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Why do people quit because of the conversion set cost?

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6 minutes ago, FlashBackJack said:

Ok here’s my view

yes I like the idea and possibly some of the changes 

but being in Australia this is going to seriously cost me

(just check the prices of what ships already cost us)

I have all factions with a crazy number of each ship 

I also have 2 of each epic ship but only one Tantive IV

in my case it’s going to cost me 2 con packs (good name)for each and 1 box set

(I already bought 3 original and 3 updated)

But I don’t know if this will be enough to field my ships I own so 

So.. I’ll wait for the app  

Work out how much I’m going to have to spend then fork out a F##king load of cash to just play again 

I knew some senior people at games workshop in the uk and this would be a bad idea even for them 

and they are monsters when it comes to cash grabs 

FFG need to release the app ASAP and then state exactly what will be in each box

im not going to be happy to buy multiple con kits only to find I need to rebuy one of each ship to get the other pilots etc 

in summary a great idea but very badly managed

FFG please get on the front foot and fix this 

 

 

 

 

I’m in the same boat as you, but I intend to use proxied cards or squad builder print outs, and third party dials where appropriate/necessary. There’s no way I’m dropping the cash needed for a full conversion.

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1 hour ago, Chucknuckle said:

Huh? Yeah you get a bunch of options, but you do in a 40K codex too. And you only ever need a single codex, no matter HOW big your collection is.

Thank you. You can have 10,000 models in 40k but only need one single codex plus the core rule book to play. You absolutely cannot say that about 2.0 X-wing.

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5 hours ago, Bulwyf said:

Core rule book and one army book for 40k costs you maybe 80 bucks. To convert my collection in X-wing 2.0 it will cost over $400.00 USD. That's a significant difference in cost. The only hard push you ever have from Games Workship in 40k is to buy the new editions rulebook and your particular army rulebook. Both FFG and GW are going to push new models, no one is faulting them for that.

Is that 400$ to convert a single faction, or multiple factions? If it's for multiple factions, it should be compared with the cost of multiple factions in 40k (rulebook+several codexes). If it's a single faction, then you probably have more ships than the vast majority of people, and more ships than it will likely be legal to play in a single game (needing 8 conversion kits would lead me to assume you have at least 16 ships of a given type). For the 'average' customer, the price is likely way more reasonable. 

 

There are also multiple ways to push new products:

- FFG will re-release ships, and provide users with card packs so they don't need to buy models they already have. 

 

- GW re-releases kits and make sure the options that weren't present in older kits are the best, so you're handicapping yourself on the table if you don't replace your existing models. 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Huh? Yeah you get a bunch of options, but you do in a 40K codex too. And you only ever need a single codex, no matter HOW big your collection is.

That's if you've already fronted a lot of money to buy more models than you need to field in a standard game 

I could barely afford one army, let alone everything you need to run multiple armies even within the same faction

For a fraction of that price, I can run tons of lists of all 3 factions in 1.0. in 2.0, said configurations might actually be viable 

In Warhammer, several of my key units would have become crap and required replacing, further jacking up the required investment

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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7 hours ago, Bulwyf said:

 

Thank you. You can have 10,000 models in 40k but only need one single codex plus the core rule book to play. You absolutely cannot say that about 2.0 X-wing.

40K is a game based off of combat with tons of models while X-Wing is a skirmish game. You need a lot of models for 40K. You don't for X-Wing. Plus, you have to paint those while X-Wing is prepainted (thus you don't have to buy paints or spend time assembling and painting your models). 

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I'm not sure that the comparisons to 40K are necessarily helping anyone at this point.  I think the ballpark numbers for buying a new codex and rulebook for 40 K as a minimum requirement and a new core and one faction conversion kit for Xwing are approximately the same.  I'm sure FFG is well aware of that.  But the problem with parsing out the "true cost" is that the games are very very different.  Xwing collectors have enormous numbers of ships compared to the number you use in a single battle.  40K players tend to use huge numbers of minis in a single battle but only have one or two actual armies with a few variants.  And the whole way the games behave are different.  So the nitpicky details are just too different to be useful.

