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Crawfskeezen

Second Attacks; Son of Skywalker

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A situation arose in my past match where my opponent and I were unsure of how the rules broke down pertaining to said situation.

My opponent - using Luke Skywalker - charged a unit of my 74-Z Speeder Bikes. It was on his second movement so he used his "Charge" ability to then attack the bikes. My unit ended up suffering 3 wounds, killing one bike. That bike was then removed from the play area thus taking Luke out of base to base contact with the "unit"; the leader remained but some centimetres away from Luke.

Now, my opponent had that turn played the "Son Of Skywalker" command card, allowing him to make a second attack. I allowed him to continue attacking the unit (because I had wiped a good chunk of his army off the table and there was little foreseeable way he was going to pull it out of the fire) even though he was no longer in base contact with the unit. As vehicles can not be "engaged" he was not engaged with the unit either. 

That said, in a more important situation, should he still be allowed to use Luke's second melee attack? I concede that he very well could have just shot the other bike, but should he be able to keep swinging with Daddy's Blue Stick?

Edited by Crawfskeezen

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Step 3 of Melee (P32): "Opponent Moves Minis: Maintaining cohesion, the player’s opponent moves any of their own minis that belong to the unit that is now in a melee (that are not already in base contact with an enemy mini) into base contact with minis from the unit that started the melee."

The rules just say unit, so the unit of bikes when attacked should have moved into base contact with Luke. The surviving bikes being in Melee but not engaged could have flown off in a subsequent activation.

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10 minutes ago, Amanal said:

Step 3 of Melee (P32): "Opponent Moves Minis: Maintaining cohesion, the player’s opponent moves any of their own minis that belong to the unit that is now in a melee (that are not already in base contact with an enemy mini) into base contact with minis from the unit that started the melee."

The rules just say unit, so the unit of bikes when attacked should have moved into base contact with Luke. The surviving bikes being in Melee but not engaged could have flown off in a subsequent activation.

You don’t move into melee if you are not equipped with a melee weapon.

which bikes are not...

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I was looking at the partial page and missed the first bullet. Thanks for the catch.

However, as Luke does have a Melee Weapon if he defeated the first bike wouldn't the bullet that says "Whenever there are minis that are not in base contact with an enemy mini but those minis have a melee weapon and the unit to which they belong is in a melee, those minis must be placed in base contact with an enemy mini in the same melee as their unit if possible. This can happen when minis in a melee suffer wounds and are defeated, creating space for other minis that were not previously in base contact to be place in base contact. If both players own minis that are......" apply and Luke moves into the second bike?

Edited by Amanal

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“If the opponent’s unit does not have a melee weapon, the opponent does not move their minis into base contact with the unit that started the melee.”

speeder bikes lack melee, they don’t get moved.

If you want to ensure that a enemy unit of speeder bikes gets both swings, always go into base contact with the leader because other mini suffers wounds first. 

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14 minutes ago, Derrault said:

“If the opponent’s unit does not have a melee weapon, the opponent does not move their minis into base contact with the unit that started the melee.”

speeder bikes lack melee, they don’t get moved.

If you want to ensure that a enemy unit of speeder bikes gets both swings, always go into base contact with the leader because other mini suffers wounds first. 

Yes, but as stated above Luke does have a melee weapon and is in a melee with the speeders. When one of the speeders is removed, he must be moved into base contact with the other speeder in the unit.

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1 minute ago, nashjaee said:

Yes, but as stated above Luke does have a melee weapon and is in a melee with the speeders. When one of the speeders is removed, he must be moved into base contact with the other speeder in the unit.

Ninja!! The 7th Bullet Point is what we are referencing, rather than the first.

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16 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Yes, but as stated above Luke does have a melee weapon and is in a melee with the speeders. When one of the speeders is removed, he must be moved into base contact with the other speeder in the unit.

Technically Luke was only in melee with the now dead speeder. Once it does get removed, his unit isn’t in melee with anyone. 

