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RikBardoon

Airspeeders Vs Impact Grenades

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Hello,

I was playing against my friend the other day and I tried to have my airspeeder quickly pass his troops' front lines so it could take out the AT-ST in the back. (This was a long map, so it was shooting mortar fire at my units.) My friend only had regular Stormtroopers, with no heavies. Only upgrades he had was impact grenades and an extra trooper. He had a LOT of troopers and was trying to see if he could swarm the field.

So, my point is, I was flying past, but he managed to activate some troopers before I could fly the airspeeder away. He moved over and threw his impact grenades, getting his 5 black dice with Impact 5. In the end, this proved to be more deadly than shooting my airspeeder with his AT-ST, as he had all of his troopers with grenades.

The problem is, I don't understand how a bunch of Stormtroopers with grenades were able to hit and destroy an airspeeder? If it were missiles, it would make sense, but this is thrown grenades. The speeder gets Cover 1, I assume to represent it's speed and aerial maneuverability, but that only removes one of the 5 dice. 

Is this really what is intended to happen with Impact Grenades and airspeeders? Did I miss something?

Advice and opinions are welcome.

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I believe it is intended, albeit somewhat weird. But heh, it's a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. Maybe these grenades are somewhat magnetic and self homing or something. Remember you can also dodge with the airspeeder. It is already immune to melee.

Rule number 1 of good speeders: do not get close to anything that isn't suppressed or looking the other way.

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Air speeders are capable of getting up reasonably high, but they are repulser craft and generally only fly a few meters above the ground.  They are moving fast, but not fighter craft fast.  in Empire an AT-AT was able to turn it's entire head to track a passing T-47 and shoot it out of the sky.  Even if the impact grenades aren't magnetic (which they very well may be), they do detonate on impact.. hence the name. All the Stormies would need to do is throw them in such a way that the T-47 runs into them.  As I said in another post asking the same thing.. If a kid can hit a passing car with a snowball, soldiers can hit an air speeder with a grenade.  

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Impact Grenades typically have to move and throw, so there is no aiming except for those units that can move and attack with the move action. As such you are at the mercy of a completely random roll, sure everything after the throw is going to impact, so if your opponent gets lucky he can manage to get a huge number of hits but he also stands a fair chance of missing and then having a unit standing in the open.

If you can support your T-47 as to have something to shoot back with, or arm it with the rear firing gun, you can at least ensure your opponent is appropriately rewarded for running out into the open.

I have read historical accounts of battles where tanks would withdraw when they came under fire from small arms, when they lacked infantry support. So support your tanks they need it! ?

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3 hours ago, xbeaker said:

Air speeders are capable of getting up reasonably high, but they are repulser craft and generally only fly a few meters above the ground.  They are moving fast, but not fighter craft fast.  in Empire an AT-AT was able to turn it's entire head to track a passing T-47 and shoot it out of the sky.  Even if the impact grenades aren't magnetic (which they very well may be), they do detonate on impact.. hence the name. All the Stormies would need to do is throw them in such a way that the T-47 runs into them.  As I said in another post asking the same thing.. If a kid can hit a passing car with a snowball, soldiers can hit an air speeder with a grenade.  

While that is true for the Speeder Bikes, I disagree about the height of the air speeders. For aircraft, they would fly low to the ground, but they still commonly flew high enough to be above tree-tops and was used as an aerial vehicle. They were even used to fight other aircraft for that reason. I agree about speed not protecting them from grenades, (and would use your same argument for why speeder bikes can be hit by grenades,) but my issue is that an Airspeeder is more akin to an airplane. The issue isn't the speed, but the height that it flies at, which leads me to feel it should not be so easily hit by Impact grenades. 

2 hours ago, Amanal said:

Impact Grenades typically have to move and throw, so there is no aiming except for those units that can move and attack with the move action. As such you are at the mercy of a completely random roll, sure everything after the throw is going to impact, so if your opponent gets lucky he can manage to get a huge number of hits but he also stands a fair chance of missing and then having a unit standing in the open.

If you can support your T-47 as to have something to shoot back with, or arm it with the rear firing gun, you can at least ensure your opponent is appropriately rewarded for running out into the open.

I have read historical accounts of battles where tanks would withdraw when they came under fire from small arms, when they lacked infantry support. So support your tanks they need it! ?

