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Pollux85

Hypothetical IA 2nd edition

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I don’t want a second addition, but agree with others that have talked about a more immersive physical campaign (leaving the app campaign aside as it’s a different thing). Would love to incorporate a few more elements of interactivity that the app has - nothing drastic, not an overhaul. But sprinkling in those interactive “choices” which may trigger something, or change the outcome, etc.

I also would like a tiny bit more flavor text and story narrative between missions. Again, I don’t want volumes of text, talking like an extra 3-4 sentences which might help lead into the mission. Ideally it could change a little depending on previous mission outcome.  Having something that reflects the previous outcome would help glue the story together a little bit better IMO.

The overall mechanics are quite good. I think there are lots of options, and we have seen the missions get a bit more involved from the initial core release. I like the hidden tile/build map in sections that started to happen in Hoth and JR for instance. 

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4 hours ago, Uninvited Guest said:

I don't want to disagree with you, but I do.  The problem with X-Wing at this point that it's out of control.  The make something new and break something else, they try to fix it and they ruin something.  The FAQ is bigger than the RRG, I feel like half the cards I have are errata'd to the point where they don't do what they say they do, and the top tables at each event all end up having at least one ship in common.  They could continue the cycle of break and fix, call it quits with the game in a bad state, or do this - overhaul everything.

 

How is that going to change?  The problem with most table top competition games, and I see it here, is everyone keeps wanting something new.  I don't blame FFG for offering all this plastic because people seem to have an unending thirst to spend their money on something "new" which continues to screw with the meta.  I know the word power creep is verboten around here, but that is exactly what goes on.  New plastic with new rules that make old plastic obsolete, except in certain circumstances where a piece has enduring value, and then every list has it and every list that doesn't have it wants a copy of of it.  

Star Wars minis, the original Rebel Storm, was a pretty good fast and easy system.  But the desire for more characters and the desire of WoTC to reap in the cash, led to constant introductions of characters that outright broke the game.  The rules got extremely convoluted, and turns would take forever because there was always twin attacks on double attacks with everyone having some kind of save.  The game became drudgery.  I don't play X-Wing competitively, but it seems like if you take the initial rules, the game is quit quick and fun, but once every ship has multiple cards it starts to become tedious.   Maybe a reset is what is needed, but all I see is it reset and then going right back to the same problem.

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12 minutes ago, Rikalonius said:

How is that going to change?

In theory, FFGs new ability to adjust point values via the app when they want.  There are some statements regarding upgrade cards themselves going away, although the component spreads seem to dictate that’s not 100% accurate.

So... will this fix things? No. What will probably happen is they’re going to continue to break things with new content, fix it, break it with more new content.  But I think the user experience will be better in that the fixes will either change point values or change how an ability works that will be clearly visible in the app.

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31 minutes ago, Uninvited Guest said:

In theory, FFGs new ability to adjust point values via the app when they want.  There are some statements regarding upgrade cards themselves going away, although the component spreads seem to dictate that’s not 100% accurate.

So... will this fix things? No. What will probably happen is they’re going to continue to break things with new content, fix it, break it with more new content.  But I think the user experience will be better in that the fixes will either change point values or change how an ability works that will be clearly visible in the app.

I was actually talking about X-Wing 2E.

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32 minutes ago, Uninvited Guest said:

In theory, FFGs new ability to adjust point values via the app when they want.  There are some statements regarding upgrade cards themselves going away, although the component spreads seem to dictate that’s not 100% accurate.

So... will this fix things? No. What will probably happen is they’re going to continue to break things with new content, fix it, break it with more new content.  But I think the user experience will be better in that the fixes will either change point values or change how an ability works that will be clearly visible in the app.

From what I've read/heard in the in X-Wing v2 demos, the number of upgrade cards each ship can carry is getting reduced. Part of the reason is prevent the "new blister release creates UNBEATABLE META PLZ NERF NOW" problems X-Wing v1 has currently.

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5 minutes ago, Rikalonius said:

I was actually talking about X-Wing 2E.

Yes, I am too.  I didn’t watch the stream, I’ve just read a bunch of promo stuff; so maybe I’ve missed or was mislead about something.

