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Why do people quit because of the conversion set cost?

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5 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

They will have smaller conversion kits as well because they don't want people to have to buy multiples of the $50 Rebel/Imperial/Scum conversion kits.

Just because I'm sure people do not read this. It removes the reason to be salty, after all.

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8 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

 

D) But I don't have enough dials for all of my ships now. Well...they don't think you can use 15 Tie Fighters in the new game... so you already have tiles and dials you are not using right?

 


On Monday we had a Casual Epic game with 14 TIEs. So YES! Not everyone plays tournament rules.

(Dash got ran over by a Raider! It was a sad day for me.)

Edited by Jadotch

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I play with a casual group of roughly 16 total players. Some of us go to stores or tournaments. Our collections are quite large - mine would take a minimum of 7 conversion kits alone. We play with all the pieces. We play other games too but like x-wing because the cost is relatively low. These changes create big disparities for us in what we can and can’t play and limit the desire to make new purchases because the game is not actually backwards compatible without the conversion kits.

I didn’t expect any changes at all or possibly just continued FAQ updates and errata. Tournament scene is a smaller chunk of the overall pie and none of us casual players in my group were playing abusive stuff that breaks the game. We are being punished for issues caused by others.

What solutions? It’s a new game. V1 won’t be supported, V2 will? I’m confused by this question on offering solutions. A solution is to sell my stuff and play something else. That’s capitalism. With Battletech recovering, new stuff like Giant Killer Robots out, etc. there are so many cool alternatives that are now cheaper.

What will I do? Sell all but a small group of ships and cut my play way down. I’ll jump to new games and play those instead. Others are doing this as used game forums are filling with x wing collections sales. Those that are staying should cash in and get good deals on v1 ships, just remember you’ll need conversion kits.

FFG can’t and shouldn’t do anything. It’s their product. Many of us “filthy casuals” now recognize the game’s target audience isn’t us, it’s tournament players and podcasts. We’re moving on and making it clear why. We haven’t been vocal, we’ve been quietly hearing everyone else shout. Now we are, and we’ll be going away shortly. Problem solved.

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1 minute ago, EastCoast said:

That doesn't seem like any of your business to be honest.

No, it really isn't. But it is an important thing to ask yourself before you say 2.0 is too expensive. If you spent $100-200 per wave, this really is no different. What you are probably saying is "I don't see the value in this" When really...it's an amazing value when you take the emotion out of it. 

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

Just because I'm sure people do not read this. It removes the reason to be salty, after all.

Fact's vs feelings. It's an important thing that people should look at right now.

 

FACT: 2.0 is really not more expensive to buy a core and 3 conversion kits for than buying everything from a standard wave with 1-2 copies of each ship.

FACT: X-Wing wasn't going to last forever in it's current form. The stuff was going to be "uselsess" sooner or later.

Feeling: FFG is launching 2.0 as a cash grab. 

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4 minutes ago, Knave Squawk said:

I play with a casual group of roughly 16 total players. Some of us go to stores or tournaments. Our collections are quite large - mine would take a minimum of 7 conversion kits alone. We play with all the pieces. We play other games too but like x-wing because the cost is relatively low. These changes create big disparities for us in what we can and can’t play and limit the desire to make new purchases because the game is not actually backwards compatible without the conversion kits.

I didn’t expect any changes at all or possibly just continued FAQ updates and errata. Tournament scene is a smaller chunk of the overall pie and none of us casual players in my group were playing abusive stuff that breaks the game. We are being punished for issues caused by others.

What solutions? It’s a new game. V1 won’t be supported, V2 will? I’m confused by this question on offering solutions. A solution is to sell my stuff and play something else. That’s capitalism. With Battletech recovering, new stuff like Giant Killer Robots out, etc. there are so many cool alternatives that are now cheaper.

What will I do? Sell all but a small group of ships and cut my play way down. I’ll jump to new games and play those instead. Others are doing this as used game forums are filling with x wing collections sales. Those that are staying should cash in and get good deals on v1 ships, just remember you’ll need conversion kits.

FFG can’t and shouldn’t do anything. It’s their product. Many of us “filthy casuals” now recognize the game’s target audience isn’t us, it’s tournament players and podcasts. We’re moving on and making it clear why. We haven’t been vocal, we’ve been quietly hearing everyone else shout. Now we are, and we’ll be going away shortly. Problem solved.

absolutely, you have a valid point. 

