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NeverBetTheFett

What a smack in the face...

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Everyone talking about buying multiple conversion kits: have we considered that the new rules may push more towards synergistic squad builds (i.e. no more Nymiranda dual-bombers or 3/4 Wookie Gunships) that make taking a mix of fighters, interceptors, elites and/or bombers competitive?

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1 hour ago, Dosiere said:

I feel you, but of course you don’t need to spend that much at once, maybe never.  

My big worry is that they won't have conversion kits available in 2 years. And if I upgrade as I can afford, it might take me that long.

My other concern is that they're pricing these in a revenue maximizing way, not a loyalty maximizing way. I'm not asking for free- or even at a loss. Just at a price point that values the investment I've already made.

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1 minute ago, Punning Pundit said:

My big worry is that they won't have conversion kits available in 2 years. And if I upgrade as I can afford, it might take me that long.

My other concern is that they're pricing these in a revenue maximizing way, not a loyalty maximizing way. I'm not asking for free- or even at a loss. Just at a price point that values the investment I've already made.

They will continue to be available if Descent 2.0 is anything to go by.  Not a LOT of them, but enough.

And the latter point is just nonsense.  $50 is very reasonable for the amount of material you're getting, compared to similar board games wth similar amounts of cardboard, and in the end, they're still a business.  Selling stuff at a loss isn't really a viable thing to do (though yes, I recognise that loss leaders exist; the conversion kits may be that, the core set almost certainly is).

Not to mention, they've done this in a very reasonable way.  They could have just completely invalidated all the old stuff, increased or decreased the scale a bit and started over from day 1, like GW.  But they're giving everyone the ability to keep using all their old stuff for pennies on the pound compared to what it cost to buy.

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21 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Hurts less than re buying everything, right?

Sure.  Getting only one arm amputated hurts less than 2, right?

14 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

A campaign pack is still a possibility I guess,

I honestly doubt it's as bleak as you think, but to each his own.

An actual campaign pack could bring me back to the fold.

Trust me, the fact that I had been pro 2.0 is not lost on me.  I think it's hilarious that this is being so well embraced by what seemed to be a bunch of naysayers. 

They changed cards, dials and stands.   You are rebuying the game; it just looks like you're not rebuying the game. 

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1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Sure.  Getting only one arm amputated hurts less than 2, right?

An actual campaign pack could bring me back to the fold.

Trust me, the fact that I had been pro 2.0 is not lost on me.  I think it's hilarious that this is being so well embraced by what seemed to be a bunch of naysayers. 

They changed cards, dials and stands.   You are rebuying the game; it just looks like you're not rebuying the game. 

I've never made a secret of wanting a 2.0, I've just never really believed it was going to happen.

I was expecting this to be a Solo related announcement, just maybe a Solo coreset.

But with hindsight, it explains a lot about how the last few waves have gone, both in terms of felling like they're messing with new mechanical options, and being kinda slow to respond and react.

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$20-30 makes sense if they weren't changing much.

However, they're changing **** near everything. Ordnance has a new mechanic governing charges. Turrets have new mechanics. Bombs have new mechanics. Some of those prior fixes, like VI and Guidance Chips, probably aren't coming back.  The range of pilot skills has been significantly compressed.

Meanwhile, Older ships are getting new dials and actions. The Firespray finally has a hard-1 turn and Reinforce instead of Evade. The Advanced dial is no longer a steaming pile of garbage.  The Lambda will replace the Firespray and SF as the only Imperial ship with a rear firing arc. I'm assuming the HWK is getting both that fancy dial with the Reverse maneuver we see in the Rebel Conversion article, and I'll be shocked if they don't also take advantage of this chance to address it's primary attack value and the Blaster Turret.  Many pilots appear to be getting completely new or adjusted abilities and upgrade options, like Horton's EPT.

All these new mechanics means new point cost pricing, which means additional costs for design, testing and balancing. Pair that with what is reported as more than 100 upgrade cards per faction kit, and $50 seems like a fairly reasonable price point. A single pack should easily let you field a competative 200-point squad right away. You only need a second box if you want to spend your 200 points on a single chassis type, like an eight-ship TIE swarm.

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3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Sure.  Getting only one arm amputated hurts less than 2, right?

An actual campaign pack could bring me back to the fold.

Trust me, the fact that I had been pro 2.0 is not lost on me.  I think it's hilarious that this is being so well embraced by what seemed to be a bunch of naysayers. 

They changed cards, dials and stands.   You are rebuying the game; it just looks like you're not rebuying the game. 

The option is not playing.

Take that option.

