Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Crawfskeezen

Second Attacks; Son of Skywalker

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Not quite.

The unit must be in melee for the melee attack to happen at all. During this attack resolution, both bikes would be eligible to receive damage.

Once damage is assigned, assuming Luke were in contact with the non-leader model only, it would be possible to resolve the attack in such a way that the units are no longer in melee. RAW, he would not then move to the second bike because he is only one model and he is no longer in melee. RAI is less clear. It's possible that he would be intended to then move on to the next bike, it's possible he wouldn't.

The stormtrooper unit in the example is composed of multiple miniatures, some of which are still in melee upon attack resolution, causing the rest to move into contact.

Luke is one model. When he is no longer in base-to-base, he is out of melee. There is no second miniature to keep him in melee.

I await the rules email reply on this one curiously.

By your own argument, a miniature is not in melee with a miniature.  A unit is in Melee with the whole of the unit.  If Luke's "unit" was in melee with bike 2 when the attack started then Luke must still be in melee with it.  That his attack cause the mini he was in contact with to be removed means that he should immediately be placed in base contact with another mini of the other unit in melee. 

I agree it will be interesting to see what FFG says though.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, xbeaker said:

  If Luke's "unit" was in melee with bike 2 when the attack started then Luke must still be in melee with it.  

Why?

Where is this stated?

The board state can be different when an attack begins from after the attack resolves, in fact it often is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

By your own argument, a miniature is not in melee with a miniature.  A unit is in Melee with the whole of the unit.  If Luke's "unit" was in melee with bike 2 when the attack started then Luke must still be in melee with it.  That his attack cause the mini he was in contact with to be removed means that he should immediately be placed in base contact with another mini of the other unit in melee. 

I agree it will be interesting to see what FFG says though.  

(For the record, I’m on your side on that front. I think Luke should move. ?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Derrault said:

And, conversely, when no minis from the units are in base contact they are no longer in melee. (Which makes Luke ineligible for moving to the next mini automatically after the attack is done).

Well I hope Alex does see the problem this creates, because in these 1 vs Many Melee a player could position his troops in such a way as to leave survivors that won't be in base contact and for many players such rules minutia will create a negative play experience.

For example if Vader attacks 6 troopers many players will just form a hexagonal shape around Vader, however, knowing that no base contact end melee players then start forming squares and leaving one or two models out of contact. Thus if Vader gets 4-5 wounds, which is highly likely the survivors can flee, probably with an objective.

If you don't end Melee combat until after the units in melee complete bullet point 7 then the surviving troopers have to retreat and likely give Vader a follow up attack. Alternatively perhaps for Melee you assign wounds to models that are not in base contact first and avoid this that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, we have a ruling. Luke does indeed have to move into contact with the other mini(s).

Quote

 

Q:  When is a "melee" officially over? Immediately when the 2 units no longer have minis in base contact? Or at the end of the attack action? As an example: Luke is in base contact with a non-leader speeder bike mini. He performs an attack action and deals 3 wounds. Is the melee still in effect, causing Luke to move into base contact with the other speeder mini (since Luke has a melee weapon)? 2nd example: Luke is in base contact with 4 out of 6 Stormtroopers. He defeats the 4 he is in contact with. Is he still technically in a melee with the other 2?

A: A melee between two units lasts until all the miniatures in one of the units are defeated, or one of the minis moves away. In your first example, after Luke defeats the non-leader Speeder Bike, he must be moved into base contact with the leader speeder. In your second example, Luke is indeed still in melee with the two remaining stormtroopers and must be moved into base contact with at least one of them.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, nashjaee said:

Of course you don't believe me ?. But it's a fair point, I should post the screenshots. I like posting the text because it's searchable. Alex Davy responded via email.

 

melee_email_answer.jpg

Huzzah, Son of Skywalker isn’t undermined against speeder bikes!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But what about wounds? In your 2 examples, if Luke gives 4 wounds to the bike unit, or 5 wounds to stormtrooper unit, could he give wounds to miniatures who are not in base contact?

 

[edit] I've seen now it's already answered few posts earlier.

Edited by airshow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, because for that action they are "in melee", in range, whatever.

KJust liek for shooting: If only one model is in range, all the others are in range

Edited by Deuzerre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pg32. • Whenever there are minis that are not in base contact with 
an enemy mini but those minis have a melee weapon and 
the unit to which they belong is in a melee, those minis must 
be placed in base contact with an enemy mini in the same 
melee as their unit if possible. This can happen when minis 
in a melee suffer wounds and are defeated, creating space 
for other minis that were not previously in base contact to 
be place in base contact. If both players own minis that are 
not in base contact with an enemy mini and should be, the 
player that is currently activating a unit or has most recently 
activated a unit (even if that unit is not the unit with minis 
that should be placed in base contact with enemy minis) 
should move their minis into base contact with enemy minis 
before the other player does so. If neither play has activated 
a unit yet this round, the blue player should move their 
minis first.
 

So after first Attack Luke can close in basically

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, no, because of this bolded part
 

Quote

Whenever there are minis that are not in base contact with 
an enemy mini but those minis have a melee weapon and 
the unit to which they belong is in a melee,

Neither unit is in melee because of the space after the attack.
This only applies if a unit has some models still in melee but not all of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

Actually, no, because of this bolded part
 

Neither unit is in melee because of the space after the attack.
This only applies if a unit has some models still in melee but not all of them.

Except the email from Alex tells us Luke vs two speeders, Luke closes in on the second speeder when the first dies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's that base contact is what's need at the start of a melee but while the attack is happening you no longer have to check for base contact and are just still in melee. Like after luke kills the first bike he then moves into contact with the second because you don't have to check for base contact at that time to determine melee, he's still in the melee from his first melee attack

Edited by Themoaningwhale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Deuzerre said:

Well then he said something that doesn't fit with the rules as RAW. They will ahve to make it clearer.

