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shamp

Draw Closer Opposed check?

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Draw Closer is an awesome Talent and I don't want to rob my PCs from using bit but I see that its not technically a Force Power so it cannot be opposed by the target's skills in say--Discipline? Seems odd that a nemesis character  can get moved about willy nilly (with an attack against them) but can't oppose with a skill check. I suppose their ranks in adversary should be enough (lol). The Talent has the target moved through the Force correct? If its just compulsion its even more reason that certain named NPCs should be allowed to use Discipline. I was just wondering if there was an official ruling on allowing an opposed check to be moved. 

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14 hours ago, shamp said:

Draw Closer is an awesome Talent and I don't want to rob my PCs from using bit but I see that its not technically a Force Power so it cannot be opposed by the target's skills in say--Discipline? Seems odd that a nemesis character  can get moved about willy nilly (with an attack against them) but can't oppose with a skill check. I suppose their ranks in adversary should be enough (lol). The Talent has the target moved through the Force correct? If its just compulsion its even more reason that certain named NPCs should be allowed to use Discipline. I was just wondering if there was an official ruling on allowing an opposed check to be moved. 

Keep in mind that Draw Closer requires a Lightsaber combat check, which means the target uses anything that would modify a combat roll as such, including ranks in Adversary, ranks in Dodge (or the like), and any melee defense.

There is no "official ruling" (e.g. Developer answered) that allows a target to instead resist this attack as an opposed check that I am aware of.

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If you want to abuse Draw Closer, just fly above your enemies (by whatever means) and drawn them up to you. Even if they survive the lightsaber strike, the falling rules of this system can be a real killer.

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1 hour ago, HappyDaze said:

If you want to abuse Draw Closer, just fly above your enemies (by whatever means) and drawn them up to you. Even if they survive the lightsaber strike, the falling rules of this system can be a real killer.

Please don't give my PCs any ideas....

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6 hours ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Keep in mind that Draw Closer requires a Lightsaber combat check, which means the target uses anything that would modify a combat roll as such, including ranks in Adversary, ranks in Dodge (or the like), and any melee defense.

There is no "official ruling" (e.g. Developer answered) that allows a target to instead resist this attack as an opposed check that I am aware of.

I will have to ensure my Big Bads have Dodge and Side step. I know putting them in a squad also makes it impossible, as that increases the target's silhouette by 1, making it impossible to move with Draw Closer.

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Draw Closer Force leap away Premptive avoidance...

Rinse Repeat.

I would strongly advise against making it impossible to use players tend to get upset when you ruin the ability for them to actually use the talents they spent hard earned xp on.

Edited by Decorus

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I think with any of these things there has to be a  measure of common sense. "Draw Closer" isn't meant to telekinetically drag an opponent around the battlefield. It really should be used, and then described cinematically as the PC using their skills to force an opponent into a particular spot, feinting, ducking, weaving, and sprinkling their attacks with kicks and hilt-punches that move their opponent to where they want to go. 

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17 hours ago, Daronil said:

I think with any of these things there has to be a  measure of common sense. "Draw Closer" isn't meant to telekinetically drag an opponent around the battlefield. It really should be used, and then described cinematically as the PC using their skills to force an opponent into a particular spot, feinting, ducking, weaving, and sprinkling their attacks with kicks and hilt-punches that move their opponent to where they want to go. 

No, it actually IS supposed to be dragging your opponent towards you with TK.

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17 hours ago, Daronil said:

I think with any of these things there has to be a  measure of common sense. "Draw Closer" isn't meant to telekinetically drag an opponent around the battlefield. It really should be used, and then described cinematically as the PC using their skills to force an opponent into a particular spot, feinting, ducking, weaving, and sprinkling their attacks with kicks and hilt-punches that move their opponent to where they want to go. 

 

2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

No, it actually IS supposed to be dragging your opponent towards you with TK.

@HappyDaze is correct. Draw Closer is specifically designed to mimic a move seen in the old Jedi Knight, Jedi Academy game using the Fast Style using Pull combined with a lightsaber strike resulting in you pulling an opponent to you and skewering him on the lightsaber. 

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Draw Closer nearly brings a Lightsaber User up to the power level of an optimized Ranged Attack Force User, right?

Ranged attackers of course already have the range - no check ever needed - and they can dish out easily as much damage if not a lot more with certain mods and Talents (albeit no Breach, of course).

Is it really that big of a deal?

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3 hours ago, emsquared said:

Draw Closer nearly brings a Lightsaber User up to the power level of an optimized Ranged Attack Force User, right?

Ranged attackers of course already have the range - no check ever needed - and they can dish out easily as much damage if not a lot more with certain mods and Talents (albeit no Breach, of course).

Is it really that big of a deal?

It is when your saber-jockey is flying above his victims and uses Draw Closer for a lift/slice/drop combo.

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17 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

It is when your saber-jockey is flying above his victims and uses Draw Closer for a lift/slice/drop combo.

I think I'd rule in that situation that "Draw Closer" sort of forces an opponent to stumble towards the user. Apart from anything else, it seems a bit silly to me for someone to pick up a talent which can do what would otherwise be limited to a few levels of purchase of Move or Bind. 