If you are going to upgrade Xwing and require new cardboard and new pilot and upgrade cards for each ship and each faction, then it's tough to argue that FFG is really gouging for what they are doing.  I think the debatable issue is whether we needed all new cardboard to move Xwing forward.  If you think yes, then I think (again) that it's tough to argue FFG is gouging anyone - even though the total cost for many people is going to be high.  If you think no, then I think there's no realistic cost for the current upgrade method that is going to make you happy.

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1 hour ago, LifeGain said:

40K is a game based off of combat with tons of models while X-Wing is a skirmish game. You need a lot of models for 40K. You don't for X-Wing. Plus, you have to paint those while X-Wing is prepainted (thus you don't have to buy paints or spend time assembling and painting your models). 

? That’s rich.  Let’s go full beard right now and point out when I started in 40K (Rogue Trader days), it was a skirmish game that only needed about 15-25 models.  Epic was for full armies... and I had 10,000+ points of just Space Marines for epic.  Where’s that game now?

Oh, they announced an eventual (pending) relaunch of epic (sort of), but changed the scale so none of your old miniatures would be usable.

 

Bringing this back to X-Wing, the 2.0 announcement has motivated me to pull out my collection again, and I actually bought a couple of ships yesterday (U-Wing and Striker).  First real purchases I’ve made for X-Wing in years (Ghost doesn’t count, I bought that one because the ship was nice and my boy and I were watching Rebels).  I’m planning to start playing 1.0 again in a couple of weeks, and I’m looking forward to playing 2.0.  I haven’t played since Armada was released pretty much, never played X-Wing competitively, but that’s looking like it’s going to change now.

Edited by emsgoof

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I play Rebel/Resistance almost exclusively.  I typically run lists that include 4 or 5 Y-Wings.  I don't care about "the meta".   I don't play many tournaments.  I have also played Epic games in which I run swarms of Y-Wings, K-Wings and other ships.

In view of my play style and my investment in 1.0, I am very unhappy about being forced to spend $$$ to convert or seeing my very large collection of ships become so much scrap plastic.

For many years, I was a 40K player.  What drove me out of 40K was GW's relentless pimping of plastic crack, insanely high prices, and edition change after edition change, all of which were nothing but money grabs.  I found X-Wing to be the gaming alternative I was looking for, in large part because it seemed to be the exact opposite of the 40K racket.

With 2.0, I feel like I've been GW'd again.

Rage quit?  No, nor reprising Death Holy Death's YouTube protest.  Substantially less enthusiasm for the game?  Probably.

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1 hour ago, emsgoof said:

? That’s rich.  Let’s go full beard right now and point out when I started in 40K (Rogue Trader days), it was a skirmish game that only needed about 15-25 models.  Epic was for full armies... and I had 10,000+ points of just Space Marines for epic.  Where’s that game now?

Oh, they announced an eventual (pending) relaunch of epic (sort of), but changed the scale so none of your old miniatures would be usable.

 

How is that rich? I am pointing out what both games are and what each entails. The two are not really comparable. And even if you are merely pointing out that WH40K started small and went big, that does not mean that X-Wing will. Also, Epic was a whole another scale compared to Rogue Trader so that is essentially starting a new game. X-Wing is the same scale throughout and Epic is an optional add-on. 

I am excited for 2.0 also :) 

Edited by LifeGain

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Having thought about it, and the 22 years ive been playing warhammer, I think its incredibly difficult to make direct comparisons.  There are just too many variables especially with GW games to take into account.  

The only real fact I'd feel comfortable asserting is that X Wing is cheaper to get into, but both entail a large maintenance fee if you will.  Neither id consider cheap either as a casual or conpetitive player.

That said, and as a lifetime player of various miniature games, I expected there to be a cost associated with a second edition of x wing.  I think that's the real difference in why I am for now totally OK with how FFG is handling the switch.  That and the fact that I felt like the game needed it.  

The worst thing they could have done was try to force everyone to start completely over with no conversions at all, followed by the bleak future of continuing to limp forward with an ever growing number of errata and expensive (not to mention very noob unfriendly) fixes.

