chance that it might miss to get that splash damage.

Not trying to sharpshoot your negative experiences with Bonecaster Kethra.  Sometimes playing with one unit just doesn't go well for... well reasons.  It took me several games with Wraiths to see their value, and now I love them (and my opponents hate them).   My experiences against Bonecaster Kethra have been that she is an absolute terror to deal with... and we have been playing her surges as not working when range attacking.

Edited by QuickWhit
Got the chance to hit with Kethra's skill wrong. Adjusted the percentages to the correct values.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting think about Kethra's skill.  If she dials it up, somebody is taking hits.

In a game today, I rallied instead of making the long charge, which left Ravos isolated and Kethra with no enemies near by.  But, she still had to perform the skill, and did a wound to a spined thresher.

It was a 300 point game, so usage doesn't translate directly to 200 point games; but that said, Kethra + 2 dispatch runners was a huge problem for me.  She was killing 6 to 8 archers a shot, and shooting 3 times  a turn.

 

-Matt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, Bonecaster Keth'ra just doesn't have the minerals, not when compared to Unnatural Shield of Kingsbones Keth'ra. The sheer threat she poses typically wins me games.

No one wants to charge her.
No one wants to be charged by her. 
Heroes on one wound left with Keth'ra yet to activate are generally going to die from her skill. 

I remember my Keth'ra charging a unit of Maegan Deepwood.

Charge - 2 damage. 
Dice rolled - 6 damage.
Deepwood activated - 2 damage.
Keth'ra took a wound. 
Unnatural - 2 damage.
Shield - 4 damage.

16 damage. Four trays.

Bonecaster cannot match that. No way. 

Maybe Bonecaster has a place in some meta's but it doesn't in mine. If people have success with it, more power to you but it doesn't in mine. 

As for the skill, it's a nice finisher but it can also throw you a game if you just use it willy-nilly. I found that I use it once every five or six games. 
 

Edited by Viktus106
Submitted by accident before finishing typing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've read through the debate and I'm honestly leaning toward the surge ability working with Bonecaster.  My opinion on the matter is just that, my opinion as I read the card.  Obviously, there is a swath of people who feel it shouldn't apply.   The question that rises for me is this; what is the proper play etiquette at this point with there being no official ruling?  I'm interested to hear other peoples take on it but this is mine:

If I am playing an opponent who is fielding Kethra with Bonecaster I'll ask them their stance on using her surge with the ranged attack.  If they are for it, I'll accept that as the terms of the game and play knowing they can deliver some damage with surges when attacking at range.  If an opponent is against it, I'll accept that as the terms.

I predominantly play as the Uthuk.  Having played with the Bonecaster and Kings Bone Armor variations of her character I can truly say that I appreciate the armor version of her much more. 

What's your take? 
Do you play to the interpretation of the person fielding her or argue against it?

(Not interested in tournament play where a TO could be asked upfront - only in casual play)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

Personally, Bonecaster Keth'ra just doesn't have the minerals, not when compared to Unnatural Shield of Kingsbones Keth'ra. The sheer threat she poses typically wins me games.

No one wants to charge her.
No one wants to be charged by her. 
Heroes on one wound left with Keth'ra yet to activate are generally going to die from her skill. 

I remember my Keth'ra charging a unit of Maegan Deepwood.

Charge - 2 damage. 
Dice rolled - 6 damage.
Deepwood activated - 2 damage.
Keth'ra took a wound. 
Unnatural - 2 damage.
Shield - 4 damage.

16 damage. Four trays.

Bonecaster cannot match that. No way. 

Maybe Bonecaster has a place in some meta's but it doesn't in mine. If people have success with it, more power to you but it doesn't in mine. 

As for the skill, it's a nice finisher but it can also throw you a game if you just use it willy-nilly. I found that I use it once every five or six games. 
 

That's almost an ideal match-up, though.  That's also why the Deepwood should take CQT, because the attack is still ranged, it doesn't trigger Unnatural and Shield, which are tied to the melee symbol.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

Personally, Bonecaster Keth'ra just doesn't have the minerals, not when compared to Unnatural Shield of Kingsbones Keth'ra. The sheer threat she poses typically wins me games.