They can pick someone up and move them around in lightsabre combat, but can't pick up a cargo drum during non-combat time? Hmmm...doesn't gel with me. 

So I just wouldn't allow the fly-over/pickup/dice/drop at my table.

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27 minutes ago, Daronil said:

I think I'd rule in that situation that "Draw Closer" sort of forces an opponent to stumble towards the user. Apart from anything else, it seems a bit silly to me for someone to pick up a talent which can do what would otherwise be limited to a few levels of purchase of Move or Bind. 

They can pick someone up and move them around in lightsabre combat, but can't pick up a cargo drum during non-combat time? Hmmm...doesn't gel with me. 

So I just wouldn't allow the fly-over/pickup/dice/drop at my table.

There are many talents that contain limited/specific applications of what is otherwise included in a broad-application Force power.

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9 hours ago, Daronil said:

I think I'd rule in that situation that "Draw Closer" sort of forces an opponent to stumble towards the user. Apart from anything else, it seems a bit silly to me for someone to pick up a talent which can do what would otherwise be limited to a few levels of purchase of Move or Bind. 

They can pick someone up and move them around in lightsabre combat, but can't pick up a cargo drum during non-combat time? Hmmm...doesn't gel with me. 

So I just wouldn't allow the fly-over/pickup/dice/drop at my table.

Rules as explicitly written, HappyDaze is correct in that a PC could abuse the **** out of Draw Closer to also inflict falling damage, which is often going to be a lot worse than whatever damage the lightsaber attack could inflict.  It's cheesy and a munchkin thing to do, but it's within the rules as written as the talent doesn't say the user is limited to moving the target horizontally.

Granted, as the GM you're within your rights to say that in order for the talent to work at all there has to be a 'safe place' for the target to land before the player can slash into them with their lightsaber, so it becomes a case of 1) pull target to you, 2) deposit them more or less on the ground, and 3) attack with lightsaber.

That being said, as a GM rather than "nerfing" Draw Closer, I'd suggest that the GM start handing out a plethora of Conflict for using the talent this way.  I'd suggest 6 as the base minimum, probably higher if using the talent this way becomes the PC's go-to tactic, and at least 10 if they start to really relish how much damage this cheesy combo can inflict on a foe.

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13 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

It is when your saber-jockey is flying above his victims and uses Draw Closer for a lift/slice/drop combo.

So, a couple things here:

A Jedi can exploit falling damage without flying. Even getting damage in, in the same round with a Hurl (of the NPC against a high ceiling), a properly upgraded Bind, or Talents that allow you Force Power use as a Maneuver (granted both are possibly less damaging/sustainable, but are also easier in some cases).

So if my Player wants to buy a jetpack, and invest the xp and effort into make this cheese his "thing"... whatever. I have tools to address cheese as GM.

If they're not wearing a jetpack, how are they managing it? Because "flying" via Move would require an action every round. And if they're on a vehicle, then that's just one of the many potential benefits of conducting personal-scale combat from a vehicle.

As for addressing the cheese, this narrative system allows the GM tremendous latitude in addressing something like this. So first, this kind of attack (while flying/out of your "element", could be the same penalties for attacking underwater or in vacuum) should be more Difficult. Manifested here specifically I'd say via a couple Upgrades to attack Difficulty and Setbacks (2, minimum?).

Donovan beat me to the Conflict portion, but this is a blatant power-grab through the Force, GM would be fully within their rights to assign Conflict for this action (warning the Player beforehand of course).

Finally, I don't really care if the PCs are doing this unless it's against an Adversary, right? Minions are there to get embarrassed in this fashion. And Asversaries have ALL KINDS of ways to protect themselves against this, including the Talent that decreases fall damage, an out of turn Force Power Talent, turning this tactic back on the PCs ("Really dude? You wanna go there? Oooook...."), and of course Destiny Points.

I still think this seems like another big nothing amongst all the other potential cheese out there.

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3 hours ago, emsquared said:

So, a couple things here:

A Jedi can exploit falling damage without flying. Even getting damage in, in the same round with a Hurl (of the NPC against a high ceiling), a properly upgraded Bind, or Talents that allow you Force Power use as a Maneuver (granted both are possibly less damaging/sustainable, but are also easier in some cases).

So if my Player wants to buy a jetpack, and invest the xp and effort into make this cheese his "thing"... whatever. I have tools to address cheese as GM.

If they're not wearing a jetpack, how are they managing it? Because "flying" via Move would require an action every round. And if they're on a vehicle, then that's just one of the many potential benefits of conducting personal-scale combat from a vehicle.

As for addressing the cheese, this narrative system allows the GM tremendous latitude in addressing something like this. So first, this kind of attack (while flying/out of your "element", could be the same penalties for attacking underwater or in vacuum) should be more Difficult. Manifested here specifically I'd say via a couple Upgrades to attack Difficulty and Setbacks (2, minimum?).

Donovan beat me to the Conflict portion, but this is a blatant power-grab through the Force, GM would be fully within their rights to assign Conflict for this action (warning the Player beforehand of course).

