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One weird side-effect of all this 2e nonsense

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1 hour ago, Slash Macbain said:

Haha a "Thank You Letter"

If FFG wants to truly Thank their customers for their long-time investment then they could easily make PDF versions of all conversion kits available to download for free, those that wanted perfect quality items can still buy the kits, those customers that aren't as bothered, or may have limited money could print out on paper, remember there some players who have been paying since day one, and could now end up spending another $250 to buy all the kits, plus needing the new core set for the rules. The paper would be flimsy, the quality would be no where near as good as the kits, but it would allow FFG players a choice, and a way to continue playing and saving to be buy the physical items over time, **** they could even bring out a Medium Base Pack with maybe 2 bases in it.

That is how you Thank Loyal Customers

I would be surprised if the LFL license let them give that content away. If it’s free to players, then FFG isn’t earning money to pay royalties on. And the license is absolutely linked to royalties. 

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8 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

I would be surprised if the LFL license let them give that content away. If it’s free to players, then FFG isn’t earning money to pay royalties on. And the license is absolutely linked to royalties. 

They would still make money,

there are enough people who will blindly buy anything new without a second thought, and worship FFG like gods who can do no wrong, these forums show that. but there also those that have limits and can't afford to do that, but have still stuck with the game as much as they could.

and what Thank You have they received for that? .. "Gimmie More Money", don't get me wrong I'm not surprised, LFL has shown with its attacks on any General Star Wars fans that dislike TLJ it doesn't actually care what fans think anymore, **** maybe they are just trying to make up for the shrinking film profits and losses on Rose Tico figures haha

But trust me, some money is better than None if this turns away a large enough group of players. I have no interest in tournaments, never tool part, never intend to, X-wing is a fun game among my friend group, so I for one wont be moving to 2.0 and starting again with a $250+ price tag, and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that way.

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5 hours ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

People post words of encouragement and you try to counter them with a different argument. Same ol’ Sithborg. I guess it’s true, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

Or maybe I am of two minds on the issue. Considering the flack I got from my local group for voicing frustrations with the price, even though I am loving how they have changed the game, I am not entirely certain I am continuing the game. 

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4 hours ago, Slash Macbain said:

They would still make money,

there are enough people who will blindly buy anything new without a second thought, and worship FFG like gods who can do no wrong, these forums show that. but there also those that have limits and can't afford to do that, but have still stuck with the game as much as they could.

and what Thank You have they received for that? .. "Gimmie More Money", don't get me wrong I'm not surprised, LFL has shown with its attacks on any General Star Wars fans that dislike TLJ it doesn't actually care what fans think anymore, **** maybe they are just trying to make up for the shrinking film profits and losses on Rose Tico figures haha

But trust me, some money is better than None if this turns away a large enough group of players. I have no interest in tournaments, never tool part, never intend to, X-wing is a fun game among my friend group, so I for one wont be moving to 2.0 and starting again with a $250+ price tag, and I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking that way.

You're just asserting that they would still make money. Show your work. Demonstrate exactly how they would still make money. Otherwise you're just pretending that things can magically be cheaper and thus justify complaining that that FFG is "money grabbing" instead of it just being a case of, "I don't want to pay that much."

Honestly, I'd prefer if people just said the latter. It would be entirely reasonable. It's an opinion, and it's a valid one. But trying to say that FFG isn't justified in charging what they are? That's attempting to assert something as factual without actually being so.

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4 hours ago, Freeptop said:

You're just asserting that they would still make money. Show your work. Demonstrate exactly how they would still make money. Otherwise you're just pretending that things can magically be cheaper and thus justify complaining that that FFG is "money grabbing" instead of it just being a case of, "I don't want to pay that much."

Honestly, I'd prefer if people just said the latter. It would be entirely reasonable. It's an opinion, and it's a valid one. But trying to say that FFG isn't justified in charging what they are? That's attempting to assert something as factual without actually being so.

As I stated ... There are enough people that will buy Anything FFG put out .... these conversion kits could be $100 each, and there are those people that would still buy them without a second thought, coz they Need the real thing, the best, the whole collection, you see it with Online games as well.