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Reposting something I've been spreading around a bit, to show folks that the cost of conversion won't be as steep in practice as it seems right now:

I was initially frustrated by the cost to update, especially since my collection is pretty modest and missing most of the recent releases. But I anticipate that eBay will be invaluable, as folks divide up the conversion kits... the Imperial box has 34 different dials, so you're looking at less than $1.50 per dial at the end of the day. For some folks, it may be cheaper to buy the conversion components for specific ships online. Or  trade them with friends/sell them yourself, to help recoup the cost of the conversion kits. For instance, Imperials are my "main" faction -- but I'll only need 14 of the dials out of the conversion kit (and 2 extras not included). I expect that I can trade or sell the 20 remaining dials/pieces of cardboard I won't need to recoup  some of the cost. I don't have many Rebel ships, which means it may wind up being more cost effective for me to try and get the specific cardboard pieces I need for them online/through trades rather than dropping the full $50.

Factor in this secondary market, I think converting your collection over will be much cheaper than folks are calculating right now. I expect it'll cost me a little over $100 to update: 1 Imperial conversion, 1 Scum conversion, and a Core Set all at the standard online discount (I don't have an FLGS). I can trade or sell off the components I don't need to get the dials/bases/pilots for the few Rebel ships I have in my collection, and put the rest in my pocket. My collection is probably on the small-to-average size, but I'm sure that the conversion will be cheaper for people willing to take advantage of the secondary market. Just don't pay the full $50 for a bunch of conversion packs, and then let a heap of unused and unwanted cardboard sit around. Find ways to trade or sell it, and in turn help someone else out who may only need a few extra dials.

Edited by sionnach19

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4 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

 A single pack should easily let you field a competative 200-point squad right away. 

Everyone saying "No big deal" assumes everyone else plays this game like that. 

We do not.

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

The option is not playing.

Take that option.

It seems likely. 

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12 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Everyone saying "No big deal" assumes everyone else plays this game like that. 

We do not.

So what are the limits you are running into outside of competative play that cannot be solved by proxying? The only things I can come up with are dials and maybe ship tokens.

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4 hours ago, kellyj said:

Except 2 of my kids play at the tourny level so thats 3x each kit...450-500 to keep us all legal. And to think i left Games Workshop because of this kind of reboot$$$$ 

At least with Warhammer 40k all you  have to do is buy a new rulebook and army book when a new edition is released. You don't have to buy conversions kits to make all your models legal again...

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33 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

$20-30 makes sense if they weren't changing much.

However, they're changing **** near everything. Ordnance has a new mechanic governing charges. Turrets have new mechanics. Bombs have new mechanics. Some of those prior fixes, like VI and Guidance Chips, probably aren't coming back.  The range of pilot skills has been significantly compressed.

Meanwhile, Older ships are getting new dials and actions. The Firespray finally has a hard-1 turn and Reinforce instead of Evade. The Advanced dial is no longer a steaming pile of garbage.  The Lambda will replace the Firespray and SF as the only Imperial ship with a rear firing arc. I'm assuming the HWK is getting both that fancy dial with the Reverse maneuver we see in the Rebel Conversion article, and I'll be shocked if they don't also take advantage of this chance to address it's primary attack value and the Blaster Turret.  Many pilots appear to be getting completely new or adjusted abilities and upgrade options, like Horton's EPT.

All these new mechanics means new point cost pricing, which means additional costs for design, testing and balancing. Pair that with what is reported as more than 100 upgrade cards per faction kit, and $50 seems like a fairly reasonable price point. A single pack should easily let you field a competative 200-point squad right away. You only need a second box if you want to spend your 200 points on a single chassis type, like an eight-ship TIE swarm.

I feel the need at this to add my two cents...

These are important mechanical changes, to be sure, but they do not constitute much of a new game.  This is still the same game, for all intents and purposes.  The core mechanics and brain-pleasure-centers that it hits are effectively the same.  That the Advanced doesn't suck isn't a new game, it's a tweak to an old game.  Why would I, why would anyone (who is not in it for the competitive scene), lay down hundreds of bucks for tweaks?

Let's take the Legion vs. Imperial Assault controversy recently as an analogy.  To some extent I got the dismay from the IA folk because they wanted IA to be backwards compatible with Legion.  I also understood and accepted that Legion was enough of a different game, with significant gameplay differences both in terms of mechanics, aesthetics, scale, etc. to warrant a new buy-in. 

This is not a new game.  This is not Legion to IA.  This is tweaked X-Wing, with new mechanics and patched older mechanics.  I have no idea how anyone can justify this as being so significantly different (barring some major changes to old mechanics, I mean fundamental differences not just tweaks) as to warrant a $100+ buy-in just to get the cards to make it work and guarantee continued support.

Anecdotally, I'm the only person in my community, literally the only person in 100 miles, who has any kind of tabletop gaming anything.  I run a wargames club at the school I teach at and these kids can't afford their own stuff, so I stock all three factions so they can play games and have a fun place to hang out after school every week.  That means a minimum buy in of $180 to keep this game going with the new version.

So no thanks on that personally, but to each their own.

Edited by Varulfr

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I don't know why people bring up Warhammer edition changes when they mention edition changes. In Warmachine/Hordes, edition changes cost $60, a $10 card pack and a new rule book. You know what this edition could have been? A cheap card pack and new rule book. FFG is juicing you for everything they can and you're happy about it. 

