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Crawfskeezen

Second Attacks; Son of Skywalker

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Just now, xbeaker said:

But you must be in base contact with a unit to damage it with melee.  The range damage precedent doesn't count as when the attack is initiated you determine the eligible targets.  The rules state that you are only in melee combat if you are in base contact "When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee." As the second speeder is not in melee, so it is not an eligible target.  Even Luke can't hit a guy so hard that his parnet feels it, unless he can position himself such that he is in base contact with both bikes at the same time of course.  

So functionally, yoi can have it so a member of a unit of 2 speeder bikes will be functionally immune to melee despite dice rolls?

 

I don’t buy it.

The Rules precedent already exists... why ignore it?  Especially since we already seem quite content to consider our static models “dynamic”... Luke can hit a bike so hard it crashes into the other...

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7 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

But you must be in base contact with a unit to damage it with melee.

[...]

As the second speeder is not in melee, so it is not an eligible target

Not really. When you are in base contact with a single mini, you are in a melee with its entire unit. And you deal wounds to the unit. You should be able to assign wounds to non-base-contact minis. This is punctuated by the line:

Quote

Minis that are not in base contact with an enemy mini can 
still contribute to a melee attack if the unit to which that 
mini belongs is in a melee.

 

Edited by nashjaee

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Just now, Drasnighta said:

So functionally, yoi can have it so a member of a unit of 2 speeder bikes will be functionally immune to melee despite dice rolls?

 

I don’t buy it.

The Rules precedent already exists... why ignore it?  Especially since we already seem quite content to consider our static models “dynamic”... Luke can hit a bike so hard it crashes into the other...

Yes, exactly.  The whole point of moving a squad with melee weapons into base contact is it represents a sort of bench clearing brawl.  Ther allies are engaged in combat and they can't fire into the mass because they would risk hitting allies.  So everyone holsters weapons and charges in to help out in melee range.  With the bikes they aren't pulling over to fight.  A bike can't be engaged.  So you get your 1 swing in as it does by.

And I don't buy that a rule used for measuring range changes who is eligible to be hit in melee.   

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Just now, xbeaker said:

Yes, exactly.  The whole point of moving a squad with melee weapons into base contact is it represents a sort of bench clearing brawl.  Ther allies are engaged in combat and they can't fire into the mass because they would risk hitting allies.  So everyone holsters weapons and charges in to help out in melee range.  With the bikes they aren't pulling over to fight.  A bike can't be engaged.  So you get your 1 swing in as it does by.

And I don't buy that a rule used for measuring range changes who is eligible to be hit in melee.   

Melee is a range.

The rules  for range apply, just at the appropriate range.

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9 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Not really. When you are in base contact with a single mini, you are in a melee with its entire unit. And you deal wounds to the unit. You should be able to assign wounds to non-base-contact minis. This is punctuated by the line:
Minis that are not in base contact with an enemy mini can 
still contribute to a melee attack if the unit to which that 
mini belongs is in a melee.

 

But that is in reference to minis that have been moved into base contact but there is no room for some.  That is for engages units, not units that have no melee.

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Just now, xbeaker said:

But that is in reference to minis that have been moved into base contact but there is no room for some.  That is for engages units, not units that have no melee.

No, this has nothing to do with engagement and nothing to do with moving into base contact. It’s a general bullet point under Melee on page 32. But the point is that this line emphasizes the fact that minis not in base contact are still part of the melee.

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2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Melee is a range.

The rules  for range apply, just at the appropriate range.

Melee is NOT a range.  It is a type of combat.  And a mini that is not in base contact is NOT in melee.  A mini that is not in melee can not be the target of a melee attack.  Even if it's unit is, much like LOS.  P. 32 "The target of the attack must be in the same melee as the attacker."

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1 minute ago, nashjaee said:

No, this has nothing to do with engagement and nothing to do with moving into base contact. It’s a general bullet point under Melee on page 32. But the point is that this line emphasizes the fact that minis not in base contact are still part of the melee.

yeah, it is the bullet point right after "When moving minis into base contact with enemy minis after a melee has been started, if there is not space to place a mini in base contact with an enemy mini in the same melee, that mini must still be placed in cohesion." It is clarification of minis that are being move to be engaged

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3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

In the absence of a specific rule that states there is no “overkill”, as an attack, the standard rules for attacking MUST apply, or you are just making up rules ...

 

Thats how I see it.

In the absence of a rule stating that units not in the melee are still susceptible to damage from melee, the standard rules for melee MUST apply, or you are just making up rules... 

That is how I see it.  

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Just now, xbeaker said:

In the absence of a rule stating that units not in the melee are still susceptible to damage from melee, the standard rules for melee MUST apply, or you are just making up rules... 

That is how I see it.  

Is melee not an attack?

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Just now, xbeaker said:

yeah, it is the bullet point right after "When moving minis into base contact with enemy minis after a melee has been started, if there is not space to place a mini in base contact with an enemy mini in the same melee, that mini must still be placed in cohesion." It is clarification of minis that are being move to be engaged

Clarifying bullet points are indented underneath the parent bullet point. At least that is the format we see elsewhere, including on the same page in the left column. This one is a stand-alone bullet.