 

counter argument: if FFG stopped supporting X-Wing as a whole, or FFG lost the Star Wars licence... would you still play in your non-tournament format with all your stuff? 

Eventually it will fizzle out because of lack of support. It's what happens when a game gets long in the tooth. Happened with Mechwarrior. Happened with Battletech too. (I'm so excited for it making a comeback by the way) 

 

There will always be those that play it as a beer and pretzels game. and x-wing 1.0 has always been more fun outside of the tournament structure.

Edited by Wiredin

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1 minute ago, Wiredin said:

Fact's vs feelings. It's an important thing that people should look at right now. 

speaking of which: I also want to know whether running 5 A-wings is still possible. My SO is anxious for her 5 Strikers. But we wait until we know.

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 I play rebels and empire and I also have some Scum ships like 2 Firespray.

3 faction will become 5 in the new edition, so a minimum of 5 update kits and the new start set ...

So I'll have to pay 200-240 € just to keep playing with my toys. And I already paid.

And this purchase does not let me play all the tie-fighter, x-wing or b-wing, or 2 Firespray, which I already have, so I'm a little disappointed because I have to find some dials / missing parts just to be sure I can play them all if I wanted to ...

Obviously, it is also expensive. € 50 for buying only cardboard for a game you already paid.

In addition all the previous cardboard is for the garbage, and it was paid only for the cardboard, due to the useless policy of FFG to take out cartons only in some factions.

BAD, very bad FFG

Edited by nogarder

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For many people, this is a personal choice, and it depends on several factors. To get right to the point, a few people have more money to dump on this than others, and they have because some people have bigger X-Wing collections than others. But more importantly, most people have collections that vary greatly in type and number of models. What also seems to be overlooked is that FFG has little concern other than wanting the fans' money. Remember when Flames of War released a completely new rule book? Owners of the original rules were given the opportunity to get the new rule book for free!

In the end people will make the final decision once they get all the details (seeing the actual rules will help), and then decide what will be the correct choice for them.

However, some people lecturing other people that they're being stupid about this is most certainly not helpful and very narrow minded.

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8 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

$90 for one faction and the core set. How much did you spend on the last wave of ships? 

The thing is, that math is way off. I dont know how much in any way and it may be that you dont want to run more then one of each ship, but I dont play just one faction. Now, again from a guy that has not read up, but doesnt the conversion kits only come with dial and a generic for each ship? So, before I played Dengar+Tel. If I wanted to play Dengar and Tel again...?

Yes, I agree that I dont know if I want to play Dengar and Tel in 2.0, but the example holds true for a lot of the cases. If Ten Numb and Jake becomes the shajtz, are, what use is my 1.0 collection then? I have the 1.0 cards and ships today. Helping much?

Or?

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2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

speaking of which: I also want to know whether running 5 A-wings is still possible. My SO is anxious for her 5 Strikers. But we wait until we know.

I doubt it based on what I've read/heard. But they are saying 4 x-wings is possible? So this doesn't make much sense. I am anxious as well as the A-wing is my favorite and it's important to me that I can spam them and have fun doing it. That's a feeling.

2 minutes ago, nogarder said:

3 faction will become 5 in the new edition, so a minimum of 5 update kits and the new start set ...

So I'll have to pay 200-240 € just to keep playing with my toys. And I already paid.

 

You buy new toys every wave. Just think of this as a new wave. And the Resistance and FO will come in a second wave. When you do that, it starts looking a lot cheaper. yes, you may need multiple kits to field all the plastic you have now... but what if it's not feasible under the new rule set to run all of that in standard play? casual/custom format's is a different story. 

 

The core game is built around the same 100/6 format. There is nothing stopping anyone from still running the old v1 games in your custom format and borrowing some rules from the new game.

 

here's a thought, create house rules to merge the two formats into one super game? have your cake and eat it too! 

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20 minutes ago, Ram said:

The thing is, that math is way off. I dont know how much in any way and it may be that you dont want to run more then one of each ship, but I dont play just one faction. Now, again from a guy that has not read up, but doesnt the conversion kits only come with dial and a generic for each ship? So, before I played Dengar+Tel. If I wanted to play Dengar and Tel again...?

Yes, I agree that I dont know if I want to play Dengar and Tel in 2.0, but the example holds true for a lot of the cases. If Ten Numb and Jake becomes the shajtz, are, what use is my 1.0 collection then? I have the 1.0 cards and ships today. Helping much?

Or?