Then as I also stated earlier with printed out PDF versions you would still need ship stands, which can be sold in packs to generate money.

If it wasn't for the App. they could have sold the conversion packs cheaper by focusing on the ships and a few basic upgrades, then sold actual Upgrade Packs, just being Upgrades these of course could have be fairly cheap.

All this would allow people to have spread the cost, a much more attractive way for most people of spending money

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3 hours ago, Slash Macbain said:

As I stated ... There are enough people that will buy Anything FFG put out .... these conversion kits could be $100 each, and there are those people that would still buy them without a second thought, coz they Need the real thing, the best, the whole collection, you see it with Online games as well.

Then as I also stated earlier with printed out PDF versions you would still need ship stands, which can be sold in packs to generate money.

If it wasn't for the App. they could have sold the conversion packs cheaper by focusing on the ships and a few basic upgrades, then sold actual Upgrade Packs, just being Upgrades these of course could have be fairly cheap.

All this would allow people to have spread the cost, a much more attractive way for most people of spending money

That's not showing your work, that's more assertions with an added layer of "we'll make it up in volume!"

That doesn't work in the real world. Product needs to have a profit margin. You've not demonstrated that there would be one.

The idea that they could distribute PDFs and sell stands is either disingenuous or utterly naive (hint: most people would just download the PDFs and not buy the stands). For that matter, those stands would need to be ridiculously expensive to keep FFG in business, even if people bought them.

Here's one example: people like to say that the ships only cost a few cents in plastic. Technically accurate, but they also have to pay back the costs for the metal molds the plastic is injected into. Each piece of plastic that has a different shape requires its own mold. Do you know how mich those molds cost to make? I have a pretty good idea, since I've seen prices for molds for products I've worked on. Each mold generally costs somewhere in the vicinity of $500-$1000 or more. And they only last theough so many uses before they have to be replaced. Bases and pegs can re-use molds, so you can amortize their cost more easily, but each ship requires at least one unique mold (and moving s-foils will require even more). So, if you make $5 profit on each ship, you need to sell 100-200 of them just to pay back the cist of the mold. You haven't paid for warehousing, payroll, office rent, marketing, utilities or other costs of business yet, mind you.

Considering that the factories, distributors and retailers all need to have a profit margin, plus the added cost of the licensing fee to Lucasfilm, and $5 profit margin is probably about what they make on the conversion kits. Each ship probably only has a margin of about $1.

Oh, and there's also the fact that the conversion kits will be a lower volume product for them than the expansions. New players won't buy the conversion kits, and not all old players will buy them. So making it up in volume isn't even a thing for those.

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4 hours ago, Freeptop said:

That's not showing your work, that's more assertions with an added layer of "we'll make it up in volume!"

That doesn't work in the real world. Product needs to have a profit margin. You've not demonstrated that there would be one.

The idea that they could distribute PDFs and sell stands is either disingenuous or utterly naive (hint: most people would just download the PDFs and not buy the stands). For that matter, those stands would need to be ridiculously expensive to keep FFG in business, even if people bought them.

Here's one example: people like to say that the ships only cost a few cents in plastic. Technically accurate, but they also have to pay back the costs for the metal molds the plastic is injected into. Each piece of plastic that has a different shape requires its own mold. Do you know how mich those molds cost to make? I have a pretty good idea, since I've seen prices for molds for products I've worked on. Each mold generally costs somewhere in the vicinity of $500-$1000 or more. And they only last theough so many uses before they have to be replaced. Bases and pegs can re-use molds, so you can amortize their cost more easily, but each ship requires at least one unique mold (and moving s-foils will require even more). So, if you make $5 profit on each ship, you need to sell 100-200 of them just to pay back the cist of the mold. You haven't paid for warehousing, payroll, office rent, marketing, utilities or other costs of business yet, mind you.

Considering that the factories, distributors and retailers all need to have a profit margin, plus the added cost of the licensing fee to Lucasfilm, and $5 profit margin is probably about what they make on the conversion kits. Each ship probably only has a margin of about $1.

