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Crawfskeezen

Second Attacks; Son of Skywalker

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1 hour ago, Deuzerre said:

Nothing in the rules state that you should move minis in step 9. You remove the mini from the speeder after causing it unsaved wounds (step 9), causing luke to not be in melee anymore because he's not in contact with an enemy mini.
Then you try to apply Melee page 32, last dot, but it can't apply since you aren't in contact with any mini from your unit (you have a single mini) and thus cannot move in base contact again.
 

As @nashjaee pointed out, pg 14 says “During a melee attack, the attacker and defender are in a melee [...]

Since step 9 is still a part of the attack, this applies.

So if we are implicitly in melee during an attack, it doesn’t matter if your base to base or not. That only matters outside of the attack sequence.

The mini is wounded and removed from the table during step 9, before the attack sequence is finished. THis is why page 14s reference is important.

So since you are stil in melee during the attack sequence, as soon as your not b2b during a melee, you apply the last bullet point on page 32.

Reading it again, it very explicitly has a section covering this exact scenario. It uses a different example, but it’s still the scenario we are talking about.

What Alex’s Email brings to light for us was the part of page 14 that was pointed out. Using this understanding, everything resolves per RAW and in line with his instructions.

”Whenever there are minis that are not in base contact with an enemy mini but those minis have a melee weapon and the unit to which they belong is in a melee, those minis must be placed in base contact with an enemy mini in the same melee as their unit if possible. This can happen when minis in a melee suffer wounds and are defeated, creating space
for other minis that were not previously in base contact to be place in base contact.”

Edited by Thoras

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No.
"Melee" specifically says, in the rules, that models need to be in contact.
If something says different implicitly, it is countered by the other rule specifically saying so.
You are not in melee if all the other (enemy) models you were in contact with are dead and none of the units in your squad are in melee (contact) themselves.

Implicit < Specifically.

And even if what you said is correct : "they say that they are in melee for the duration of the attack" Once that attack ends (after the attack action), that's it, the unit isn't in melee anymore because it killed the only model it was in contact with. if it doesn't have any contact with a target, none of the squads minis are in contact with the enemy unit. No more melee.

The part you quoted I'll quote back at you:
"but those minis have a melee weapon and the unit to which they belong is in a melee"
It isn't in melee anymore, as per the rules' definition of melee P32 and since the attack has ended.

"Melee represents close combat between opposing units. When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee."

Edited by Deuzerre

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44 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

No.
"Melee" specifically says, in the rules, that models need to be in contact.
If something says different implicitly, it is countered by the other rule specifically saying so.
You are not in melee if all the other (enemy) models you were in contact with are dead and none of the units in your squad are in melee (contact) themselves.

Implicit < Specifically.

And even if what you said is correct : "they say that they are in melee for the duration of the attack" Once that attack ends (after the attack action), that's it, the unit isn't in melee anymore because it killed the only model it was in contact with. if it doesn't have any contact with a target, none of the squads minis are in contact with the enemy unit. No more melee.

The part you quoted I'll quote back at you:
"but those minis have a melee weapon and the unit to which they belong is in a melee"
It isn't in melee anymore, as per the rules' definition of melee P32 and since the attack has ended.

"Melee represents close combat between opposing units. When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee."

The rules say during a melee attack, you are in melee. End of sentence. It’s very specific wording with little ambiguity (my usage of implicit was the second definition/understanding in the merriam Webster definition of the word, not the first as you seem to have read it). 

Lets try another way though

Do you agree page 14 says during an melee attack, you are in melee? And that this is regardless of b2b status or not? You had to get b2b to start this, but that sentence says once it’s started, b2b is irrelevant?

Do you agree that wounds are assigned and models removed during step 9 of the attack sequence?

Edited by Thoras

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@Thoras has nailed it. I’ll just add:

You are not implicitly in a melee during that attack.

You are explicitly in a melee during that attack.