Where did you get that the conversion kit only comes with generics*? Thats entirely untrue. We know for a fact that all pilots in the X-Wing and other wave 1 expansions are in the conversion kit and we know at minimum that Wedge and Vader are being released in their Wave 1 ships. We can extrapolate that the other ships are also getting unique pilots as well.

 

Edited by mdl0114

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7 minutes ago, EastCoast said:

Genuinely curious, has this been confirmed?

It was in the live stream yesterday. yes. They are looking into "conversion kits" for individual ships in later waves. ie: the 2.0 B-wing comes out, you don't want to buy the model, they will include a conversion pack without the model for that ship. What we don't know if it is individual for one ship, every ship in the wave, multiples of that one ship. it could very well be

"wave X  = A-Wing, Tie Interceptor, Kirakz Fighter" 

Conversion kit contains product for 3-awings. Or it could include 1-awing. Or it could include 1 or more of each ship in the wave.

We don't know what that will look like. But Frank (I think) has come out and said this is happening in one form or another.

7 minutes ago, Ram said:

The thing is, that math is way off. I dont know how much in any way and it may be that you dont want to run more then one of each ship, but I dont play just one faction. Now, again from a guy that has not read up, but doesnt the conversion kits only come with dial and a generic for each ship? So, before I played Dengar+Tel. If I wanted to play Dengar and Tel again...?

Yes, I agree that I dont know if I want to play Dengar and Tel in 2.0, but the example holds true for a lot of the cases. If Ten Numb and Jake becomes the shajtz, are, what use is my 1.0 collection then? I have the 1.0 cards and ships today. Helping much?

Or?

yup, I don't play just one faction. I like to play all factions. $90 is core and one faction. $190 for all three. Still less than I paid for the last wave of ships (granted I did buy 3 Gunboats, 3 Phantom II, 1 Silencer, 1 BSF, 0 Kimos)

So your Dengar/Tel list. The Scum conversion kit does include enough parts to fly 2 jump masters. So you can fly Dengar/Tel right out of the conversion box! 

It hasn't been confirmed, but it has been heavily implied that most if not all pilots from the original game are making it to 2.0 and only the "generic unique" pilots are now being named. They may not have the same abilities or play the way you remember them...but they will be there. (ie: Zeta Leader may now be Dorf Sunderman) 

Now, for scum players everywhere, I totally understand the pain and suffering to buy a core set that you have no need for X-wing and Tie Fighters just so you can get some of the main components to play the game with. 

Edited by Wiredin

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2 minutes ago, EastCoast said:

The app I can handle, but if we are getting into DNA sequencing, I'm out!

oh the app! The app

 

I assume we can print out stuff from the app? So for casual players that don't want to do tournaments... 

Print out the lists and proxy EVERYTHING. We already have dials and base templates. Why can't we still use them? They have arcs on them and everything... the fundamentals haven't changed. Some dials have changed, but man, I got a sharpie. 

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34 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

TL:DR past page 1

 

A) Conversion kits have the individual number of ships in them that they do because that is all you should be able to field in the new game. IE, they only expect you to be able to run 3 awings in a list

B) "They are expecting me to shell out $200 to remain competitive". Okay, how much did all you 3BQD players spend to create your lists? $80 2 copies of Guns for Hire, $20 for Quick Draw, $60 for 3 gunboats. $160. Oh, you didn't own Lightweight Frame, add a striker or aggressor for another $20ish. 

Ba) "But but but, I don't play competitively, I just buy the ships from each wave." Okay. Lets assume you bought ONE of each from the Winter wave. One silencer, Kimo, BSF17, Gunboat, and Sheathapiede. I know you bought more Gunboats than that, maybe even more shuttles and Kimos too... Still aprox $160 if all you did was buy one of each. So if you bought multiples of any of them you are around $200. Also, Guns for Hire came out not too long before that wave, so if you add that in...$200. I looked back, I spent on average $180-$200 per wave not including Ace's packs. This really is no different.

C) "But all the useless dials and stuff I don't need and ships I don't use!" Well, if you bought the example in B for a competitive list you also have 2 star vipers and 2 Kirazk Fighters that you don't use as well. Oh and don't forget about that time you bought two star vipers to get Auto-Thursters for your interceptors or A-Wings only to have the plastic sit on the shelf.

D) But I don't have enough dials for all of my ships now. Well...they don't think you can use 15 Tie Fighters in the new game... so you already have tiles and dials you are not using right?

E) But now I need to buy the new versions of the old ships to get new cards. They came out and said in the live stream yesterday that they are working on a way for you to get the new cards without buying the plastic. But some ships will have no models so buy them anyways because they are cool.