Oh, and there's also the fact that the conversion kits will be a lower volume product for them than the expansions. New players won't buy the conversion kits, and not all old players will buy them. So making it up in volume isn't even a thing for those.

But we are not talking about the ships?? .. we are talking about cardboard squares

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On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 9:47 PM, Vontoothskie said:

you missed the point entirely.

1 x-wing from old core.

1 x-wing from old x-wing expac

1 x-wing from rebel transport

thats 3

1 x-wing from 2.0 core

thats 4

but you'll have 2 conversions from the conversion pack and 1 from the new core, thus 1 model you cant fly generic.

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 9:49 PM, Vontoothskie said:

no, you'll be able to fly 3 of your 4 models after that

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 9:55 PM, Astech said:

Assuming, of course, that FFG hasn't changed the price of the T-65 from 4-a-list to 3-a-list, making the argument invalid.

Of course, if you bought a Rebel Transport you've pretty clearly got the capital to trade for your fourth X-wing conversion from someone like me, who only owns 1 (classic core set; not much use for it).

There's pretty much no scenario where you'll need more than one kit for 200(?)/6 though, assuming you're willing to trade/borrow that one extra token in the few instances it's required.

Ah, but if you're ****-bent on avoiding a 2nd conversion kit for one lousy x-wing, may I offer an imperfect solution: pick up Saw's Renegades.  You'll get a fifth x-wing, but it will be coming with the necessary resources for both 1e and 2e.

That solution is $40.  Alternatively (you'll still net a bonus x-wing), for $20 you can get a fancy new s-foil x-wing that is releasing in New Wave I.

If you don't want extra plastic, you'll need to trade with someone who buys 2 Reb conversions that doesn't need 5+ x-wings (1 from Core + 4 from Conversions + 1 from Saw), I guess?

Edit: It censored hellbent?

Edited by Duciris
Incredulity

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7 hours ago, Slash Macbain said:

But we are not talking about the ships?? .. we are talking about cardboard squares

I used the plastic ships as an example of a specific NRE (non-recoverable engineering) cost that I'm aware of. Similar costs apply for making the cardboard portions (there are metal diess needed to cut the perforations, for example; I just don't know the costs for those like I do for plastic mold dies).  The point is there are a lot of costs that aren't just the raw materials that go into manufacturing and need to be paid for. That all comes out of profit margin.

I also can't help but notice that you focused on that singular point and still haven't shown your work. Please describe how FFG is supposed to provide profit margins for all the companies involved in getting the product into your hands and still sell it at a $20-25 price point.

Really, the conversion kits aren't going to be high volume - they effectively have an expiration date. They probably will only get printed once, because once the existing customer base has bought as much as its going to, no new customers are going to buy them. They'll buy the new individual ship expansions, instead. That means they really can't rely on volume to pay back costs in the long run.

I'm not just speaking out of my rear end, here. When I was a co-founder of a company, I got to see the books on what it cost to manufacture products, and what it cost to run the business. I also have known a fair number of people in the gaming industry, so I have a pretty good idea of just how tight things are for them.

Again, it's okay to feel upset about the prices, and feel they're too high for you. There's nothing wrong with that. I just get irked over the attempt to cast FFG as being greedy when I know that there really wasn't an option for them to go lower with the prices, unless they were willing to outright lose a ton of money - and for small gaming companies, that's not an option. They don't have the net profits to afford to do that.

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2 minutes ago, Freeptop said:

Really, the conversion kits aren't going to be high volume - they effectively have an expiration date. They probably will only get printed once, because once the existing customer base has bought as much as its going to, no new customers are going to buy them. They'll buy the new individual ship expansions, instead. That means they really can't rely on volume to pay back costs in the long run.

Eh, I agree with your other points (and I agree with your points here), but I think these will be higher volume than any of the huge ship expansions.  Those are more niche than these will be (Palp notwithstanding), and those have had to go through multiple printings to meet demand.  Long term, these will definitely drop off, but I expect new players to reason they can buy off 1e ships and a conversion kit and still net savings, so I feel this will be well purchased for a while.  Also, as people who are unwilling to convert to 2e at launch decide they are more keen on it later, the product will continue to be picked off of shelves.

