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Commander Kaine

The Force... Mechanic discussion

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So far only Ezra and Luke has been revealed with their full abilities, but the Vader crew seems to add +1 Force token to your ship, and ofc Vader has 3 tokens. 

Mara Jade, the Emperor, Kaanan (crew and pilot), Ezra (crew), Maul, Corran, the Inquisitor, Assaj... these are all characters with force powers (and I probably missed some), and probably have some Force related mechanics, and for the pilots, the ability to equip Force upgrades. 

 

Luke seems to have a way to recover force tokens, which seems a bit bonkers on first glance... Do you think other Force users will do that? I'd be pissed if Vader or the Emperor could only use their abilities 3 times, while Luke can just do it whenever. 

 

What do you think/hope/fear about the Force? 

 

 

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the force is basically the same thing as "charge"

difference being that "force" upgrades will spend force tokens on the ship card, whereas upgrades carry their own charge. you can also apparently spend 1 force token to change a FOCUS to a HIT or EVADE

" At their most basic, these charges can be spent to improve a pilot’s aim or give them an extra push to avoid incoming fire. Using a Force charge lets you change a single focus result on attack or defense to a hit or evade result! When paired with upgrade cards, however, Force-sensitive pilots become even more versatile. Upgrades that require Force charges can make Force-sensitive pilots more perceptive of their surroundings, give them supernatural reflexes, or even grant them the ability to reach out and sense where their opponent will move next. "

 

the "Fear" is that it seems the game is straying away from passive mods, which makes "burst" upgrades a lot more enticing. For example, fully-modified proton torpedoes are looking really **** good when everyone's only throwing out 3 die primaries.

swz01_a3_proton-torpedoes.png

the Force mechanic is a form of "burst" modification, and a way to get action-independent modifiers in an edition where they are (supposedly) becoming more rare

Edited by ficklegreendice

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8 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

the force is basically the same thing as "charge"

From what little we can see of it-88-a, “calculate” also seems similar. Makes me a little concerned that they “cleaned up” the rules by adding a bunch of mechanically the same sub-systems with different names. 

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6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

the force is basically the same thing as "charge"

difference being that "force" upgrades will spend force tokens on the ship card, whereas upgrades carry their own charge. you can also apparently spend 1 force token to change a FOCUS to a HIT or EVADE

" At their most basic, these charges can be spent to improve a pilot’s aim or give them an extra push to avoid incoming fire. Using a Force charge lets you change a single focus result on attack or defense to a hit or evade result! When paired with upgrade cards, however, Force-sensitive pilots become even more versatile. Upgrades that require Force charges can make Force-sensitive pilots more perceptive of their surroundings, give them supernatural reflexes, or even grant them the ability to reach out and sense where their opponent will move next. "

 

the "Fear" is that it seems the game is straying away from passive mods, which makes "burst" upgrades a lot more enticing. For example, fully-modified proton torpedoes are looking really **** good when everyone's only throwing out 3 die primaries.

swz01_a3_proton-torpedoes.png

the Force mechanic is a form of "burst" modification, and a way to get action-independent modifiers in an edition where they are (supposedly) becoming more rare

I think the number of force users will limit that somewhat. 
 

With taking the factions apart, it is getting harder to do a high PS alpha with force using pilots, carrying ordnance. 

Vader and the Inquisitor will probably continue to be good friends, but with the new X-Wing, I'm not sure they have a distinct edge over someone like Luke... 

The Advanced and the X-Wing are pretty similar right now. 


Calling it now: Vader will be able to chain multiple actions together by using his Force abilities. Maybe to remove stress, or something similar. 

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1 minute ago, Forgottenlore said:

From what little we can see of it-88-a, “calculate” also seems similar. Makes me a little concerned that they “cleaned up” the rules by adding a bunch of mechanically the same sub-systems with different names. 

Both calculate and the Force seem to be limited to a single (focus) result. 

That, and charges are limited. Maybe there are ways to remove them. 