F) But why didn't they do individual kits in the first place?! Have you seen Attack Wing? $10 USD for ONE DIAL kit per ship! My 5 A-wings would have equaled the one conversion kit price.

G) What do I do with all my old cardboard?!?! Play X-Wing 1.0 when you feel the need to play the game that was. I plan on keeping it all to play through the transition period. 

H) All my alt-arts are now worthless! Well yea... But how worth while would they be if FFG suddenly went bankrupt, Disney took away FFG's licence, FFG decided not to support X-wing with no 2.0 coming? They are worth to you the same as they we're before! 

I) But all the money I spent on these things I cannot use anymore?!  How much money have you spent on other consumer products that have lasted 6 years? Chances are most of those consumer products lasted 2. There are probably some of you who buy a new $800-1000 cell phone every year (I personally know a half dozen people who buy a new top of the line iphone yearly..). YOU GOT SIX YEARS out of this stuff, and the prettiest part, the models, are still valuable in the game!!! 

J) They really thought this through. There are two or three awesome threads full of summaries of why they did what they did. There is actually a lot more information coming directly from FFG in forms of video interviews than what is online. While we do have a lot of info we also got very little. SO JUST WAIT AND DON'T JUMP THE SHARK. This game you love, you know... X-Wing... it's going to get better! 

 

Be salty for the sake of being salty. - X-Wing Forums moto. 

A) Did FFG outright say this or are you assuming this?

B) That does not justify the cost of the expansion packs.

C) That still does not justify it.

D) Have they said that? There is still likely Epic play.

E) This is a good point...except the last sentence. That is not necessary to be a part of your argument.

F) Drawing similarities to another game is okay, but that does not mean that is what FFG would have had to do or that the result would be so. FFG could likely have gone barebones upgrade kits. 

G) Good point.

H) The first part is good, but the last part is pure speculation.

I) I would more so make the argument that you can still use them, just not in the way that you had originally intentioned. 

J) They did really think the design changes and the implementation through. 

"Be salty for the sake of being salty"--> You are just trying to get rises from people imo. They have valid complaints (not necessarily right, but they are valid). Keep in mind, I think 2.0 was the right call.

Edited by LifeGain

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I’m having a hard time looking at these conversion kits, looking at Attack Wing’s $10 per individual ship conversion kits, and then sympathizing with people who say they wish they could update just individual ships. I think, like the world’s lotto, that’s an example of stuff people say they want but if it actually happened that way would hate it. The hypothetical 12 TIES player spends $150 instead of $120 at $10/TIE, but unless your niche is 12 TIEs and 0 of every other ship ever made you come out way ahead even before you sell extra defender copies on eBay.

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10 minutes ago, mdl0114 said:

I’m having a hard time looking at these conversion kits, looking at Attack Wing’s $10 per individual ship conversion kits, and then sympathizing with people who say they wish they could update just individual ships. I think, like the world’s lotto, that’s an example of stuff people say they want but if it actually happened that way would hate it. The hypothetical 12 TIES player spends $150 instead of $120 at $10/TIE, but unless your niche is 12 TIEs and 0 of every other ship ever made you come out way ahead even before you sell extra defender copies on eBay.

For people with large sets, it is diminished returns for each kit. The first kit IS a great deal! For I myself will be able to use 90% of it. For the second set Roughly 30%, for the 3rd it is about 5%.

Edited by Jadotch

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Just now, Jadotch said:

For people with large sets, it is diminished returns for each kit. The first set IS a great deal! For I myself will be able to use 90% of it. For the second set Roughly 30%, for the 3rd it is about 5%.

It’s true, but on the other hand for people with large kits having no conversion kit at all would be way worse if the other option is Attack Wing and $10 a ship. If you need to convert 8 TIES and the just 1 of everything else you’re at $100 with the kits. The TIEs alone are $80 in Attack Wing terms, and 1 of everything else is $10 a ship. Even if the prIce were $5 a pack you’re looking at 8 ties costing almost as much as a conversion pack now, on their own.

That said, the developers have said there will be some way of converting to new ships in later waves when they start to get new cards, just haven’t given any details. It could be we get the best of both worlds, otherwise I think eBay is going to be my friend for a couple of ships that I want just 1-2 more of than a conversion kit goes for. I’m pretty confident people will be breaking up conversion kits and selling individual components.