Make no mistake, I think that these are priced reasonably, and I'm saying that staring down a 340-dollar-gun.  (1 new core (to add to my 6 other cores) and 2 of each conversion kit.)

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On 5/10/2018 at 4:10 PM, Freeptop said:

I used the plastic ships as an example of a specific NRE (non-recoverable engineering) cost that I'm aware of.

Really, the conversion kits aren't going to be high volume - they effectively have an expiration date. They probably will only get printed once, because once the existing customer base has bought as much as its going to, no new customers are going to buy them. They'll buy the new individual ship expansions, instead. That means they really can't rely on volume to pay back costs in the long run.

I'm not just speaking out of my rear end, here. When I was a co-founder of a company, I got to see the books on what it cost to manufacture products, and what it cost to run the business.

Again, it's okay to feel upset about the prices, and feel they're too high for you. There's nothing wrong with that. I just get irked over the attempt to cast FFG as being greedy when I know that there really wasn't an option for them to go lower with the prices, unless they were willing to outright lose a ton of money - and for small gaming companies, that's not an option. They don't have the net profits to afford to do that.

How are you aware of the Specific FFG production costs?

Yes the conversion kits will have a shelf life and they wont make many, so less numbers equals less production costs ... or as we see with most companies, tiny productions runs to keep prices high with reprint runs if needed.

Your a co-founder of a company?, Know FFG specific costings?, irked when people think FFG are greedy? hmm which company is it you work for i wonder?

and Small gaming companies dont have many options, but FFG is NOT a small gaming company, in fact it is ranked as the 7th most prominent In The World!! .. https://www.ranker.com/list/board-game-companies/reference. (worth noting Asmodee, now merged with FFG is number 3 on that list as well)

and if you understand business and costings, you should should understand the "Buying Power" that gives FFG

but regardless my opinon, and I know Im not alone, Too Much, I'm Out

Edited by Slash Macbain

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12 minutes ago, Slash Macbain said:

How are you aware of the Specific FFG production costs?

Yes the conversion kits will have a shelf life and they wont make many, so less numbers equals less production costs ... or as we see with most companies, tiny productions runs to keep prices high with reprint runs if needed.

Your a co-founder of a company?, Know FFG specific costings?, irked when people think FFG are greedy? hmm which company is it you work for i wonder?

and Small gaming companies dont have many options, but FFG is NOT a small gaming company, in fact it is ranked as the 7th most prominent In The World!! .. https://www.ranker.com/list/board-game-companies/reference. (worth noting Asmodee, now merged with FFG is number 3 on that list as well)

and if you understand business and costings, you should should understand the "Buying Power" that gives FFG

but regardless my opinon, and I know Im not alone, Too Much, I'm Out

How are you aware of their costs? You are making a lot of assertions without actually backing them up, which you have been asked to do several times. 

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And we're derailed!  Somehow, the original post was an open acknowledgement that he/she/CoffeeMinion (those are your three gender specific options now) was considering purchasing less product until 2e comes out.  And now we're debating CashGrab.  Ah, my soul's at peace.

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 1:04 PM, CoffeeMinion said:

For the record, I'm actually pretty okay with both 2e itself and the way it's being handled. I don't like having chunks of my collection stuck behind the need for upgrade packs, but I get why it was done this way and for the most part I'm okay with it.

The real downside that I'm feeling now is that this totally kills my inclination to buy more ships in the remaining 1e era. Like I'd recently contemplated buying another Harpoon Expansion Pack to open up some specific build options, but now there's only marginal value in flying those couple of builds for the next few months versus just saving the money for later update packs and flying something else. Similarly, I was super stoked for the X-Wing and U-Wing fix pack, and the Reaper preview looked awesome too... but now suddenly the X and U fixes are going to come to me in the Rebel update whether I buy the standalone pack or not, and now I'd honestly rather put the $30 for the Reaper toward the $50 I need to get all the rest of my Imps legal in 2e.