While you are right that there is often not much aiming, you still have a fairly good chance to hit. The impact grenades are black dice, so Stormtroopers have a 50% chance to hit, and the Airspeeder only has a 30% chance of negating a hit. (White die with defense surge.) With 5 Stormtroopers in a squad, I'm still getting hit with 4 dice, each with 50% chance to hit. Considering the Airspeeder only has 7 hit points, that's a lot of damage that it's risking, comparable, if not better, to facing down an AT-ST, and that's only one squad. 

Additionally, you have the issue that best weapon to respond with is the ground buzzer, which only has a range of 1-2, so there's a good chance that you will get hit with grenades if you try to use it. Not to mention that, since it's a rear-firing weapon, the only way you can effectively use it is if you fly past enemy lines, (thus strafing) which puts you at risk of getting more than one squad attacking you if you stop to shoot.

I agree about the issue of needing to support your tanks with infantry support. That is the exact same ideology that I approach my AT-RTs and the AT-ST with. They can be vulnerable, even to blaster fire, and should not move ahead of the infantry if possible. However, the airspeeder isn't supposed to be a tank. It's supposed to be a fast attack vehicle, similar to the speeder bikes. It should be making hit-and-run attacks and strafing back and forth over the enemy lines. With the compulsory move and speed-3 maneuver it has to make, it's not like you can keep up with it to provide support either. (Not if you want it to be effective, that is.)

 

My issue is that the Air speeder is being treated like an aerial tank and not like an actual aircraft. It is able to ignore a lot of terrain when moving, but it is treated as if it is barely above the ground when people are firing at it. If this is supposed to be an air speeder in combat, then it should be at least at height 2, like the AT-ST is. I feel that FFG gave it Cover 1 in an attempt to simulate this idea, but with the way grenades work, this is almost completely ineffective for the concept. This might change with the new cover rules, but I am of the opinion that aerial vehicles should be immune to grenades. Even if you could throw grenades at an aerial vehicle, it should not be an easy thing to hit. I shouldn't be losing half of my health just because a squad of Stormtroopers decided to chuck some grenades in the air without caring that they would fall back down on them.

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1 hour ago, RikBardoon said:

My issue is that the Air speeder is being treated like an aerial tank and not like an actual aircraft.

It's not an aircraft, it's a repulsor vehicle, it is in many ways a fast moving tank.  Thinking of like a fighter jet or a X-Wing is wrong.  In ESB they were never that high off the ground.

Also Rules beats Fluff every time.   You quite simply can not give a special power to something just because you think that makes more sense, without a point cost or disadvantage of some sort, and what you want it to be able to do is completely ignore a 5 point upgrade.   It already is immune to melee so that helps fit the speeder part of it.

Finally height 2 is not that high in game, and I know for a fact I can throw a grenade at least that far.  I've done it in the past, so even if the speeder was at height 2, I'd still be able to chuck a grenade at it.  It's also not like they're going to throw them straight up into the air, so your "not caring where they land" is nonsense.  They'd throw them in a arc to catch the speeder as it flies by.  It's also not like they are easy to hit... You can't aim so you're taking raw dice.

But again, the fact that I could actually do that, which means every stormtroper or rebel trooper could do the same thing... Doesn't matter, because the rules aren't based on what you think makes sense.  They're based on what makes the rules work.  You clearly don't think the T-47 is worth the points, and that's fair.  But that doesn't mean it should get special rules or be able to ignore mechanics.  

In this case the T-47 could only do what you want, via some sort of special rule which means a point cost increase.  Also it's almost a certainty that the whole point of impact grenades were to deal with things like the T-47. 

Lastly the AT-ST isn't really at height 2, it's at height 0-2, so it's not like it's immune to grenades or melee for that matter.

Edited by VanorDM

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I suspect this is intended to happen, after all the Airspeeder was released simultaneously with expansions that include Impact Grenades. The reasons behind it are almost certainly 1) game balance and 2) ease of play.

Vehicles are cool, fun, and can be used very effectively in this game, but Legion seems to be balanced in a such a way as to encourage bringing many trooper units. Most of the objectives interact with trooper units and the army organization requirements mandate a minimum number of trooper units as well. At this point in the game's life, it seems the developers don't want players to feel like they have to bring vehicles. If Impact Grenades didn't work against the Airspeeder, it could upset the way the game is balanced.