You gotta be very careful with the vocabulary here, particularly unit and mini. Units are in melee if at least one of the minis is in contact with an enemy mini. Again, minis are not in a melee. Units are. The second sentence of the Melee section:

Quote

When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, 
those units are in a melee.

 I strongly suggest reading through the Melee section again and paying very close attention to where it says unit and where it says mini. I think that will help clear things up.

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Just now, Drasnighta said:

Is melee not an attack?

yes, but you are applying the range rules for ranged attacks to it.  It IS an attack, it is NOT a range.  Having 1 part of a unit in melee does not mean the entire unit is in melee.  Currently the speeder bikes are the only unit in which part of the unit can be in melee while the other remains out of it.  But the precident of only part of a unit being eligible based on position does exisit in the LOS.  As only 1 portion of the unit is eligible, it is the only part that can be damaged.  I do see your point.  I also see that my argument is no more air tight than any other as I am also using an example from ranged combat.  But the rules define what melee combat is, and who is in it.  It does not say that as long as any part of a unit is in melee "range" the whole unit is.  It only says that if a unit that has melee weapons enters melee then the rest of the unit must immediately join the melee.  So my view of it is that, yeah, the bike that Luke didn't get too is immune to his attack.  Sweating bullets and hoping the afterlife is kind to his partner as he speeds off, but Luke is only chopping the other guy up.  In RotJ they blow a bike up, hijack one, and Luke cuts the front off one, at no point is the other bike in danger when he does it.  So I can't get behind the idea that maybe the damaged bike is bumping the other one.  The empire seems to have made those bike primarily out of magnesium and flash paper they explode so quickly and so completely haha.  

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20 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

In the absence of a rule stating that units not in the melee are still susceptible to damage from melee, the standard rules for melee MUST apply, or you are just making up rules... 

That is how I see it.  

You seem to have fundamentally confused the word unit with the word miniature.

Units are composed of miniatures.

If the unit takes damage, it is then applied to miniatures.

Eligibility for a miniature to receive damage from a melee attack is based on whether or not a unit is in base-to-base and thus melee, not the figure in question.

Furthermore, range has nothing to do with the eligibility for a mini to take damage even as part of a ranged attack. The range between two units is the distance between the attacking unit leader and any miniature in the defending unit.

Were I firing at a unit with a Range 3 weapon and that unit only had one miniature at Range 3 with the rest beyond that range, all of the miniatures in the unit would still be eligible to receive damage as per RAW. You're thinking of LoS, and I seriously doubt there is any legitimate board state where you can be contacting one miniature of a speeder bike unit and not have LoS to the second.

Edited by Tvayumat

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9 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

Having 1 part of a unit in melee does not mean the entire unit is in melee. 


In fact, it explicitly and specifically does mean precisely that.

RRG, Page 32, Melee, first sentence

"When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee"
 

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1 minute ago, Tvayumat said:

You seem to have fundamentally confused the word unit with the word miniature.

Units are composed of miniatures.

If the unit takes damage, it is then applied to miniatures.

Eligibility for a miniature to receive damage from a melee attack is based on whether or not a unit is in base-to-base and thus melee, not the figure in question.

No, I get that.  I am just arguing that the mini out of base contact is ineligible to receive damage in same way that mini out of LOS is ineligible to receive damage.  To receive damage they must meet all conditions, which as I see it, includes being in base contact with a member of the attacking unit.  It is definitely something I will discuss with anyone I am playing prior to the start of the game until FFG clears it up.  I am not so married to the idea that I would argue about it at a table.  It just seemed clear to me in the reading that for bikes alone the one not in contact can't be hurt.  It obviously is not as clear as I thought it was.

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4 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:


In fact, it explicitly and specifically does mean precisely that.

RRG, Page 32, Melee, first sentence

"When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee"
 

And, conversely, when no minis from the units are in base contact they are no longer in melee. (Which makes Luke ineligible for moving to the next mini automatically after the attack is done).

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4 minutes ago, Derrault said:

And, conversely, when no minis from the units are in base contact they are no longer in melee. (Which makes Luke ineligible for moving to the next mini automatically after the attack is done).



Wounds would still be assigned to the second miniature as part of the attack resolution.

With literally any unit that had multiple figures, you would be engaged with both speeder miniatures at once, so that argument can only apply to solo figures, and also has no impact on attack resolution once its begun.

EDIT: Apologies, I got misdirected in my argument.

Luke can still shoot the guy. He has a pistol.

Edited by Tvayumat

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Just now, xbeaker said:

No, I get that.  I am just arguing that the mini out of base contact is ineligible to receive damage in same way that mini out of LOS is ineligible to receive damage.

Ok, good we’re making progress ?.

So, the difference here is that LOS is one of the requirements in ranged attacks. It explicitly tells us we cannot assign wounds to a mini without LOS. Once you determine range and LOS, you’ve met the requirements.

In a melee attack, melee is the requirement. And we determine melee at the unit level, not the mini level. Yes, somewhere a couple minis need to be touching each other, but once we have that somewhere we then have melee everywhere. Once you have melee (not necessarily base contact) you’ve met the requirements.

