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Why do people quit because of the conversion set cost?

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7 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

If you have to spend $350 to upgrade your whole collection you have FAR, FAR than $250 or even $350 worth of miniatures you get to play out of the deal.

To be fair, your math assumes high efficiency of the conversions.  In reality most people who need to buy multiple kits will be buying them for multiples of one or two ships and then tossing most of the conversions out.  

Again, discussions of the relative merit/value of the conversion kits are fundamentally linked to how much value you place on the reboot.  The phrases “for just $x00.00 you get to convert hundreds of models to the new game!” And “Why should I have to spend $x00.00 just to use the ships I already spent $x00.00 to obtain!?” Are both perfectly accurate representations of the facts.  Just from a very different viewpoint.  I’m not sure anyone is going to progress this way.

For me the math is about whether I want to pay the cost in terms of both money and hassle (and for me it’s a huge hassle) just to maintain the fun fiction in my head that I will be playing in Xwing organized play events.

As far as the overall value of the conversions that’s going to vary from individual to individual.  But I do think it’s fair to say that having conversions is far better than not having them and that it’s clear at least FFG is trying to make it possible for people to move into 2.0 with their current collection.  

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So I have a query about the cards (pilot and upgrade) included in the Conversion kits.

My impression is that every pilot card and upgrade card that will come out with the 2.0 versions of the ships will be included in the conversion kit. So if you bought the Rebels kit you would have the same cards that are packaged with the new B-wing when it comes out, and likewise for every 1.0 ship. That means the content of all the re-releases have been finalized no? You're essentially getting the cards early. Further, theoretically, if the B-wing expansion pack came out next September and was one of the last ships to be re-released, you'd be able to play the B-wing before any new player does. Couldn't that shift the balance of matches in favour of old players?

Is this right? Some conversations I've seen around the net seem to indicate that the kits will only include Wave 1 cards, and that future cards from 1.0 ships will come in separate and new conversion kits so you don't have to buy the model again. Is this simply confusion over potential third releases of 1.0 ships (ie, paint etc.) not covered by the intial re-release?

Anyone know the confirmed word on this? Thanks.

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3 minutes ago, redxavier said:

My impression is that every pilot card and upgrade card that will come out with the 2.0 versions of the ships will be included in the conversion kit. So if you bought the Rebels kit you would have the same cards that are packaged with the new B-wing when it comes out, and likewise for every 1.0 ship. That means the content of all the re-releases have been finalized no

I can certainly see where you have this impression.  But I don’t thunk it’s certain that this is the case.  We have yet to see a definitive contents list for thenconversion kits and most of what is known about the cards is coming from people squinting at promo photos.  Considering the sheer number of cards being promised in the conversion kits I would expect that new expansions for old ships will at least MOSTLY contain the same cards.  But I can’t shake the feeling that FFG will need to incentivize purchase of the new expansions somehow.  There are some “classy” ways to do that like offering alternate art cards or premium features on the models (movable s-foils).  But I also think it’s too much to expect that they have mapped out every upgrade card they want to introduce to each faction in the next 3 years before the base game launches. So I would not use words like “all” and “every” when talking about the upgrade cards and pilots at this point. Certainly it’s true that you will get a lot of cards with the conversion kits.

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Sadly at my wargames club it didn't cause anyone to quit, they made that decision over a year ago. The prospect of paying to fix a game FFG broke themselves has done nothing to resurrect X Wing. Armada meanwhile has a small but enthusiastic player base amongst us grizzled 40 and 50 something year old historical gamers who fancy a change from pike phalanxes from time to time and know a fun, reasonably balanced game when we see it.

Not trying to cause a flame war but like it or not that's the way it is in this part of northern England.

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I also think 2.0 is not for me. I have many ships both Rebels and Imperial but majority of them is pre-Wave 6. Then FFG went crazy with EU ships which are mostly unknow to us, scum faction, disney cartoon stuff and EP7 we did no like at all. So X-Wing basically ended around wave 5-6 for us and we are fine. It is still playable and it will remain playable instead of 2.0 once their app will be unavailable. I do not need to quit and sell my collection as many 2.0 blind fanboys think I can still play 1.0 without problems.