The example given on stormtroopers vs rebel troopers even gives reference to this, because there is still a melee going (from multiple minis in the same unit) the orphan mini has to move into base contact. If (somehow) all the minis in base contact were eliminated, but there was still one leftover, it would actually end the melee. That seems incredibly unlikely for troopers, but quite possible for vehicles. 

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3 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Technically Luke was only in melee with the now dead speeder. Once it does get removed, his unit isn’t in melee with anyone. 

The example given on stormtroopers vs rebel troopers even gives reference to this, because there is still a melee going (from multiple minis in the same unit) the orphan mini has to move into base contact. If (somehow) all the minis in base contact were eliminated, but there was still one leftover, it would actually end the melee. That seems incredibly unlikely for troopers, but quite possible for vehicles. 

Minis are not in melee with each other. Units are.

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2 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Minis are not in melee with each other. Units are.

And being in a melee requires at least one mini from each unit to be in base contact with the other. Once a situation arises where zero minis are in base contact, melee no longer exists as a state of existence.

While there is a rule to circumvent this from happening at low levels of attrition, it breaks down under certain circumstances. For example, when there is only one mini in one of the units. 

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9 minutes ago, Derrault said:

And being in a melee requires at least one mini from each unit to be in base contact with the other. Once a situation arises where zero minis are in base contact, melee no longer exists as a state of existence.

While there is a rule to circumvent this from happening at low levels of attrition, it breaks down under certain circumstances. For example, when there is only one mini in one of the units. 

Please cite a rule. @Amanal already did and it shows that when a mini that is part of a melee and has a melee weapon (like Luke) is not in base contact, it is moved. It’s the last bullet point of the Melee section on page 32.

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6 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Please cite a rule. @Amanal already did and it shows that when a mini that is part of a melee and has a melee weapon (like Luke) is not in base contact, it is moved. It’s the last bullet point of the Melee section on page 32.

 ADVANCED MELEE RULES
  A unit of stormtroopers engaged with a unit of Rebel troopers performs a melee attack and one Rebel trooper mini is defeated. After the attack, one stormtrooper mini is no longer in base contact with an enemy mini. Because the stormtrooper unit is still in a melee, the stormtrooper mini must be moved into base contact with an enemy mini that is in the same melee as the
stormtrooper unit.

Also page 32.

If Luke kills a speeder, and he’s no longer in base contact with another mini in the unit he is, by definition, no longer in melee with another unit. The same scenario would arise if he was utterly surrounded by an enemy unit where one or more minis couldn’t make base contact and he killed (in one attack) all the ones in base contact. They’d be out of melee and no longer required to move into base contact. 

Edited by Derrault

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

Technically Luke was only in melee with the now dead speeder. Once it does get removed, his unit isn’t in melee with anyone.

P32: "Melee represents close combat between opposing units. When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee."

No he was in melee with the unit of bikes.

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1 hour ago, Derrault said:

And being in a melee requires at least one mini from each unit to be in base contact with the other.

So this suggests that if Luke did 5 damage only 3 would be applied as after that he is no longer in melee and could no longer do melee damage.

Melee starts when we have base contact and a unit performs a melee action, however, I would suggest that until all the steps and all the bullet points that refer to melee are resolved that melee still exists. Only once you have done all that can you consider melee done with.

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51 minutes ago, Derrault said:

 ADVANCED MELEE RULES
  A unit of stormtroopers engaged with a unit of Rebel troopers performs a melee attack and one Rebel trooper mini is defeated. After the attack, one stormtrooper mini is no longer in base contact with an enemy mini. Because the stormtrooper unit is still in a melee, the stormtrooper mini must be moved into base contact with an enemy mini that is in the same melee as the
stormtrooper unit.

Also page 32.

