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Draw Closer Opposed check?

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6 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

So if your player says Draw Closer teleports the target, that's OK? What if it involves hentai genital-tentacles of grasping & groping? The trappings matter and the trappings of Draw Closer have always been described as telekinetic, so why change that?

I've seen enough hentai to see where this is going... *shivers*

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Oooh I wanna use Draw Closer to bring my opponent from 1 minute in the past and hack off his arm.....

Because that would be a perfectly valid use according to the wacky logic being applied.

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1 hour ago, Decorus said:

Oooh I wanna use Draw Closer to bring my opponent from 1 minute in the past and hack off his arm.....

Because that would be a perfectly valid use according to the wacky logic being applied.

Not if your GM didn't allow it. Which is the whole point. 

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On 5/8/2018 at 8:53 PM, Daeglan said:

Please point to EXACTLY where in the Talent it says it is a telekinetic talent. Because I checked it does not say it is telekinetic. Jedi path is irrelevant. It is not a game book.
All it says is you spend force points to move a target. It does not however say in what manner the force does so.
Please stop relying on non game books to justify your thoughts. The game is not as rigid as you are. And it is not as rigid as you are on purpose. Because it allows one to accomplish much more that way. Just like Bind can be force choke or other force power effects that hold a person in place. Unleash is force lightning or drain life or any other for power that inflicts damage. This game is not meant to be as rigid as you keep trying to make it.

The Jedi Path is very relevant specifically because that is where Draw Closer originated. It is the Primary source for the talent. All of the powers on these books have original sources from the canon and Legends material. Draw Closer comes from the Jedi Path and The Force Unleashed, and is specifically a telekinetic ability.

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7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The Jedi Path is very relevant specifically because that is where Draw Closer originated. It is the Primary source for the talent. All of the powers on these books have original sources from the canon and Legends material. Draw Closer comes from the Jedi Path and The Force Unleashed, and is specifically a telekinetic ability.

Actually, the primary source for the talent is the Force and Destiny Core Rulebook as we are discussing the mechanics of a game rule here. Sure, the fluff can be used to make sense of it, but generally I'd say the rulebooks trump all the lore in a galaxy far, far, away everytime when we're discussing the rules. Insisting that the lore has any other bearing on the rules than inspiration and how you narrate them is just a recipe for disaster.

Then again, rules discussions do tend to bring out the sous-chefs of disaster...

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1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

Actually, the primary source for the talent is the Force and Destiny Core Rulebook as we are discussing the mechanics of a game rule here. Sure, the fluff can be used to make sense of it, but generally I'd say the rulebooks trump all the lore in a galaxy far, far, away everytime when we're discussing the rules. Insisting that the lore has any other bearing on the rules than inspiration and how you narrate them is just a recipe for disaster.

Then again, rules discussions do tend to bring out the sous-chefs of disaster...

Nope. The primary sources are the ones I mentioned above. The game designers created the talent based upon those sources. It's not something they created whole cloth. A primary source is the source from which something first appears

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1 hour ago, penpenpen said:

Actually, the primary source for the talent is the Force and Destiny Core Rulebook as we are discussing the mechanics of a game rule here. Sure, the fluff can be used to make sense of it, but generally I'd say the rulebooks trump all the lore in a galaxy far, far, away everytime when we're discussing the rules. Insisting that the lore has any other bearing on the rules than inspiration and how you narrate them is just a recipe for disaster.

Then again, rules discussions do tend to bring out the sous-chefs of disaster...

According to the director of the last Star Wars movie The Jedi Path the source for the force power Luke used to project himself across the galaxy.  I agree with Tramp it is the primary source for Draw Closer.

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3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Nope. The primary sources are the ones I mentioned above. The game designers created the talent based upon those sources. It's not something they created whole cloth. A primary source is the source from which something first appears

There are no rules for the game we are discussing in the books you mentioned. This a discussion of rules, not lore, and where the two meet in the game, rules trump lore. Otherwise people could claim it to be unrealistic that the queen in chess is more powerful than her knights and soldiers or that the rook, being a representation of a castle, can move at all. Bringing up non-game material is only barely more relevant than quoting D&D rules in this case.

Also, please try to use bold text a little more responsibly and a lot more sparingly, as your posts come across as the speeches of a badly written comic book villain mixed with the outbursts of a petulant child, and it's frankly tiring to read and not doing your arguments any favors.

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1 minute ago, penpenpen said:

There are no rules for the game we are discussing in the books you mentioned. This a discussion of rules, not lore, and where the two meet in the game, rules trump lore. Otherwise people could claim it to be unrealistic that the queen in chess is more powerful than her knights and soldiers or that the rook, being a representation of a castle, can move at all. Bringing up non-game material is only barely more relevant than quoting D&D rules in this case.