2.0 was needed mostly due to breaking the game with new OP cards and mechanics with each new wave. Game bloated way too much. Tournaments are not about flying ships better but buying packs with ships you do not want for cards to combine them in the most OP way the devs probably did not think about nor balanced it that way. I like many ideas of 2.0 but not the app as it is something that should be optional but not essential in regards of longevity and compatibility.

Also the transition costs are way too much in my opinion as the conversion kits are tailored more in favour of tournament players but not casual Epic ones. I need dials for multiple basic ships from original trilogy but with that I have to buy lot of stuff for ships I do not have + core set with X-wings and Tie I already have plenty of. 3rd party market is nice if you live in US but here not many people play so international shipping prevents me from going that way. Also ships I need would be in great demand so it could still be cheaper to buy expensive coversion kit.

Edited by JanW

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2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Me too.

I suspect in a year, there will be a new meta, new broken combos, and a whole lot of players crying that "I converted for this??!!"

Something will always be best

This does not mean you stop striving for improvement

The shorter the gap between "good" and "the best", the better the game will be

Making no effort to strive for balance because "their will always be a meta" is short sighted and lazy 

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11 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Neither the cops nor a Wizards of the Coast TO has come to break up one of my kitchen table games, so they seem legal enough.

Since you seem to not understand, I'll say it again:

I ONLY PLAY AT THE KITCHEN TABLE AND COULD GIVE A RATS *** WHAT IS "SANCTIONED" EITHER FOR MAGIC OR X-WING.

The point, again, is that all Magic cards work together.  As a game.  Still.

This is not true for XWM 1.0 and 2.0.

and the star wars police wont stop you from putting a resistance a -wing on the kitchen table with squad pricing set as you see fit. what's the problem?

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10 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Me too.

I suspect in a year, there will be a new meta, new broken combos, and a whole lot of players crying that "I converted for this??!!"

 

But with app driven costs and upgrades you cannot go back at home to return like 1-3 years to meta you like. In 1.0 you can simply put some ships and cards aside.

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5 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

and the star wars police wont stop you from putting a resistance a -wing on the kitchen table with squad pricing set as you see fit. what's the problem?

Well, mostly the PS/Initiative disconnect and the lack of an upgrade bar.

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1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, mostly the PS/Initiative disconnect and the lack of an upgrade bar.

They have upgrade slots but not on the cards. I guess you could always refer to the FREE app and get a basis of slots, costs and then determine Pilot Skill with your own house rules. I gotta be honest, I don't play epic like you seem to but if I did, this concept sounds super appealing and fun to me.  

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24 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Something will always be best

This does not mean you stop striving for improvement

The shorter the gap between "good" and "the best", the better the game will be

Making no effort to strive for balance because "their will always be a meta" is short sighted and lazy 

But that was not the point I was making. I was commenting on FFGs business model. Giving us big incentives to buy new expansion by making them the newest, hottest stuff in the game. Now the new squad builder should help to release powerful stuff some time later adjust the point costs and even drive sales of older expansions via better balancing. 

But the biggest incentive for FFG to make the game balanced is the initial 2.0 release. That's the point when they had the longest time working on it and the biggest financial motivation to get it right, because a huge amount of money is depending on it. 

Striving in general for better balance is a noble cause, but noblesse does not bring food on the table. 

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7 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

But that was not the point I was making. I was commenting on FFGs business model. Giving us big incentives to buy new expansion by making them the newest, hottest stuff in the game. Now the new squad builder should help to release powerful stuff some time later adjust the point costs and even drive sales of older expansions via better balancing. 

But the biggest incentive for FFG to make the game balanced is the initial 2.0 release. That's the point when they had the longest time working on it and the biggest financial motivation to get it right, because a huge amount of money is depending on it. 

Striving in general for better balance is a noble cause, but noblesse does not bring food on the table. 

I don't believe FFG sets out to make the new hotness in every expansion

So many expansions upon release are so MEH it's impossible to fathom that they're going for a GW style power creep release

Heroes of the resistance wasn't **** next to imp vets

Scum for every wave apart from the jump, asajj, and SCURRG were notoriously underwhelming

Speaks more to design by committee than intentional power creep

Plus the design constraints of 1.0 really obviously strained the developers

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Heroes of the resistance became quite the hot stuff during based on upgrade cards and later releases. 
Same for example for guns for hire, which simply had harpoons. 