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1 minute ago, AceWing said:

I don't know why people bring up Warhammer edition changes when they mention edition changes. In Warmachine/Hordes, edition changes cost $60, a $10 card pack and a new rule book. You know what this edition could have been? A cheap card pack and new rule book. FFG is juicing you for everything they can and you're happy about it. 

People mention Warhammer because it is another widely popular tabletop miniatures game with multiple editions (up to 8th now) that don't require "conversion kits" for your models. You just buy a new rulebook and your particular faction's army book. That's it.  FFG isn't juicing me for anything. I'm not paying the 250-300 USD plus taxes my wife and I would need to keep playing.

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2 hours ago, Werewolf_nr said:

In my opinion, 20-30 dollars would have been more appropriate, more because of the forced upgrade than the economics. Admittedly, I'd probably still bite even at 35 or 40.

 

If my conversation with an old FLGS owner is still true, FFG charges 70% of MSRP to the store. The MAP is currently 15% off (with a change on the horizon), which seems to be consistent with the profit margin for the retailer (sourced from current FLGS owner). Beyond that I can really only guess as their internal profit margins, but another 20-30% seems reasonable. So 50-60% of the sticker is mark-up. Plugging all that in to your $25/unit cost says $50 MSRP; but again, they should be taking a smaller margin on the forced upgrade as a long term buffer against community backlash.

 

Fantasy Flight does not have a MAP/minimum advertised price.  FFG has said publicly they will not implement one.

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Just now, SoonerTed said:

Fantasy Flight does not have a MAP/minimum advertised price.  FFG has said publicly they will not implement one.

My FLGS owner disagrees. 15% off according to him. Chance it could be from the distributor?

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45 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

I've never made a secret of wanting a 2.0, I've just never really believed it was going to happen.

I was expecting this to be a Solo related announcement, just maybe a Solo coreset.

But with hindsight, it explains a lot about how the last few waves have gone, both in terms of felling like they're messing with new mechanical options, and being kinda slow to respond and react.

yep, "Hear that Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability" 

I just...couldn't...anymore...needed 2.0

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3 minutes ago, Werewolf_nr said:

My FLGS owner disagrees. 15% off according to him. Chance it could be from the distributor?

If they have a MAP, then it is a reversal of what was said at GAMA when the price increases (cuts to wholesale discounts) were announced.

FFG said they were not considering nor would implement MAP.

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14 minutes ago, Bulwyf said:

People mention Warhammer because it is another widely popular tabletop miniatures game with multiple editions (up to 8th now) that don't require "conversion kits" for your models. You just buy a new rulebook and your particular faction's army book. That's it.  FFG isn't juicing me for anything. I'm not paying the 250-300 USD plus taxes my wife and I would need to keep playing.

I know it looks like I was replying to you but it just happened that I was replying to another comment a couple pages earlier without quoting. I hope you're not offended at my comment. I wasn't trying to bash you.

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I stopped playing competitively in 2014, bought 1-2 expansions in 2015 and decided I still didn’t like the state of the game nor it’s direction. I’ve played casually with friends ever since.  People can quibble about whether this is a new game or not but it’s different enough from 1.0 that I’m interested in it again. And I don’t have to buy $20+ packs for EACH ship in my existing collection. This is the most logical path for the future of Xwing IMHO. We have months to save up if we need to, nobody has a gun to our head to buy all the 2.0 stuff at once, and our 1.0 stuff doesn’t mysteriously disappear.

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44 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Everyone saying "No big deal" assumes everyone else plays this game like that. 

We do not.

Yeah. You guys are a little bit special. Several thousand dollars into the game, not interested in tournament play, yet interested in having the correct cards and opposed to just using 3rd party solution as well. 
Though you guys can still play 1.0 just fine. Which would make your collection mostly completed as well I guess. Which is not necessary a bad thing either. 

I know that I would just print out proxies in your situation. But that's me, not you and if you don't like that I can relate to your pain. Sucks when you don't get what you want. Guess I am on the lucky side of things, because I get something that I want out of this 2.0 thing, while I really was not wanting a 2.0 release. It still seems just like it is made for me.  

Now I just need one little thing. A-Wings and TIE-Fighters conversion kits in the next tournament kit and I would actually be hyped about going the last 1.0 tournaments as well. 

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3 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

Yeah, at $30 I'd be stoked. At $40 I'd be happy. At $50? Twice. Per faction? That's... that's a lot of money. I'm going to have to think hard about whether I want to keep playing. 

Which sucks: 2.0 does look like a major improvement to the 1.0 experience. But I don't know if I'm going to be able to afford to play. 

 

Yeah I agree.  I don't know or care if FFG is justified in asking that much.  I have a collection that probably cost $1k CAD, excluding epic.  Now to convert it I need to pay almost 40% of that cost again  (2x rebel, 2x empire, 1x new order, 1x resistance, 1x core).  I can't justify it.

It's MSRP though, I'll have to see what it costs when it hits my FLGS.

 

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