6 minutes ago, cnemmick said:

From what I've read/heard in the in X-Wing v2 demos, the number of upgrade cards each ship can carry is getting reduced. Part of the reason is prevent the "new blister release creates UNBEATABLE META PLZ NERF NOW" problems X-Wing v1 has currently.

Ah, that makes sense regarding the cards in the promo spreads.

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I think X-Wing 2.0 was necessary. A brazilion pages of FAQ, overpowered combos, bad balancing, army lists with NO ship seen in a movie ... X-Wing had enough problems.

I like the idea of non-fix point costs / point cost via app. This makes balancing so much easier. When I look into my IA figures collection, > 75% of my figures don't see any skirmish play. Many figures just have NEVER seen any skirmish play, e.g. lots of the campaign heroes. Most of them just need to be a little bit cheaper. This could be done easily with such an app.

I like the conversion sets, as they allow veteran players to keep their collection. I hope they do that for IA 2.0.

 

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Core Set placed in the Sequel Trilogy.

Rey and Kylo expansions inside.

First Wave of Blisters - Finn, Ressistance Fighters, Phasma, FO Stormtroopers, Baala Tiik, Guavian Enforcers.

Introduction of Force powers statistics to the characters.

More dice. Combinations of four attack dice slowly becomes boring.

And of course converision Kit to make all 1.0 figures playable in skirmish and Mercenaries also in Campaign (Obviously most Imperial and Rebel can't be available in sequel era campaign)

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3 hours ago, DerBaer said:

I think X-Wing 2.0 was necessary. A brazilion pages of FAQ, overpowered combos, bad balancing, army lists with NO ship seen in a movie ... X-Wing had enough problems.

Maybe XW 2.0 will sell in Brazil. ;) But I won't be funneling into Asmodee's slush fund.

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I don't think the game needs a second edition at this point, but if they were to make it, they would probably look at:
- rebalance the dice a bit (most notably: the dodge, but maybe also slightly higher acc on yellow maybe)
- point cost in app (although I am still skeptical, this is what they chose with X-wing and I can see the merit in rebalancing stuff like command card cost (take initiative and negate, I am looking at you) and deployment costs (easier to balance new and old guys without a mandatory upgrade pack).
- remove temporary alliance (I LOVE the card but I also think it makes the factions less unique)
- tradeoff long range vs big shot (how is it that the longer distance you shoot, you want more dice to throw for the range, but you also increase the damage? I always thought that somehow longer range should reduce the damage output somehow... but this is a BIG change and not THAT needed. The game works fine as is, even though the flavor is kinda wonky for me on this one)
- NEW BOBA (seriously... we need him to be viable)
 

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I must be one of the few people that like the dodge, and it has plagued me too.  I think it was a good mechanic at the time of release.  Now we have so many character that have 3 attack dice, and some type of extra damage, that people just lose their minds when their ultra attack is stymied by the dodge.  I say, good.  That's the way it should be.  Combat is chaotic.  There are plenty of, too many in my opinion, mitigating rules against it now.

Most characters that are long range shooters don't have more dice, they have built in accuracy.  The game, to me, seems fairly balanced on this front.  After all, a Barret 50 does a lot of damage at a long distance.  I think the right balance of hard hitting weapons is weight, i.e. slowness of movement or requiring that a unit cannot move and attack in the same action to simulate setup. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Uninvited Guest said:

.Now, on topic:

I've always been a little bothered that there have been mechanics in IA that are essentially exclusive to certain campaigns and the corresponding characters/classes.  @Pollux85 touched on this in his original post mentioning the bubble shields, but I'll use another example: power tokens.  Fenn or Verena will never be able to assign themselves a power token without equipment from HotE.  I'd like to see things like that rolled back to the previous existing content of the game.

So you are suggesting they completely reboot the game every time they introduce a new mechanic? No thank you.

Besides, the new mechanics are not campaign specific at all, you can bring Power tokens into a Core campaign via multiple methods including class decks, Agendas, deployment cards, heroes, allies, equipment, supply cards, etc. I am currently running a Core campaign for newer players and we have seen power tokens in several of our missions already. As for bubble shields and rubble tokens, those are tokens specific to a certain class deck/hero that defines its identity, that's kinda like complaining that you don't get to see device or recon tokens in the game if you don't bring Saska or Loku. 