Also, please try to use bold text a little more responsibly and a lot more sparingly, as your posts come across as the speeches of a badly written comic book villain mixed with the outbursts of a petulant child, and it's frankly tiring to read and not doing your arguments any favors.

The game rules are based upon the lore. As such, the lore is vital to this discussion. Every Force power and every Force talent comes from a source within the existing lore. Draw Closer, and how it works comes from The Jedi Path and The Force Unleashed. As such, those are the primary sources and determine exactly how the talent works. Draw Closer is a telekinetic ability. 

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2 minutes ago, Eoen said:

According to the director of the last Star Wars movie The Jedi Path the source for the force power Luke used to project himself across the galaxy.  I agree with Tramp it is the primary source for Draw Closer.

Inspiration, sure. But it's not the source of the rules. The talent clearly does not require any skill with the Move power and leaves it open to the players and GM to narrate it as they please. 

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1 minute ago, Eoen said:

According to the director of the last Star Wars movie The Jedi Path the source for the force power Luke used to project himself across the galaxy.  I agree with Tramp it is the primary source for Draw Closer.

One of the primary sources the Jedi Path might be for Draw Closer (though pretty sure it showed up in WotC's Jedi Academy Training Manual first), but it's also ultimately irrelevant as to how the mechanical effects of the talent itself, and is equally irrelevant to the rules of how the Draw Closer works.  And I'm sure there's plenty elements of Jedi Path (which is Legends) that have been completely and totally contradicted by the new canon, first and foremost being that Luke had a successful Jedi Academy with a thriving student body as opposed to the shattered ruin.  So the core concept of the book (that it's an old Jedi tome discovered and handed over to Luke) has already been made null and void under the new canon.

Lay you odds that if someone asked the devs if Draw Closer could be described as using psychic suggestion or teleportation or purely verbal-taunting or some other non-telekinetic method, the reply would be along the lines of "sure, if it works for your group, do it!"

Just because a few folks here are so narrow-minded or utterly lacking in imagination as to the mechanical aspects of a game effects can be narrated doesn't mean that other groups are similar limited.

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So Tramp is to literal and PenPenPen is a rules lawyer is what I'm getting out of this thread.  As I posted days ago do what ever is entertaining for you at your table.

Edited by Eoen

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1 minute ago, penpenpen said:

Inspiration, sure. But it's not the source of the rules. The talent clearly does not require any skill with the Move power and leaves it open to the players and GM to narrate it as they please. 

No, not just "inspiration". The book specifically says how Draw Closer works. It is the very basis for the mechanics used for the talent within the game. 

Just now, Donovan Morningfire said:

One of the primary sources the Jedi Path might be for Draw Closer (though pretty sure it showed up in WotC's Jedi Academy Training Manual first), but it's also ultimately irrelevant as to how the mechanical effects of the talent itself, and is equally irrelevant to the rules of how the Draw Closer works.  And I'm sure there's plenty elements of Jedi Path (which is Legends) that have been completely and totally contradicted by the new canon, first and foremost being that Luke had a successful Jedi Academy with a thriving student body as opposed to the shattered ruin.  So the core concept of the book (that it's an old Jedi tome discovered and handed over to Luke) has already been made null and void under the new canon.

Lay you odds that if someone asked the devs if Draw Closer could be described as using psychic suggestion or teleportation or purely verbal-taunting or some other non-telekinetic method, the reply would be along the lines of "sure, if it works for your group, do it!"

Just because a few folks here are so narrow-minded or utterly lacking in imagination as to the mechanical aspects of a game effects can be narrated doesn't mean that other groups are similar limited.

Nope. As has already been mentioned, The Jedi Path is still relevant even for canon material. Ryan Johnson drew from it for Luke's use of Doppleganger to face Kylo Ren, for instance. The book specifically describes what Draw Closer does, and how it does it. That is specifically what the game developers used when writing the talent. 

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17 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

 As such, those are the primary sources and determine exactly how the talent works. 

Well, why bother with the rule books then? I understand that you're proud of your star wars trivia lore, (I believe most of us here are once we got past the shame ;) ), and want to apply it to your game. But remember, it's a Star Wars game and as such depends upon rules to make the mechanics work. Sometimes these mechanics gel perfectly with the lore, and sometime they don't. If we're discussing the rules, we have to stick to what they are, not what you want them to be based on sources that are only meant to add flavor, not crunch, to the game.

And really, man, the bold text. Should I assume you scream every other word when you talk to people in real life as well?

13 minutes ago, Eoen said:

So Tramp is to literal and PenPenPen is a rules lawyer is what I'm getting out of this thread.  As I posted days ago do what ever is entertaining for you at your table.