And than there is the autothruster and crack shot releases in scum expansions. ?

There is a strong indication that FFG wanted to have at least one power card in each expansions, even when internal testing did not show stellar performance of the ship itself. Furthermore they were very careful with scum at first when reputation was at stake, but a lot more lenient in later releases. 

Having balance overall is still always in FFGs interest, especially as better reputation than GW is selling units for them. ?, but it's not the only interest they have.

Edited by SEApocalypse

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I can't answer for anyone else.  I can share a couple of thoughts.  Note: I think I will be getting the Second Edition conversion kits.

 

On 5/3/2018 at 5:26 AM, 235711 said:

Why do people rather quit the game instead of buying the new starter kit and ONE conversion set (100 $)? I am aware of the fact, that one conversion set is not enough to field two dozens of X-Wings at once or all three factions. But probably it will be enough to have a lot of fun in the first few month of 2.0. Probably even more fun than in the last year of X-Wing 1.0.

Two for each faction may cover most of my needs, so that is six just to start with.  Add the First Order, Resistance and Epic.  That can really up for a lot of people.

What was the expectation of the people who want to quit? (regarding the future of X-Wing and the price tag of conversions)

For me this was kind of what I was expecting.  But I have see some people with some wild or even ridiculous exceptions though.  Maybe that could have done something different.  I wasn't in those planning meeting, I really can't say.  Maybe, like a previous post, one conversion kit per ship. But that adds up too and you might end up with tons of extra cards; then people would complain about paying for cards they don't need.

Why do people, who want to quit, do not take do it yourself solutions into consideration?

I have, in the past, used proxy cards.  I'm hoping Fantasy Flight Games (FFG) provides a PDF of all upgrades that is printable. and keeps it up to date.

What do the people do with their ships when they quit?

Initially I got into this game because I only wanted a few ships for display.  Only after that did I start playing and now, I have far more than I ever imagined.  I did quit in Wave IX.  I kept what I had and played casual only with far less upgrades, but even that was rare.  If I get back in only to quite again.  I'll do that same.

What could FFG do now (with X-Wing 2.0 announced), to keep you playing?

Right now I don't play X-Wing, I've moved onto another game which has most thing X-Wing doesn't.  So this 2.0 announcement may bring be back in.  Time will tell.  If I do get Wave 2.0 Starter and Conversions then I'll most likely be back at square one except spending a lot more.  We'll see I guess. 

 

 

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On 5/3/2018 at 8:52 AM, Herowannabe said:

THANK YOU! This man speaks wisdom, everybody. 

FFG is not forcing anybody to buy anything. Your collection is not invalid- it still does all the exact same things it did last week. You can continue to play and use your ships just like you have always done, so long as you’re able to find someone to play X-Wing 1.0 with you. And if you can’t find someone willing to play X-wing 1.0, then it’s not FFG who is twisting your arm to upgrade to 2nd edition, it’s your friends and fellow gamers.

 

 

Therin lies the rub for more than a few, I think. 

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So my usual go-to source for X-wing stuff has put up their preorder pages for 2.0, and the conversion kits are £33 each, the core set is £26 and the expansion packs are £15. Not bad I guess (we could conceivably have seen a mere currency symbol change).

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6 hours ago, BigBadAndy said:

To be fair, your math assumes high efficiency of the conversions.  In reality most people who need to buy multiple kits will be buying them for multiples of one or two ships and then tossing most of the conversions out.  

My math there was actually only for 1 set of conversion kits.  And remember, it was a very conservative estimate (100 ships, while you get like 37-40 per pack, so probably 110-120, and $15 per ship, ignoring all the $20 or large base ships costing more).  At $350 listed in the post I quoted, you're looking at 2 of each conversion kit and a core set, which is far more ships worth.  And ayone who tosses out most of the converisons is wasting money.  If you only need a couple hsips extra, I can pretty much guarantee you could get them for way cheaper on the secondary market instead of buying a whole nother conversion kit.  And you can probbaly sell the extra conversions you don't need from a kit to make back some of the cost (or trade conversions you don't need for ones you do to avoid buying an extra kit)