Point being, I don't think IA needs a reboot, and more importantly I don't think IA organized play would survive a 2nd edition. I've had my ear to the ground of social media lately, and a lot of die-hard X-Wing players are happy about 2.0, but a lot are also quitting over it. 

What I would like to see is a new Skirmish focused Core set that is cheaper and more focused than the campaign Core set, aimed specifically at players that are either interested only in skirmish or that are already playing in a campaign using a friend's core set and want to try skirmish but don't want to buy a $90 box that their friend already owns. As someone who plays skirmish and runs campaigns for people, I am constantly hearing players say that they really like the skirmish mode after I demo it for them, but they have a hard time justifying a core set purchase when we are mostly just using my stuff anyway. I'm happy to lend out figures for people to play skirmish, but a strong community can't just be focused around 1 persons collection, FFG needs needs needs to make it easier for people to build their own skirmish collection without also having to buy campaign content that they're never going to use is already being provided to them by a friend. 

Edited by Tvboy

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1 hour ago, Tvboy said:

So you are suggesting they completely reboot the game every time they introduce a new mechanic? No thank you.

Besides, the new mechanics are not campaign specific at all, you can bring Power tokens into a Core campaign via multiple methods including class decks, Agendas, deployment cards, heroes, allies, equipment, supply cards, etc. I am currently running a Core campaign for newer players and we have seen power tokens in several of our missions already. As for bubble shields and rubble tokens, those are tokens specific to a certain class deck/hero that defines its identity, that's kinda like complaining that you don't get to see device or recon tokens in the game if you don't bring Saska or Loku. 

Point being, I don't think IA needs a reboot, and more importantly I don't think IA organized play would survive a 2nd edition. I've had my ear to the ground of social media lately, and a lot of die-hard X-Wing players are happy about 2.0, but a lot are also quitting over it. 

What I would like to see is a new Skirmish focused Core set that is cheaper and more focused than the campaign Core set, aimed specifically at players that are either interested only in skirmish or that are already playing in a campaign using a friend's core set and want to try skirmish but don't want to buy a $90 box that their friend already owns. As someone who plays skirmish and runs campaigns for people, I am constantly hearing players say that they really like the skirmish mode after I demo it for them, but they have a hard time justifying a core set purchase when we are mostly just using my stuff anyway. I'm happy to lend out figures for people to play skirmish, but a strong community can't just be focused around 1 persons collection, FFG needs needs needs to make it easier for people to build their own skirmish collection without also having to buy campaign content that they're never going to use is already being provided to them by a friend. 

I don't think that a new edition is necessary for every new mechanic, and I'm not entirely sure it's necessary now yet- but I do think that the game is starting to get a bit unwieldy.

 

Personally, I love when a game gets complex, and sometimes even when it gets a little too bloated.  But I can see how, with stuff like the Power Tokens, things might seem a little bit too spread out at this point.

 

 

Anyway...

 

As disappointing as the Hyperspace Report was in its complete exclusion of anything but X-Wing, tomorrow is both May the 4th and the Friday of Worlds.  Basically, the cosmic alignment of the Galaxy Far Far Away.

 

I don't know if we can reasonably expect and IA stuff or not, but I think it'll still be a great day for Star Wars gamers.  Looking forward to it.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Tvboy said:

So you are suggesting they completely reboot the game every time they introduce a new mechanic? No thank you.

That’s an extremely dramatic interpretation of what I said, esspecially considering the topic of this thread.  I’m saying that if they did a second edition I’d like to see the new mechanics incorporated into older parts of the game.

 

8 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Besides, the new mechanics are not campaign specific at all, 

I did say “and the corresponding characters/classes” specifically for that reason.

i definitely like your skirmish core idea.  That’d be great!  It’s similar with my friends, not being able to Justify the core purchase.

Edited by Uninvited Guest

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, AphraFanBoy said:

An orange dice. 

You know, as silly as it sounds, I wouldn't mind a new attack and defense dice.

 

Maybe a defense dice that's either basically like black but with cancels rather than blocks, or a die that's even heartier than black (or conversely, flimsier than white).