Finally, I don't really care if the PCs are doing this unless it's against an Adversary, right? Minions are there to get embarrassed in this fashion. And Asversaries have ALL KINDS of ways to protect themselves against this, including the Talent that decreases fall damage, an out of turn Force Power Talent, turning this tactic back on the PCs ("Really dude? You wanna go there? Oooook...."), and of course Destiny Points.

I still think this seems like another big nothing amongst all the other potential cheese out there.

Also Droid advisaries can magneticly lock them self down to say ship surfaces.

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9 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

That being said, as a GM rather than "nerfing" Draw Closer, I'd suggest that the GM start handing out a plethora of Conflict for using the talent this way.  I'd suggest 6 as the base minimum, probably higher if using the talent this way becomes the PC's go-to tactic, and at least 10 if they start to really relish how much damage this cheesy combo can inflict on a foe.

Those that want to play dark siders would adore you for making it this easy for them to go full dark.

In general, I advise against using Conflict to punish power-gaming and/or rules abuse, because in-game mechanics are not intended to combat player dickery.

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On 5/1/2018 at 7:07 PM, shamp said:

I will have to ensure my Big Bads have Dodge and Side step. I know putting them in a squad also makes it impossible, as that increases the target's silhouette by 1, making it impossible to move with Draw Closer.

No. Give them adversary. That is what it is for. So you dont have to keep track of a dozen talents.

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21 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Rules as explicitly written, HappyDaze is correct in that a PC could abuse the **** out of Draw Closer to also inflict falling damage, which is often going to be a lot worse than whatever damage the lightsaber attack could inflict.  It's cheesy and a munchkin thing to do, but it's within the rules as written as the talent doesn't say the user is limited to moving the target horizontally.

Granted, as the GM you're within your rights to say that in order for the talent to work at all there has to be a 'safe place' for the target to land before the player can slash into them with their lightsaber, so it becomes a case of 1) pull target to you, 2) deposit them more or less on the ground, and 3) attack with lightsaber.

That being said, as a GM rather than "nerfing" Draw Closer, I'd suggest that the GM start handing out a plethora of Conflict for using the talent this way.  I'd suggest 6 as the base minimum, probably higher if using the talent this way becomes the PC's go-to tactic, and at least 10 if they start to really relish how much damage this cheesy combo can inflict on a foe.

I think I'll just nerf it so that it's a "nudge" with the Force so that the opposing characters gets shoved, rather than bodily picked up. 
That said, I obviously need to go through the talents again with a fine-tooth comb. 

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14 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Those that want to play dark siders would adore you for making it this easy for them to go full dark.

In general, I advise against using Conflict to punish power-gaming and/or rules abuse, because in-game mechanics are not intended to combat player dickery.

And yet it's something that is fully within the theme of the game, that using the Force in a malicious manner (pulling them up to you to hack at them with your weapon before letting them plummet to their quite likely doom) is very much the sort of thing a dark sider would do.  To quote a very useful bit of advice regarding the assignment of Dark Side Points in older SWRPGs, "if what you're doing is the sort of thing that would make Palpatine cackle with glee, then it's worth a Dark Side Point."

The Conflict rules are there as a means for the GM to say "yes, you can do this evil thing, but there's a consequence."  That's literally what they are in the game for, as an in-game mechanic devised to, as you say, "punish" the character for doing dickish things, like stealing from the needy, causing needless property damage, up to torture and outright murder.

Further, if a player really wants to be a full-bore dark side jerkass, there are easier and far more accessible methods to accomplish that feat than Draw Closer.  The classic cheesy munchkin tactic of using Move with a Strength Upgrade (20XP) to lift a target up into the air and then let them plummet is just one instance and can be acquired by a starting character with ease.  Or just capping a helpless person in the back of the head with a blaster, which only costs the price of the blaster and is an easy way to generate at least 10 conflict per execution.

Then again, I don't game with those sorts of folks as I play and run RPGs with the notion the PCs are generally heroic and aren't a pack of sociopathic murder-hobos looking to paint the stars with the blood of the innocent.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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Except for the fact that it isn't malicious at all or what a dark sider would do.

The only way a force sensitive character earns conflict in combat is from starting it.

Yanking someone into mid air smacking them with a lightsaber and letting them fall to doom is just as bad as hacking off an arm or shooting them in the face with a blaster. Or dropping a rock on them from above.

There is nothing moral or right or correct about shooting some dude in the face so unless you are giving conflict for any action taken that could harm another being you are being unfair to the players.

Combat falls into this:

Did the player start it?

Yes = Conflict

Are the opponents armed or a threat?

No= Conflict

Did the player attack them after they tried to surrender?

Yes = Conflict

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On 5/2/2018 at 4:38 PM, HappyDaze said:

No, it actually IS supposed to be dragging your opponent towards you with TK.

This is definitely the intent, I agree. But I like to leave it open for players to narrate their actions in fun ways that don't match the dev intent.

When the Niman PC in my game uses draw closer on a tough enemy like a Sith, we will often decide it's too silly to imagine him dragging the NPC around like Snoke does to Rey. Instead we'll say that he baited the enemy into his line of attack with a taunt or a false opening.

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