1 hour ago, Deuzerre said:

The part you quoted I'll quote back at you:
"but those minis have a melee weapon and the unit to which they belong is in a melee"
It isn't in melee anymore, as per the rules' definition of melee P32 and since the attack has ended.

No! You are in a melee due to page 10! The rules provide 2 possible requirements for a melee. One of them is being met in this scenario.

Also due to Alex. You want to disagree with a game dev? That’s a losing battle, my friend ?

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During the attack. Once the attack ends, and the kills have been moved out of the combat, You a re not in melee anymore (no one in contact) and the attack has ended (so you aren't in melee since you aren't in the attack action anymore, so that point is moot.

What is so hard to understand about that?

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10 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

During the attack. Once the attack ends, and the kills have been moved out of the combat, You a re not in melee anymore (no one in contact) and the attack has ended (so you aren't in melee since you aren't in the attack action anymore, so that point is moot.

What is so hard to understand about that?

If any opposing minis are still standing, this line triggers during step 9 (trimmed for clarity):

Quote

Whenever there are minis that are not in base contact [...] those minis must  be placed in base contact with an enemy mini.

The requirements are “whenever”, “not in base contact”, “have a melee weapon”, and “in a melee”. All 4 of these requirements are met at step 9 when you defeat some minis in the unit but leave others standing.

So, no, the melee does not end after the attack is over since you are supposed to still be in base contact with something at that point.

Edited by nashjaee
Forgot the 4th req, melee weapon

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12 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

During the attack. Once the attack ends, and the kills have been moved out of the combat, You a re not in melee anymore (no one in contact) and the attack has ended (so you aren't in melee since you aren't in the attack action anymore, so that point is moot.

What is so hard to understand about that?

This demonstrates the crux of the misunderstanding I think.

The “kills” are moved out of combat during the attack, not after it. As nashjaee says. It’s during step 9 itself that they are wounded and removed.

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I am impressed that this argument had gone on for four pages.  I would say at this point we have an email from the dev with the RAI and pretty good case on how this is actually correct in RAW.  At this point I’m just here for the popcorn, since I am pretty sure the updated RRG will clarify it clearly.

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I didn't bother reading the entire thread, but I will address the OP, which Alex already answered.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/273458-answered-questions-email-compilation/

Q: When is a "melee" officially over? Immediately when the 2 units no longer have minis in base contact? Or at the end of the attack action? As an example: Luke is in base contact with a non-leader speeder bike mini. He performs an attack action and deals 3 wounds. Is the melee still in effect, causing Luke to move into base contact with the other speeder mini (since Luke has a melee weapon)? 2nd example: Luke is in base contact with 4 out of 6 Stormtroopers. He defeats the 4 he is in contact with. Is he still technically in a melee with the other 2?

 A: A melee between two units lasts until all the miniatures in one of the units are defeated, or one of the minis moves away. In your first example, after Luke defeats the non-leader Speeder Bike, he must be moved into base contact with the leader speeder. In your second example, Luke is indeed still in melee with the two remaining stormtroopers and must be moved into base contact with at least one of them.

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19 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I didn't bother reading the entire thread, but I will address the OP, which Alex already answered.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/273458-answered-questions-email-compilation/

Q: When is a "melee" officially over? Immediately when the 2 units no longer have minis in base contact? Or at the end of the attack action? As an example: Luke is in base contact with a non-leader speeder bike mini. He performs an attack action and deals 3 wounds. Is the melee still in effect, causing Luke to move into base contact with the other speeder mini (since Luke has a melee weapon)? 2nd example: Luke is in base contact with 4 out of 6 Stormtroopers. He defeats the 4 he is in contact with. Is he still technically in a melee with the other 2?

 A: A melee between two units lasts until all the miniatures in one of the units are defeated, or one of the minis moves away. In your first example, after Luke defeats the non-leader Speeder Bike, he must be moved into base contact with the leader speeder. In your second example, Luke is indeed still in melee with the two remaining stormtroopers and must be moved into base contact with at least one of them.

Haha, yeah this is the thread that elicited this email in the first place.

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