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38 minutes ago, RayGuns said:

Remember when Flames of War released a completely new rule book? Owners of the original rules were given the opportunity to get the new rule book for free!

On the other hand, remember when Flames of War released a new edition and whole factions were simply not updated until much later? V4 Mid-War release was only Germans and British. Soviets won't be done until well past the 2 year mark in the new edition I think. 

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29 minutes ago, RayGuns said:

For many people, this is a personal choice, and it depends on several factors. To get right to the point, a few people have more money to dump on this than others, and they have because some people have bigger X-Wing collections than others. But more importantly, most people have collections that vary greatly in type and number of models. What also seems to be overlooked is that FFG has little concern other than wanting the fans' money. Remember when Flames of War released a completely new rule book? Owners of the original rules were given the opportunity to get the new rule book for free!

In the end people will make the final decision once they get all the details (seeing the actual rules will help), and then decide what will be the correct choice for them.

However, some people lecturing other people that they're being stupid about this is most certainly not helpful and very narrow minded.

Getting a rule book for free is vastly different than getting large amounts of cardboard dials and tokens, and pilot and upgrade cards for free.

I don't believe FFG's only concern is wanting fans' money.  I believe making this statement is also narrow minded.  Even so, it is a business and that is why people go into business - but that is beside the point. 

FFG and a lot of the community saw a need for X-Wing to upgrade to 2.0. FFG upgraded X-Wing to 2.0. Do you expect them to give away the farm to do this? If they truly only wanted the fans' money then they could have simply said "Here is 2.0, your old ships don't work."  Instead, they have said on multiple occasions that they don't want people to have to buy more plastic to enjoy the game they have been playing for years.  They have also stated that they don't want people to have to buy other faction ships to gain access to generic upgrades - this flies in the face of only being concerned about fans' money.

I think $50 for a conversion kit to convert basically a whole faction (really hope they add a 3rd X-Wing to the Rebel kit) is reasonable.

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7 minutes ago, LifeGain said:

A) Did FFG outright say this or are you assuming this?

B) That does not justify the cost of the expansion packs.

C) That still does not justify it.

D) Have they said that? There is still likely Epic play.

E) This is a good point...except the last sentence. That is not necessary to be a part of your argument.

F) Drawing similarities to another game is okay, but that does not mean that is what FFG would have had to do or that the result would be so. FFG could likely have gone barebones upgrade kits. 

G) Good point.

H) The first part is good, but the last part is pure speculation.

I) I would more so make the argument that you can still use them, just not in the way that you had originally intentioned. 

J) They did really think the design changes and the implementation through. 

"Be salty for the sake of being salty"--> You are just trying to get rises from people imo. They have valid complaints (not necessarily right, but they are valid). Keep in mind, I think 2.0 was the right call.

a) Yes. during the livestream yesterday

b) the price of the conversion kits you mean? $50 for a conversion kit with a lot of cardboard and plastic (new bases) and the cards. We can all agree (I think) that the components are high quality. I printed HOTAC, just on glossy high quality hard paper and a bound book, cost me $75 Canadian to print all the components and cut them myself @ Staples. Knowing that...$50 doesn't' seem too bad.  Also take into the account that gross profit and net profit are different. Gross profit on the product might be 30%. But the net profit after they pay everyone for the R&R, packaging costs, etc. is probably more like 5-10% if that.

C) yea.. but I'm trying to put it into perspective of what has happened in the past and how much money "we wasted" back then. Heck, I bought 2 Aggressors for intensity. they are still in the blisters! 

D) yes, epic is something else... they haven't talked about it much. But they did say during the livestream yesterday they choose the number of dials per kit based on how much they think you should be able to field in the new format. For example, I think I heard them say Vader was somewhere between 85-90 points base! So if Vader is half your list... things are going to be different for sure. 

E) valid, just being cheeky haha.

F) for sure, it's not what FFG would have done. I would assume they looked at the market and what other games have done in the past and came up with what they thought was a suitable strategy.

H) for sure it was speculation. but it's valid. I don't think X-wing would have lived on as long as games like Batteltech or Warhammer in the original version. 

I) agreed

J) they really did. the livestream summary thread that was going yesterday has so much fantastic information in it and summaries things very well. I think that Livestream is a much watch for anyone that is apprehensive. 

 

yea, the salty thing was uncalled for... everyones complaints are valid, especially from their point of view. Something I've been trained to do in my job is to realize that a lot of peoples concerns/objections/complaints usually stem from not having all the information, not understanding the information, or being too emotional over the information they do have. 

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