I only lawyer when someone tries quoting the bible in court and tries to pass it off as the law. ;)

Edited by penpenpen

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9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, not just "inspiration". The book specifically says how Draw Closer works. It is the very basis for the mechanics used for the talent within the game. 

Nope. As has already been mentioned, The Jedi Path is still relevant even for canon material. Ryan Johnson drew from it for Luke's use of Doppleganger to face Kylo Ren, for instance. The book specifically describes what Draw Closer does, and how it does it. That is specifically what the game developers used when writing the talent. 

To be fair I have that book and the description of Doppleganger is not exactly how Luke uses it.

"Doppelganger, or Similfuturus, permits a Jedi to create a short-lived duplicate of himself or herself or an external object that is visually indistinguishable from the real item. Those who have perfected this ability can create phantoms of any person of their choosing or trick an enemy into seeing more objects, such as droids, than are actually present."

- Wallace, Daniel. The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force (Star Wars) (Kindle Location 219). becker&mayer! Press. Kindle Edition. 

Edited by Eoen

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1 minute ago, Eoen said:

To be fair I have that book and the description of Doppleganger is not how Luke uses it.

"Doppelganger, or Similfuturus, permits a Jedi to create a short-lived duplicate of himself or herself or an external object that is visually indistinguishable from the real item. Those who have perfected this ability can create phantoms of any person of their choosing or trick an enemy into seeing more objects, such as droids, than are actually present."

- Wallace, Daniel. The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force (Star Wars) (Kindle Location 219). becker&mayer! Press. Kindle Edition. 

Wow, you mean that the general results of a previously established force power can be achieved by slightly different means? If this only was relevant to the topic at hand!

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1 minute ago, penpenpen said:

Well, why bother with the rule books then? I understand that you're proud of your star wars trivia lore, (I believe most of us here are once we got past the shame ;) ), and want to apply it to your game. But remember, it's a Star Wars game and as such depends upon rules to make the mechanics work. Sometimes these mechanics gel perfectly with the lore, and sometime they don't. If we're discussing the rules, we have to stick to what they are, not what you want them to be based on sources that are only meant to add flavor, not crunch, to the game.

And really, man, the bold text. Should I assume you scream every other word when you talk to people in real life as well?

I only lawyer when someone tries quoting the bible in court. ;)

The rules provide the game mechanics. The Lore describes what the talent actually does. The game mechanics are you use a Force Point to move the target to you in order to strike them. The Lore states that this is done by telekinetically pulling the target to you. Thus, that is how the talent works. It is a telekinetic ability, and that is also how the Developers intended it, and that is how it is written. You move the target using the Force. 

6 minutes ago, Eoen said:

To be fair I have that book and the description of Doppleganger is not how Luke uses it.

"Doppelganger, or Similfuturus, permits a Jedi to create a short-lived duplicate of himself or herself or an external object that is visually indistinguishable from the real item. Those who 

have perfected this ability can create phantoms of any person of their choosing or trick an enemy into seeing more objects, such as droids, than are actually present."

- Wallace, Daniel. The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force (Star Wars) (Kindle Location 219). becker&mayer! Press. Kindle Edition. 

I disagree there. How Luke used it is very much with what's said in the book. It's also very much in line with how he used it in Dark Empire (where the power first appeared). The only real difference is how much of a physical  toll it took on him. 

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6 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

Wow, you mean that the general results of a previously established force power can be achieved by slightly different means? If this only was relevant to the topic at hand!

It's completely relevant to the topic at hand it, this entire thread is about able using drawer closer with a different general result from something previously established.

Edited by Eoen

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6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The rules provide the game mechanics. The Lore describes what the talent actually does. The game mechanics are you use a Force Point to move the target to you in order to strike them. The Lore states that this is done by telekinetically pulling the target to you. Thus, that is how the talent works. It is a telekinetic ability, and that is also how the Developers intended it, and that is how it is written. You move the target using the Force. 

I disagree there. How Luke used it is very much with what's said in the book. It's also very much in line with how he used it in Dark Empire (where the power first appeared). The only real difference is how much of a physical  toll it took on him. 

You don't need to know the lore to play the game, and knowing the lore may even detract from enjoyment of the game.  Though I do like the lore.

That quote is the entire entry in that book about "Doppleganger" no mention what so ever about being able to project it in a galactic scale, or droids being effected by it as C-3PO was, or solid illusions with tactile qualities like the dice.

 

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2 minutes ago, Eoen said:

It's completely relevant to the topic at hand it, this entire thread is about able using drawer closer with a different general result from something previously established.