Y'know what I mean? None of this is bad per se, but boy does it disincline me to spend more on X-Wing until 2e drops.

 

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2 hours ago, Slash Macbain said:

How are you aware of the Specific FFG production costs?

Yes the conversion kits will have a shelf life and they wont make many, so less numbers equals less production costs ... or as we see with most companies, tiny productions runs to keep prices high with reprint runs if needed.

Your a co-founder of a company?, Know FFG specific costings?, irked when people think FFG are greedy? hmm which company is it you work for i wonder?

and Small gaming companies dont have many options, but FFG is NOT a small gaming company, in fact it is ranked as the 7th most prominent In The World!! .. https://www.ranker.com/list/board-game-companies/reference. (worth noting Asmodee, now merged with FFG is number 3 on that list as well)

and if you understand business and costings, you should should understand the "Buying Power" that gives FFG

but regardless my opinon, and I know Im not alone, Too Much, I'm Out

Actually, I'm a software engineer who works in tech products, but I have friends who work in the gaming industry.

How do I know FFGs production costs? Because some things are pretty similar, no matter what the exact product is. Molds for plastic items made in China, for example, is pretty much a standard set of costs. I don't know their specific costs, but I have an idea of the scale. Things like profit margins are a pretty standard business thing. And in terms of having an idea of how much sells, all I need to do is look at where you can buy the product from. X-Wing expansions are only available in specialty stores, not the big-box stores like Target or Wal-Mart. In those specialty stores, you generally only see a handful of each SKU available (1-5), and they can sit on the shelf for quite some time before selling. Right there, you aren't getting the volume necessary to afford low margins. That also means you aren't buying enough from the manufacturer to have "buying power."

When I was with the startup I co-founded, we wanted to use a particular chip at one point. We contacted the company that produced them for a pricing quote. Their response was: "Come talk to us when you're shipping at least 1000 units per month." Until then, it wasn't even worth it to them to sell to us. That is the kind of volume that allows lower margins. The fact that we see when each product "goes to the printer" on FFGs website tells me they aren't producing a sustained thousand units-per-month sell-through rate on each expansion. And yes, it would need to be on a per-expansion basis, not total across all products, in order to pay back development costs.

For the record, "most prominent board game companies" is already separating out a niche market which isn't all that large. And 7th on that list is actually pretty far down (I'd go over the list, but that link doesn't appear to actually work...) In any case, once you get past "Hasbro", none of them are going to be particularly rolling in cash.

As an amusing side-note - the startup I worked for ultimately ended up getting acquired. By the same company that had told us they wouldn't sell to us. I still find that amusing, even though that was well over a decade ago, now.

 

And with that, I'm out, too. I hope at least one person found this look into how business works interesting. I've spent far too much time procrastinating from work writing these posts up now ?

Edited by Freeptop

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Actually, I'm to the point where I'm wanting a few of the ships from the newest waves.  There was only 1 Scum in Wave XII, 0 in Wave XIII, and there will be 0 in Wave XIV.  So I've been unhurried about picking them up, but I too am thinking I'll wait for 2nd Ed. before I do.

On a second note, I think that there is a Second Weird Side-Effect of All This 2e Nonsense: Conversion Kits will offer new and casual players the options to try virtually any squad they want without purchasing anymore than maybe the 2e Core, 2 small-based ships, and 2 large based ships.  That's pretty cool.  When we would test ships that we didn't own in the past, the hardest part to duplicate was the dial.  The C-Kits will have all the dials you need (not withstanding the ship count max).  Also, because the dials are fully visible when revealed, you could select a given maneuver "2↑" and write it down on a notecard (because of how thick they are).  Then, you reveal one of your dialed ships, and you can reveal your notecard-ship using the already revealed dial to indicate if it's a Red-, White- or Blue-maneuver*.  Then, next planning phase, you cross off the previous maneuver and write a new one.  That's really neat.

*Side note: did anybody realize they turned the dials into British, American, & French colors?

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