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1 hour ago, DarthEnderX said:

I'm certainly not going to quit over the conversion kit, but I'm not a fan of it.

I just have a pet peeve about buying things I don't need.  I had a problem with it with Upgrade cards in 1st edition, I'm having a problem with it with the conversion kit in 2nd.

Uh...you DEFINITELY need the new cardboard

Just made a thread detailing some of the reasons why the UI changes were 10000% necessary to break out from the ridiculously limited 1.0 design space 

I don't just mean "you literally need it for 2.0"  I mean "an actual, significant redesign WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE without converting all these cards and bases into a different format"

The cost can be an issue, albeit nothing compared to GW 

The necessity of these new pieces, however, cannot be argued 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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On Friday, May 04, 2018 at 9:00 PM, mekros said:

Honestly, I don’t understand these debates. If you don’t like the model FFG is presenting... walk away...

I hope 2.0 is a cleanse of all the negativity and haters.

Please... please... walk away...

Cheers!

Probably only in your dreams, sadly enough. There is already the "2.0 Tie Advance is meh" whining and ******* thread.

Btw, I proposed some time ago restricted lists for competitive play, some power combos not allowed, that would have gone along way fixing many issues in 1.0 without fallout for casual players, just due to some excesses in 100/6 hypercompetition (or bad development, bad playtesting, or maybe even purposefully letting pass OP combos by some playtesters to have a free shot in the early moments after a new FAQ).

I have a medium sized collection. Fortunately I abstained from TFA area ships, that saves me a lot costs IF I convert. But, in my family I am playing both with 3 of my kids at home (100/6, scenarios, HotAc, EPIC!!) AND at the local club. It is thus not practical to keep to just 1.0, cause the club is converting to 2.0 (not the time and energy to remember two rule sests, there is a real life, ya know). Or have stop both me and the kids from going to the club.

I am really annoyed that for the stupid damage deck you have to buy a 2.0 core, with 2 TIEs and 1 X. I have some 4-5? X-wings and some 10-11? TIE fighters. I do not need any more of these! Guess, with 4 people playing, how many core sets I need? 

Wtf, why didn't FFG not put a promo x-wing damage into rebel con, TIE fighter damage promo into Empire con, Kihraxz damage promo in the scum con?

People saying, it is just the cost of one wave. From the last 3 waves I bought 5 single ships in total. So for me at least, it is far more than just the cost of a wave, cause I am selectively buying, also often partly completing waves far far later, partly second hand. I have a lot of small bases, I think only 4 large ones (wanting spacefighters fighting not fat OP freighters ditching it out), aggrevating the conversion problem. My collection slowly accumulated over 3 years. One conversion pack is not enough, as we cannot play against each other with that. So I need 2+ stupid new cores, 1 rebel, 1 empire , at least 1 (probably 2) scum con packs. That is a ton of money. Guesstimate right now 42% of what I already invested. I excluded the investment into Epic ships, because these are UNPLAYABLE now.

People say, just swap. Yeah right, cause there is going to be an overabundance of the dials and stuff of the most wanted ships- in your dreams. Fact is aggrevating by the fact that I am European based, smaller populace country, much smaller player base, much smaller pool to swap with.

Directly ordering from US is also out, due to the stupid shipping cost from the US. (And due to a certain man with orange hairnstarting trade war there has been already extra costum overhead introduced on stuff coming from outside EU).

APART FROM THAT:

Who guarantees that the power creep is not ensuing in 2.0 about 2 waves from now? Looks like we already AGAIN have the syndrome of the "piling everything on the top dogs" (namely force points on ps6 pilots).

And the moment FFG looses the license, version 2.0 has a problem, cause the app, and with it all info about point costs AND upgrade slots is gone. 