I apologize for not making my sarcasm clearer. I would insist that this reply is not sarcastic, but sadly that would most likely make it seem more sarcastic, not less.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The rules provide the game mechanics. The Lore describes what the talent actually does. The game mechanics are you use a Force Point to move the target to you in order to strike them. The Lore states that this is done by telekinetically pulling the target to you. Thus, that is how the talent works. It is a telekinetic ability, and that is also how the Developers intended it, and that is how it is written. You move the target using the Force. 

Yet, the lore isn't required reading, nor mentioned in the book. If it's not in the game, it's effectively a house rule, which is perfectly fine to use at your own table. But you can't wave it around and demand others to use it, lest they be doing things wrong. Claiming that you need to know the lore, specifically your own interpretation of it, to play the right way is a thing called "Gatekeeping". That is a very Richard thing to do. Don't be a Richard.

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7 minutes ago, Eoen said:

You don't need to know the lore to play the game, and knowing the lore may even detract from enjoyment of the game.  Though I do like the lore.

That quote is the entire entry in that book about "Doppleganger" no mention what so ever about being able to project it in a galactic scale, or droids being effected by it as C-3PO was, or solid illusions with tactile qualities like the dice.

 

In Dark Empire Luke also projected a Doppleganger over extreme distances as well from the planet Byss, maintaining it even as the Millennium Falcon left the planet and entered Hyperspace (not quite as far as across the galaxy, but still). Not even R2D2 could tell that it wasn't Luke until after Luke told them that he was still on the planet. so, yes, it worked on droids.

3 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

I apologize for not making my sarcasm clearer. I would insist that this reply is not sarcastic, but sadly that would most likely make it seem more sarcastic, not less.

Yet, the lore isn't required reading, nor mentioned in the book. If it's not in the game, it's effectively a house rule, which is perfectly fine to use at your own table. But you can't wave it around and demand others to use it, lest they be doing things wrong. Claiming that you need to know the lore, specifically your own interpretation of it, to play the right way is a thing called "Gatekeeping". That is a very Richard thing to do. Don't be a Richard.

That's not the point though. The point is that the lore proves that the talent is a telekinetic talent, since it is the lore that originated it. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

In Dark Empire Luke also projected a Doppleganger over extreme distances as well from the planet Byss, maintaining it even as the Millennium Falcon left the planet and entered Hyperspace (not quite as far as across the galaxy, but still). Not even R2D2 could tell that it wasn't Luke until after Luke told them that he was still on the planet. so, yes, it worked on droids.

That's not the point though. The point is that the lore proves that the talent is a telekinetic talent, since it is the lore that originated it. 

Dark Empire is a comic book, and totally not Disney. 

Like I said your letting your knowledge of lore detract from enjoyment of a game. Like those soured fans who love Star Wars hate clickbate, and can’t enjoy the new movies or shows.

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Just now, Eoen said:

Dark Empire is a comic book, and totally not Disney. 

Like I said your letting your knowledge of lore detract from enjoyment of a game. Like those soured fans who love Star Wars hate clickbate, and can’t enjoy the new movies or shows.

Nah. I love all of the lore, new and old. My point was the Ryan Johnson has gone on record saying he specifically used Doppleganger in TLJ as what Luke did to appear on Crait. 

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I think Tramp is basically correct that Draw Closer was drawn from star wars lore and games past (by name even) but that doesn't mean we have to be so pedantic about it because it adds nothing of value to the game.  The mechanics do not require it to be telekinetic (that's not even a concept in the mechanics) but it seems to imply it narratively.  Which means PCs and GMs are free to play with it any way they want (of course being an RPG this is true about everything in the game).

Draw Closer means you're using the Force to aid you in a Lightsaber attack but doesn't insist in any way how that happens only that it is Lightsaber attack that *may* move them.  The Talent doesn't even insist the target actually move mechanically (you can use it against an opponent at Engaged Range).  Same thing with Hawkbat Swoop - you're using the Force to aid in making a Lightsaber attack letting you get closer if you need to.  It's implied it's an "acrobatic" attack but all that stuff is really left up to the players at the table.  This game as designed encourages players to use the "theater of the mind" to make a cool story.  Getting bogged down in useless pedantics detracts from that.

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27 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's not the point though. The point is that the lore proves that the talent is a telekinetic talent, since it is the lore that originated it. 

No, it suggests it could be. I would emphasize this but I think you have used more than everyone's fair share of typographical frivolities already.

The only thing that proves anything about the rules (emphasis: rules) are the rules themselves and the devs' commentaries. But hey, your inability to separate crunch from fluff is nothing new, so unless you have a point to make (but please, for the love of George, not in bold type), I'll be bowing out of this subtopic for tonight.

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