5 hours ago, BigBadAndy said:

I can certainly see where you have this impression.  But I don’t thunk it’s certain that this is the case.  We have yet to see a definitive contents list for thenconversion kits and most of what is known about the cards is coming from people squinting at promo photos.  Considering the sheer number of cards being promised in the conversion kits I would expect that new expansions for old ships will at least MOSTLY contain the same cards.  But I can’t shake the feeling that FFG will need to incentivize purchase of the new expansions somehow.  There are some “classy” ways to do that like offering alternate art cards or premium features on the models (movable s-foils).  But I also think it’s too much to expect that they have mapped out every upgrade card they want to introduce to each faction in the next 3 years before the base game launches. So I would not use words like “all” and “every” when talking about the upgrade cards and pilots at this point. Certainly it’s true that you will get a lot of cards with the conversion kits.

They said multiple times on stream that veteran players won't have to buy rereleased hsips to get new pilots/upgrades, there will be some path to obtain them outside of the packs.  They didn't go into details, but speculation is mini-conversion kits either per ship or per faction with future rerelease waves.  And you DO get every wave 1 single-ship expansion card in the conversion kits.

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There's a lot of text here I don't have time to read at the moment, but I will say that the OTHER choice was all those ships we've spend hundreds of dollars on are instantly unusable when 2.0 drops.

 

This is, by huge unquantifiable margin, the lesser evil of the two.  Second Edition was an inevitability, and it was always going to be a weird transition.  I don't think anyone can really argue that they'd rather have a second edition wherein all of their current product becomes paperweight and is illegal going forward.

Edited by Engine25

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16 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

You said nothing about sending them money, only proof of purchase.

i wrote 1 or 2, but i guess i typo'd the dollar sign. my bad, i can see how that led to miscommunication

point is a conversion kit is a bid by FFG to retain current players as customers.  while I am delighted about the new rule system and many of the changes, its impossible to see this as proper implimentation.

FFG has already stated that they are selling new versions of all the ships which will come with the rest of the pilots and upgrades, so you might buy the rebel upgrade kit but still need to buy all those miniatures again to play the best pilots.  for example Boba Fett might only come with the new slave 1

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6 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

i wrote 1 or 2, but i guess i typo'd the dollar sign. my bad, i can see how that led to miscommunication

That makes more sense :P.  I'd be all for the option to get single conversions for a couple bucks (which I expect will be doable from people selling what they don't need, but an official avenue would be nice, and more convenient)

6 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

point is a conversion kit is a bid by FFG to retain current players as customers.  while I am delighted about the new rule system and many of the changes, its impossible to see this as proper implimentation.

FFG has already stated that they are selling new versions of all the ships which will come with the rest of the pilots and upgrades, so you might buy the rebel upgrade kit but still need to buy all those miniatures again to play the best pilots.  for example Boba Fett might only come with the new slave 1

You won't have to buy any new miniatures to get new upgrades or pilots for existing ships (other than the core set).  They said multiple times on stream during the demo games there will be a way for veteran players to get the new pilots and upgrades (and cardboard presumably) from rereleased ships without having to buy the full expansion and getting another model.

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7 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

i wrote 1 or 2, but i guess i typo'd the dollar sign. my bad, i can see how that led to miscommunication

point is a conversion kit is a bid by FFG to retain current players as customers.  while I am delighted about the new rule system and many of the changes, its impossible to see this as proper implimentation.

FFG has already stated that they are selling new versions of all the ships which will come with the rest of the pilots and upgrades, so you might buy the rebel upgrade kit but still need to buy all those miniatures again to play the best pilots.  for example Boba Fett might only come with the new slave 1

First, it isn’t actually impossible to see this as a proper implementation as many people seem to accepting it as such. You might not see it as proper (and that is your right), but that doesn’t mean it is impossible.

Second, FFG has said they are going to have more conversion kits for each wave so veteran players don’t have to buy the model. This has been pointed out to you several times. I can only assume that your ignoring of this fact is because it hurts your narrative. 

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Honestly, I don’t understand these debates. If you don’t like the model FFG is presenting... walk away...

I hope 2.0 is a cleanse of all the negativity and haters.

Please... please... walk away...

Cheers!

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