Also, including too many narrowly specific and restrictive rules makes the game more difficult to play and (generally speaking) less fun. Imagine a rulebook exceptions to the basic attack rules with entries like "Impact Grenades cannot be used against the T-47 Airspeeder" or even "Units with Speeder X cannot be targeted by weapons with a maximum range that is less than X." It is pretty clear that the developers have gone with a streamlined approach to the rules in order to appeal to a broad audience.

Unfortunately, this means that the one's immersion may suffer at times. Still, it seems to me that in the Star Wars universe bringing repulsor vehicles down with grenades is hardly unlikely. Just remember moments like this:

Image result for chirutt shoots down tie fighter

Or this:

Image result for at-st destroyed by ewoks

Or this:

Image result for atat shooting down snowspeeder

Edited by ShadowKite
grammar

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2 hours ago, RikBardoon said:

While that is true for the Speeder Bikes, I disagree about the height of the air speeders. For aircraft, they would fly low to the ground, but they still commonly flew high enough to be above tree-tops and was used as an aerial vehicle. They were even used to fight other aircraft for that reason. I agree about speed not protecting them from grenades, (and would use your same argument for why speeder bikes can be hit by grenades,) but my issue is that an Airspeeder is more akin to an airplane. The issue isn't the speed, but the height that it flies at, which leads me to feel it should not be so easily hit by Impact grenades. 

Additionally, you have the issue that best weapon to respond with is the ground buzzer, which only has a range of 1-2, so there's a good chance that you will get hit with grenades if you try to use it. Not to mention that, since it's a rear-firing weapon, the only way you can effectively use it is if you fly past enemy lines, (thus strafing) which puts you at risk of getting more than one squad attacking you if you stop to shoot.

My issue is that the Air speeder is being treated like an aerial tank and not like an actual aircraft. It is able to ignore a lot of terrain when moving, but it is treated as if it is barely above the ground when people are firing at it. If this is supposed to be an air speeder in combat, then it should be at least at height 2, like the AT-ST is. I feel that FFG gave it Cover 1 in an attempt to simulate this idea, but with the way grenades work, this is almost completely ineffective for the concept. This might change with the new cover rules, but I am of the opinion that aerial vehicles should be immune to grenades. Even if you could throw grenades at an aerial vehicle, it should not be an easy thing to hit. I shouldn't be losing half of my health just because a squad of Stormtroopers decided to chuck some grenades in the air without caring that they would fall back down on them.

But the T-47 isn't a n aircraft.  It is limited in height to what it's repulsers can provide as lift.  In ESB it is very clearly following the topography as it moves along.  They can fly above tree top, yes.  Height 2 would get them over many normal height trees.  In a rain forest they may even be able to repulse off a canopy if the jungle is dense enough.  But the fact remains standard operating height is well within reach of a good throw.  And it well below what an aircraft would fly at. 

Also keep in mind that it being used to take on ground targets.  It is doing so with top mounted, fixed blasters.  The only way it is getting shots in is either staying VERY low and firing ahead of it, or coming in at a decent and strafing it's targets.  So if it is going to be in the fight, it need to be low enough to be vulnerable to attack as well.  It isn't flying at maximum height, it is coming down to get it's shots one way or another.  

As for the ground buzzer, you should be firing that as you pass by.  Main guns on the approach of course.  Then when your compulsory move takes you past your target you fire your ground buzzer THEN take you move action to get some distance.  If you have troopers with impact grenades, don't hang around.  Compulsory move + 2 move actions should keep you WELL outside of their 1 range.  You have the advantage of speed, you should almost never be in a position where they can throw grenades at you. 

The +1 cover for the speeder is clearly to simulate hitting a fast moving target.  Speeder Bikes have the same advantage but don't get as high.  Also Speeder bikes are technically capable of flying at the top of height 1.  If they were to fly at that height, the way you assume the T-47 is usually at the top of height 2, they they should be immune to melee as well.  No way a rebel trooper is hitting a bike 20' off the ground.  But normal height for them is only about 2' off the ground, and they are assumed to be at that height unless they need to get over something.  

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