 

For attacks, maybe something not totally unlike Descent's blue dice- but instead of a total dodge, it could add some blocks to the attack.  Maybe make it a gamble by also featuring a side with 4-5 hits.

 

The only problem is, we're so far into the product line now that it would either seem gimmicky by being underused in general, or by being overused with the new stuff.  Can't really win there.

Edited by subtrendy2

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4 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

You know, as silly as it sounds, I wouldn't mind a new attack and defense dice.

 

Maybe a defense dice that's either basically like black but with cancels rather than blocks, or a die that's even heartier than black (or conversely, flimsier than white).

 

For attacks, maybe something not totally unlike Descent's blue dice- but instead of a total dodge, it could add some blocks to the attack.  Maybe make it a gamble by also featuring a side with 4-5 hits.

 

The only problem is, we're so far into the product line now that it would either seem gimmicky by being underused in general, or by being overused with the new stuff.  Can't really win there.

You have ways to add die of your choice to attack. We would need more command cards that modify dice pools. It shouldn't be too bad. This may also benefit Lando which has nice mechanics.

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6 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

You know, as silly as it sounds, I wouldn't mind a new attack and defense dice.

 

Maybe a defense dice that's either basically like black but with cancels rather than blocks, or a die that's even heartier than black (or conversely, flimsier than white).

 

For attacks, maybe something not totally unlike Descent's blue dice- but instead of a total dodge, it could add some blocks to the attack.  Maybe make it a gamble by also featuring a side with 4-5 hits.

 

The only problem is, we're so far into the product line now that it would either seem gimmicky by being underused in general, or by being overused with the new stuff.  Can't really win there.

Or maybe make one of the die a D8? 

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They did do a 2nd ed. It is called Legion. Seriously, they won't do much to interfere. What this game needs now is just more app support and that is good.

X-wing is both a cash grab and some needed changes. I must say though, sometimes change can be very bad, even if it is an improvement.

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Oh and the other thing that should have never made it through the first pass is the bonus rewards for winning. While in theory it is neat in that it provides an incentive to push hard and win, if every mission is theoretically balanced (which should be the design goal) then extra XP for winning, bonus credits for opening crates, etc causes the Rebels become overpowered after two or three back to back wins. Extra influence/XP for Imperial wins does the same for the other side. The rewards for win/loss should be equivalent. If you are going to give one side a unique item or upgrade (hero specific side mission for example) the other side needs to be compensated with a fair-ish counter balance. 

 

Side missions should also be one chance to accept, not a persistent choice, flush the choices every time with no repeats. If the cards come up for Diala's lightsaber, Mak's stealthsuit, or a 3 Influence mission the rebels must make a hard choice. As it stands they can soundly defeat the Imperial mission, then get Mak's suit, lastly get the saber. As it stands though 3 Influence imperial missions aren't worth the cost anyway as the villain is already "properly" costed.  

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Posted (edited)

I think a second edition is definitely needed, due to the level of inaccessibility with Skirmish and the high cost of entry. Because of the rotating map system, the game requires you own the Core, several expansions and figure packs just to be able to play in a tournament. 

I don’t care about figure costs or imbalance but right now if someone wanted to play in an X-Wing tournament they can do so for under €100. For a game like Shadespire they can play for about €40.  The current costs for being able to play in Imperial Assault is about €250. 

A second edition is needed to re-evaluate this system and introduce a competitive field that is cheaper to enter. Obviously it’s FFG so you’ll want to buy everything but it’s far more enticing to new players if the entry point is affordable. 

Also not having to carry a bundle of map pieces or multiple play mats to each tournament would be good. As would a play mat that is usable for more than a year... 

 

A so-called second edition could be fully compatible with the existing material but be both a time-jump for the campaign and a redesign of the tournament play for Skirmish. 

Edited by DrDevidents

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5 hours ago, DrDevidents said:

I think a second edition is definitely needed, due to the level of inaccessibility with Skirmish and the high cost of entry. Because of the rotating map system, the game requires you own the Core, several expansions and figure packs just to be able to play in a tournament. 

But that is legion essentially isn't it? You get the plastic guys and the cards and you free to battle wherever essentially. I'm not quite sure how you could do away with map tiles or mats really.

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