I don't think it is even close to stuff in First edition

 

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well, it's slightly different

charge is pulled directly from the card (ie proton torps have their charge, Iden's ability is on her card along with her one charge)

swz01_a1_tie_attack_diagram.jpg

 

 

while the FORCE seems to have its tokens on the pilot card, and then all upgrades will take from the pilot card (also you can spend a FORCE for its "focus" effect)

 

no idea about calculation, though


and yeah @Commander Kaine, I'd put some $ on Vader's force ability being "once per round, spend 1 token to perform a free action"

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I don’t know if it is a charge or what but it seems to limit how many uses you’ll get for upgrades.  Look at the R2 D2. Abilities that have that are limited unless there is a mechanic to get it back like Luke’s force ability states 

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Text of Vader's ability was shown already in the Covenant interview. 

"After you perform an action, you may spend 1 {force token} to perform an action."

With Tie Advanced losing the evade action and Vader only having a store of 3 force tokens, I'm thinking he's a lot less attractive. However, the force symbol on the stat bar has a little up arrowhead, so maybe there's an unrevealed native mechanic in the rules for regenerating force.

Since the Tie Adv focus action can chain to a red BR, Vader can do all three actions for the cost of a force and a stress. But with the stapled-on ATC change, I'm not sure that's such a great deal.

 

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1 minute ago, PaulTiberius said:

so maybe there's an unrevealed native mechanic in the rules for regenerating force.

I’ve been wondering that myself. Does force come back? Thematically, it would seem like it should, but the fact that Luke’s ability specifically addresses him regaining force suggests it doesn’t, otherwise his ability isn’t particularly good. 

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4 minutes ago, PaulTiberius said:

Text of Vader's ability was shown already in the Covenant interview. 

"After you perform an action, you may spend 1 {force token} to perform an action."

 

nailed it
 

4 minutes ago, PaulTiberius said:

m thinking he's a lot less attractive. However, the force symbol on the stat bar has a little up arrowhead, so maybe there's an unrevealed native mechanic in the rules for regenerating force.

Since the Tie Adv focus action can chain to a red BR, Vader can do all three actions for the cost of a force and a stress. But with the stapled-on ATC change, I'm not sure that's such a great deal.

 

depends on the state of the game and, more importantly, Vader's point cost

it'll probably be fine given the dial buff



also, I found a force upgrade!
31727886_1768441966548178_83463830340517

yup, holds no force tokens of its own probably spends them from the pilot card

 

 

 

EDIT: regenerating force kind of contradicts the whole purpose of limited tokens

which is why Luke is probably really, really good

swz01_a1_force_cut-out.png

Edited by ficklegreendice

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3 minutes ago, PaulTiberius said:

Text of Vader's ability was shown already in the Covenant interview. 

"After you perform an action, you may spend 1 {force token} to perform an action."

With Tie Advanced losing the evade action and Vader only having a store of 3 force tokens, I'm thinking he's a lot less attractive. However, the force symbol on the stat bar has a little up arrowhead, so maybe there's an unrevealed native mechanic in the rules for regenerating force.

Since the Tie Adv focus action can chain to a red BR, Vader can do all three actions for the cost of a force and a stress. But with the stapled-on ATC change, I'm not sure that's such a great deal.

 

Actions seem to be very limited so, Vader might be unique in a sea of single action dweebs. In that case, he is awesome. 

Or maybe the arrow means that you regain focus by performing blue (green) moves? 

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Just now, ficklegreendice said:

nailed it
 

depends on the state of the game and, more importantly, Vader's point cost

it'll probably be fine given the dial buff



also, I found a force upgrade!
31727886_1768441966548178_83463830340517

yup, holds no force tokens of its own probably spends them from the pilot card

It is basically a better dead-eye for force users. 

Very thematic actually. I like it. 

 

Now... what is the red "charge" token? 

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disarm, perhaps?

either that or you flip it when you have no charge tokens because what else would you put under a charge token?

 

 

edit: forgot that Vader's limited action stuff has to be stacked with the fact that FORCE can be used for more than just his ability

sure you have a limited supply, but for one round you can get obscene action efficiency between his ability and Force "focus"

Edited by ficklegreendice

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Just now, PaulTiberius said:

It's the reverse of the charge token. Shields have a red reverse as well, since you can regenerate them more often. Seems a little dopey to me, but oh well. 