There is also this passage on page 14, using the "during" timing:

Quote

During a melee attack, the attacker and defender are in a melee [...]

I think Alex's email is telling us that this takes precedence. If the attack started in melee, melee continues to exist during the attack. So we shouldn't do any re-checks for melee until after. So there is still a RAW interpretation that supports Alex's clarification.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Themoaningwhale said:

I think it's that base contact is what's need at the start of a melee but while the attack is happening you no longer have to check for base contact and are just still in melee. Like after luke kills the first bike he then moves into contact with the second because you don't have to check for base contact at that time to determine melee, he's still in the melee from his first melee attack

What I mean is that according to the rules (as RAW), there are two conditions to move the unit back in contact:
- You must have a melee weapon (so the bikes wouldn't have to, they lack a melee weapon)
- The unit of your mini must be in melee

Page 32 specifies "When two miniatures from opposing players' units are in base contact, those units are in melee"

Lacking any physical contact (due to the losses), the melee is gone, according to the rules.

Luke has a melee weapon: Check
His unit is in melee: No check -> his mini doesn't touch an enemy mini, thus no melee.

Now, one of the devs said that wasn't the case. Fine, I'd apply it this if the rules didn't clearly state otherwise. But until the rules are modified, the rules are pretty clear and I'll keep applying them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

What I mean is that according to the rules (as RAW), there are two conditions to move the unit back in contact:
- You must have a melee weapon (so the bikes wouldn't have to, they lack a melee weapon)
- The unit of your mini must be in melee

Page 32 specifies "When two miniatures from opposing players' units are in base contact, those units are in melee"

Lacking any physical contact (due to the losses), the melee is gone, according to the rules.

Luke has a melee weapon: Check
His unit is in melee: No check -> his mini doesn't touch an enemy mini, thus no melee.

Now, one of the devs said that wasn't the case. Fine, I'd apply it this if the rules didn't clearly state otherwise. But until the rules are modified, the rules are pretty clear and I'll keep applying them.

Did you happen to see my previous post? That passage from page 14 is telling us that melee exists throughout the duration of the attack. So we still have a RAW method of reaching the email's conclusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

What I mean is that according to the rules (as RAW), there are two conditions to move the unit back in contact:
- You must have a melee weapon (so the bikes wouldn't have to, they lack a melee weapon)
- The unit of your mini must be in melee

Page 32 specifies "When two miniatures from opposing players' units are in base contact, those units are in melee"

Lacking any physical contact (due to the losses), the melee is gone, according to the rules.

Luke has a melee weapon: Check
His unit is in melee: No check -> his mini doesn't touch an enemy mini, thus no melee.

Now, one of the devs said that wasn't the case. Fine, I'd apply it this if the rules didn't clearly state otherwise. But until the rules are modified, the rules are pretty clear and I'll keep applying them.

But I think the base touching is only what's needing to initiate the melee. Once the attack has begun you're still in melee until the attack is done, even if you stop being in base contact during the attack. Then, before the attack is done you move luke to maintain contact, thus never having a chance to leave the melee condition. 

 

3 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Did you happen to see my previous post? That passage from page 14 is telling us that melee exists throughout the duration of the attack. So we still have a RAW method of reaching the email's conclusion.

I believe this is the correct interpretation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, nashjaee said:
Quote

What I mean is that according to the rules (as RAW), there are two conditions to move the unit back in contact:
- You must have a melee weapon (so the bikes wouldn't have to, they lack a melee weapon)
- The unit of your mini must be in melee

Page 32 specifies "When two miniatures from opposing players' units are in base contact, those units are in melee"

Lacking any physical contact (due to the losses), the melee is gone, according to the rules.

Luke has a melee weapon: Check
His unit is in melee: No check -> his mini doesn't touch an enemy mini, thus no melee.

Now, one of the devs said that wasn't the case. Fine, I'd apply it this if the rules didn't clearly state otherwise. But until the rules are modified, the rules are pretty clear and I'll keep applying them.

Did you happen to see my previous post? That passage from page 14 is telling us that melee exists throughout the duration of the attack. So we still have a RAW method of reaching the email's conclusion.

As for the duration of the attack: The first attack was applied (so they were in melee for its duration), then son of skywalker pops in after the attack. Just after as page 11 tells us: "If the timing of an ability uses the word “after,” that ability’s effect occurs immediately after the described timing event has occurred.". The first attack ended, this is not simultaneous.

Son of skywalker reads "After luke skywalker performs his first attack, he may perform an additional attack", 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Deuzerre said:

As for the duration of the attack: The first attack was applied (so they were in melee for its duration), then son of skywalker pops in after the attack. Just after as page 11 tells us: "If the timing of an ability uses the word “after,” that ability’s effect occurs immediately after the described timing event has occurred.". The first attack ended, this is not simultaneous.

Son of skywalker reads "After luke skywalker performs his first attack, he may perform an additional attack", 

When son of Skywalker occurs is actually irrelevant to his point.

He is suggesting that since you are in attack step 9 when assigning wounds(and thus attack step 9 when the first bike dies), you’d move luke into the next model during attack step 9.

Then since there is still another attack step to check, all of this is occurring during the attack.

Then when you proc son of skywalkers attack, your now still in melee

Edited by Thoras

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing in the rules state that you should move minis in step 9. You remove the mini from the speeder after causing it unsaved wounds (step 9), causing luke to not be in melee anymore because he's not in contact with an enemy mini.
Then you try to apply Melee page 32, last dot, but it can't apply since you aren't in contact with any mini from your unit (you have a single mini) and thus cannot move in base contact again.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...