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Just now, Tvayumat said:

I sidetracked away from the original topic, being whether or not the SECOND attack from SoS would trigger after one mini was destroyed.

The answer is still yes, because Luke has a ranged attack option.

Haha, we have like 3 different topics going now...

1. Does Luke get a second attack? Yes, at least a ranged attack. Possible melee attack pending 2nd topic.

2. Does Luke get to automatically move into base contact with the other mini? Waiting for email due to potentially conflicting passages.

3. Can wounds be applied to non-base-contact minis? Yes.

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Just now, Derrault said:

And, conversely, when no minis from the units are in base contact they are no longer in melee. (Which makes Luke ineligible for moving to the next mini automatically after the attack is done).

If the unit is in melee and the bike that is not in contact is still in that melee, then I would agree that Luke would be moved to base contact with the second bike if the first is destroyed.  Based on the example "A unit of stormtroopers engaged with a unit of Rebel troopers performs a melee attack and one Rebel trooper mini is defeated. After the attack, one stormtrooper mini is no longer in base contact with an enemy mini. Because the stormtrooper unit is still in a melee, the stormtrooper mini must be moved into base contact with an enemy mini that is in the same melee as the stormtrooper unit."

If the second speeder bike is eligible to take damage, then it must still be part of the melee, and therefor Luke should me moved to reflect that.  Otherwise it seems like you are saying the second bike is both in melee (can take damage) and out of melee (attacking unit is no longer in melee if the 2nd bike is the only mini left) at the same time.  Either both bikes are eligible for damage or not.  

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5 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Haha, we have like 3 different topics going now...

1. Does Luke get a second attack? Yes, at least a ranged attack. Possible melee attack pending 2nd topic.

2. Does Luke get to automatically move into base contact with the other mini? Waiting for email due to potentially conflicting passages.

3. Can wounds be applied to non-base-contact minis? Yes.

Seems accurate.

 

 

5 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

If the unit is in melee and the bike that is not in contact is still in that melee, then I would agree that Luke would be moved to base contact with the second bike if the first is destroyed.  Based on the example "A unit of stormtroopers engaged with a unit of Rebel troopers performs a melee attack and one Rebel trooper mini is defeated. After the attack, one stormtrooper mini is no longer in base contact with an enemy mini. Because the stormtrooper unit is still in a melee, the stormtrooper mini must be moved into base contact with an enemy mini that is in the same melee as the stormtrooper unit."

If the second speeder bike is eligible to take damage, then it must still be part of the melee, and therefor Luke should me moved to reflect that.  Otherwise it seems like you are saying the second bike is both in melee (can take damage) and out of melee (attacking unit is no longer in melee if the 2nd bike is the only mini left) at the same time.  Either both bikes are eligible for damage or not.  


Not quite.

The unit must be in melee for the melee attack to happen at all. During this attack resolution, both bikes would be eligible to receive damage.

Once damage is assigned, assuming Luke were in contact with the non-leader model only, it would be possible to resolve the attack in such a way that the units are no longer in melee. RAW, he would not then move to the second bike because he is only one model and he is no longer in melee. RAI is less clear. It's possible that he would be intended to then move on to the next bike, it's possible he wouldn't.

The stormtrooper unit in the example is composed of multiple miniatures, some of which are still in melee upon attack resolution, causing the rest to move into contact.

Luke is one model. When he is no longer in base-to-base, he is out of melee. There is no second miniature to keep him in melee.

I await the rules email reply on this one curiously.

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9 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Ok, good we’re making progress ?.

So, the difference here is that LOS is one of the requirements in ranged attacks. It explicitly tells us we cannot assign wounds to a mini without LOS. Once you determine range and LOS, you’ve met the requirements.

This was my whole point the whole time.  It of course needs to be clarified by FFG.  As I read it base contact, like determination of LOS, is part of the determination for attack.  So in my view by not moving the miniature into base contact it was clear* indication that that unit is ineligible as a target.  Unfortunately while they explicitly say that a mini that does not have room to be moved to base contact can still contribute to the attack, they never specify if a mini out of base contact is/isn't eligible for damage. 

*obviously NOT clear at all :)

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15 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

This was my whole point the whole time.  It of course needs to be clarified by FFG.  As I read it base contact, like determination of LOS, is part of the determination for attack.

But base-contact is NOT a determination. Can you cite the passage you think says this?

15 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

they never specify if a mini out of base contact is/isn't eligible for damage

They actually don’t need to. Or, more accurately, the fact that they don’t specify means that minis out of base contact can suffer wounds. The logic is this:

Declaring a melee attack requires you to be in melee with an enemy unit.

Melee is determined at the unit level, not the mini level.

An attack (ranged or melee) deals wounds to a unit.

The defender decides how to assign the wounds his unit is suffering to individual minis within that unit.

There is nothing that says minis out of base contact cannot suffer wounds during an attack. (Contrast this with the line that says minis out of LOS cannot suffer wounds.)

 

I think this is a classic example of “do what the rules say, and don’t do what they don’t say”.

Edited by nashjaee

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