Maybe they are like Armada tokens... 

You can exhaust them (use them once a turn) which means flipping to red. 

Then you can use them up permanently (in the same round)

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"Old Ben" Crew

Add 2 force to your ship. When the ship dies, choose a friendly ship to recieve the "Sage Advise" condition (add 2 force to the ship with the condition)

(not really, but it seems the sort of thing)

Edited by Rakaydos

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7 minutes ago, PaulTiberius said:

Text of Vader's ability was shown already in the Covenant interview. 

"After you perform an action, you may spend 1 {force token} to perform an action."

With Tie Advanced losing the evade action and Vader only having a store of 3 force tokens, I'm thinking he's a lot less attractive. However, the force symbol on the stat bar has a little up arrowhead, so maybe there's an unrevealed native mechanic in the rules for regenerating force.

Since the Tie Adv focus action can chain to a red BR, Vader can do all three actions for the cost of a force and a stress. But with the stapled-on ATC change, I'm not sure that's such a great deal.

 

That seems to be how it works, which is pretty dope actually. The Tie Adv really only needs that extra action to reacquire a target lock. Otherwise it is a focus or maybe a focus/BR. Having that extra action 3 times per game is pretty good and yet not crazy good, so his cost can be kept lower.

Evade isn't nearly as good as it once was, so you really just want that focus token anyways.

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1 minute ago, Commander Kaine said:

Maybe they are like Armada tokens... 

You can exhaust them (use them once a turn) which means flipping to red. 

Then you can use them up permanently (in the same round)

THAT’S an interesting idea. I can attest that in Armada that mechanic makes for some interesting decision making during play. 

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3 minutes ago, Mep said:

That seems to be how it works, which is pretty dope actually. The Tie Adv really only needs that extra action to reacquire a target lock. Otherwise it is a focus or maybe a focus/BR. Having that extra action 3 times per game is pretty good and yet not crazy good, so his cost can be kept lower.

Evade isn't nearly as good as it once was, so you really just want that focus token anyways.

Plus we don't know what sort of upgrades will we have... 

Maybe adding an evade action is common

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We do know fcs kinda sucks...unless you're a tie advance and really need that TL anyway...

Seems like the advance can take systems now that ATC has been rolled into its base card (HUGE improvememt over 1.0 design) 

From what little I've seen, the GOBS OF MODS from 1.0 being potentially phased out, we're probably going to see support ships rise in value (hopefully they're not as busted as the sheathe) since no one will be as self sufficient anymore 

But if you use the force, well you need that support a lot less than everyone else 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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19 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Plus we don't know what sort of upgrades will we have... 

Maybe adding an evade action is common

Yeah, I can see the new autothrusters adding an evade token is it becomes a once per round sort of thing.

BTW, ATC is just predator now and predator is pretty good. The action economy on the old one was broken. This is much better.

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i don't think luke abilities is so strong as to be overpowered as some people are saying, he have basically poes ability from 1.0 with a little more flexibility. without force upgrades he will basically atack, maybe spend tokens to change focus to hit (like poes do with a focus). then be atacked recover one that he can use to change one focus to evade on defense (the ability he has on 1.0).

  It will be a little diferent becouse if he is not targeted he cannot recover, so he cannot use again on the next atack (unlike poe). I don't think it is sooo strong. What will make the diference is what force upgrades will be avaliable to him.

Edited by galahadba

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1 hour ago, Forgottenlore said:

I’ve been wondering that myself. Does force come back? Thematically, it would seem like it should, but the fact that Luke’s ability specifically addresses him regaining force suggests it doesn’t, otherwise his ability isn’t particularly good. 

There may be a process to gain it back, maybe via an action or something?  Or perhaps it does happen passively, at a slow rate?

One thing of possible real interest - while the obvious conclusion to draw from introducing 'Force' upgrades and droid-specific upgrades is one thing - it opens up new possibilities, too.  Depending on how deeply FFG wants to dive into the EU...

...specific that attack/reduce your Force stat?

Thrawn-comic-book.jpg

...or just ignore your attempts to use the Force to do something?

Yuuzhan%20Vong.jpg

New design space!

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