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4 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

*snort*

When I used to say this in 1.0, people always screamed back "NO, IT SHOULD ALL BE BALANCED. "

balance, like everything, is relative. just like "best"

"best" in 1.0 had a pretty insurmountable gap attached to it that you could only close with very specific lists. as long as this isn't the case, inevitable imbalances will be fine. Playing a disadvantaged squad isn't ideal but it is unavoidable (if it your DESTINY!!!!!). Playing a squad that is simply screwed no matter what you do, because the "best" just takes a big, smelly **** on the soul of the majority of the game...yeah, no bueno

Edited by ficklegreendice

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9 hours ago, BigBadAndy said:

If you think no, then I think there's no realistic cost for the current upgrade method that is going to make you happy.

what bothers me with the people being outraged is that we simply don't know much yet. Can't we just wait until we get more information and then decide? Same for the other side: why preorder now?

Maybe the cardboard allows some clever new mechanics and the lines allow FFG to (somewhat) futureproof a lot of ships and these new mechanics could justify some of the cost?

But we don't know yet! Why the outrage now when we have no clue yet?

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17 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Uh...you DEFINITELY need the new cardboard

Not for the ships I don't have.  Which, considering I only collect TIEs, is a good chunk of it.

I am COMPLETELY for all the new changes coming in 2.0.  I just think the Conversion Kits should have been sold individually, rather than only as a single giant box set.

13 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

what bothers me with the people being outraged is that we simply don't know much yet.

I know Maarek Stele isn't a Force user.  That's enough for me to be outraged!

Edited by DarthEnderX

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19 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

what bothers me with the people being outraged is that we simply don't know much yet. Can't we just wait until we get more information and then decide? Same for the other side: why preorder now?

Maybe the cardboard allows some clever new mechanics and the lines allow FFG to (somewhat) futureproof a lot of ships and these new mechanics could justify some of the cost?

But we don't know yet! Why the outrage now when we have no clue yet?

It’s a fair point, but we do know some things already and you can see people getting mired in splitting hairs over the details.  As far as outrage and over-enthusiasm I thinks some (not all) of that is just that forum posts as a communication medium amplify the sense of emotion.

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I’ll take a stab at offering a sane reply to your questions, OP.  But, keep in mind that I’m standing near the fence- not on the fence, and on the “quitting side” of it, but I’m looking at the fence and wondering if there might be some nice stuff on the other side I’ll eventually want to be a part of. 

For now, though, this is my calculus- I live in the middle of nowhere, and my play group for ALL games I play consists of 4-5 people. (4 regulars, and one who joins when he’s in town.). I provide all of the ships for the entire group. We play a lot of non-X-Wing games, and we only get together to play once a week, assuming none of us get sucked into working overtime on the weekend. We haven’t had X-wing on the table since January. 

So, here’s the logic- there isn’t a meta player in the group; we just fly what looks fun at the scale we’re playing for the session. So, broken meta isn’t a concern. None of us spends much time outside of gaming night’s theory crafting or list building. Many of the broken combos therefore also are not a problem. That being the case, does 2.0 do anything to improve our game enough to justify a minimum of $140 to update (I could skip the Scum upgrade, as we tend to go Rebellion vs Empire, and ignore the scum ships we have as it is)?  By contrast, my 1.0 collection will be complete and satisfying for another $50-$60, save for a few ships that I doubt we’ll ever see due to the Mouse shutdown of the old EU. 

Keep in mind that I haven’t bought much from wave 9 onward. A U-wing and a Striker found themselves in my collection, but nothing else from the recent waves. Therefore, the upgrade kits also have a lot in them I can’t use without also buying additional models. 

For me, it isn’t that the conversion kits or the starter are too expensive. For what they are and what they’ll do, they’re actually very awesome. I am simply weighing if the cost for an upgrade makes any sense with a game that I a.) rarely play, and b.) don’t have any problems with in its current form. 

I realize, of course, that this is only my personal take on the subject. I don’t know if anyone else is in a similar position or not. But, for ME, this is why the conversion to second edition and the cost thereof may lead me to quit, or, more accurately, maintain my current collection and play a game which lacks official support. 

Essentially, I don’t see a benefit for my gaming group and I which is compelling enough to justify the expense.

on the other hand, those who can afford to focus on their preferred faction only, or who play a lot more and face broken meta builds are getting a great deal, here, if they want to keep their squadrons flying. 

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