No one wants to charge her.
No one wants to be charged by her. 
Heroes on one wound left with Keth'ra yet to activate are generally going to die from her skill. 

I remember my Keth'ra charging a unit of Maegan Deepwood.

Charge - 2 damage. 
Dice rolled - 6 damage.
Deepwood activated - 2 damage.
Keth'ra took a wound. 
Unnatural - 2 damage.
Shield - 4 damage.

16 damage. Four trays.

Bonecaster cannot match that. No way. 

Maybe Bonecaster has a place in some meta's but it doesn't in mine. If people have success with it, more power to you but it doesn't in mine. 

As for the skill, it's a nice finisher but it can also throw you a game if you just use it willy-nilly. I found that I use it once every five or six games. 
 

I haven't played with or against Kingsbane Kethra. I'm willing to accept that it is just the better build in a vacuum.

The one thing that rings true for me though is  @Church14's "rule of 8".  The fact that you can only get so many trays of width into melee is what makes ranged units good.

Bonecaster Kethra has been solid in many of our games because she can reliably bust armor at range without having to squeeze into melee.  I see her in lists running 2 to 3 units of 2x1 spined threshers and 2 smallish units of flesh rippers. In these lists she gets work done while the battlefield is crowded with these guys getting engaged in round 2. Maybe it's possible that Kingsbane Kethra with vipers will be better than this setup... But my experience is that bonecaster Kethra with Threshers and rippers in front of her is definitely not bad, even without the surges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/9/2018 at 9:17 AM, Viktus106 said:

Personally, Bonecaster Keth'ra just doesn't have the minerals, not when compared to Unnatural Shield of Kingsbones Keth'ra. The sheer threat she poses typically wins me games.

No one wants to charge her.
No one wants to be charged by her. 
Heroes on one wound left with Keth'ra yet to activate are generally going to die from her skill. 

I remember my Keth'ra charging a unit of Maegan Deepwood.

Charge - 2 damage. 
Dice rolled - 6 damage.
Deepwood activated - 2 damage.
Keth'ra took a wound. 
Unnatural - 2 damage.
Shield - 4 damage.

16 damage. Four trays.

Bonecaster cannot match that. No way. 

Maybe Bonecaster has a place in some meta's but it doesn't in mine. If people have success with it, more power to you but it doesn't in mine. 

As for the skill, it's a nice finisher but it can also throw you a game if you just use it willy-nilly. I found that I use it once every five or six games. 
 

Bone caster can match that.  Bone caster is doing something the two turns it takes you to get to that block, and bonecaster is doing something the turn your reforming after killing that block.   Look at what she does in 8 turns, not 1 turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Darth Matthew said:

Bone caster can match that.  Bone caster is doing something the two turns it takes you to get to that block, and bonecaster is doing something the turn your reforming after killing that block.   Look at what she does in 8 turns, not 1 turn.

Boom!  That's one of the key concepts of ranged units.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Darth Matthew said:

Bone caster can match that.  Bone caster is doing something the two turns it takes you to get to that block, and bonecaster is doing something the turn your reforming after killing that block.   Look at what she does in 8 turns, not 1 turn.

I see where you are coming from and I appreciate she does work for other people in a ranged capacity. For me, the lack of surge ability and the lower armor just makes her less of a threat. 

Perhaps it's a mentality thing, I honestly only use Keth'ra to kill one unit a game and if she does that then typically she has gained her points back. With Bonecaster, there is the temptation to have her sit by a unit and fire into an engaged enemy. Since our meta is very panic heavy, I really don't like the idea of Keth'ra doing maybe 4 damage and then causing a betrayal or flee in terror on the unit she was helping. 

I'll continue to play around with the build but honestly, Kings is the one for me at the moment. Maybe we will get a Uthuk version of Dimorian Blades which will open up some of the hero playstyles. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...