If Luke kills a speeder, and he’s no longer in base contact with another mini in the unit he is, by definition, no longer in melee with another unit. The same scenario would arise if he was utterly surrounded by an enemy unit where one or more minis couldn’t make base contact and he killed (in one attack) all the ones in base contact. They’d be out of melee and no longer required to move into base contact. 

Ah Ok, so now the question is “when does a melee officially end?” Immediately when minis are no longer in base contact? Or after the attack is complete? This may be worth clarification.

On the one hand we have (page 32):

Quote

When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee. 

And on the other (page 14):

Quote

During a melee attack, the attacker and defender are in a melee

Let’s see what Alex says :)

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2 hours ago, nashjaee said:

Ah Ok, so now the question is “when does a melee officially end?” Immediately when minis are no longer in base contact? Or after the attack is complete? This may be worth clarification.

On the one hand we have (page 32):

And on the other (page 14):

Let’s see what Alex says :)

According to page 14, an attack is over when all wounds have been assigned (assuming no additional defenders).

Im used to a game where the attack sequence is largely inviolable, meaning that you don’t do things not held within the sequence.

I’d suggest that since wound checking is not within the attack sequence, it may be checked immediately after the attack sequence occurs, meaning you don’t remove the mini until the attack is over. 

I recognize legion doesn’t have anything specifically saying this, but the fact that one thing is in a step by step guide and another isn’t is suggestive to me

Edited by Thoras

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2 hours ago, Amanal said:

So this suggests that if Luke did 5 damage only 3 would be applied as after that he is no longer in melee and could no longer do melee damage.

Melee starts when we have base contact and a unit performs a melee action, however, I would suggest that until all the steps and all the bullet points that refer to melee are resolved that melee still exists. Only once you have done all that can you consider melee done with.

There is no limitation I can see on damage being applied. Melee rules etc are how you initiate the attack, but I don’t think matter once you are in the attack sequence and past those initial steps.

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2 hours ago, Thoras said:

According to page 14, an attack is over when all wounds have been assigned (assuming no additional defenders).

Im used to a game where the attack sequence is largely inviolable, meaning that you don’t do things not held within the sequence.

I’d suggest that since wound checking is not within the attack sequence, it may be checked immediately after the attack sequence occurs, meaning you don’t remove the mini until the attack is over. 

I recognize legion doesn’t have anything specifically saying this, but the fact that one thing is in a step by step guide and another isn’t is suggestive to me

I think wounds are actually within the attack sequence. They are assigned under step 9, and a step 10 exists (whether or not there are other defenders) so we are well within the structure of an attack when we reach a no-base-contact situation. Even if we ignore step 10, we have to assign wounds before closing out 9 and, by extension, the attack. So I think it will matter whether page 32 or 14 takes precedence here.

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27 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

I think wounds are actually within the attack sequence. They are assigned under step 9, and a step 10 exists (whether or not there are other defenders) so we are well within the structure of an attack when we reach a no-base-contact situation. Even if we ignore step 10, we have to assign wounds before closing out 9 and, by extension, the attack. So I think it will matter whether page 32 or 14 takes precedence here.

I agree assigning the wounds is within the attack sequence.

My point would be that you don’t check whether those wounds match a mini’s health threshold and thus don’t see if it should be removed until the attack sequence is over, since that aspect of wounds isn’t contained within the attack sequence itself.

So the wounds are assigned during the attack sequence, but perhaps you don’t check those wounds vs the health until the attack is finished.

Edited by Thoras

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How does this work with the rules that vehicles are never engaged?

Like, trooper units are engaged, so as they lose minis, they stay in melee, move to base contact, etc. But vehicles are never engaged, so not sure how that works.

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12 minutes ago, Thoras said:

I agree assigning the wounds is within the attack sequence.

My point would be that you don’t check whether those wounds match a mini’s health threshold and thus don’t see if it should be removed until the attack sequence is over, since that aspect of wounds isn’t contained within the attack sequence itself.

So the wounds are assigned during the attack sequence, but perhaps you don’t check those wounds vs the health until the attack is finished.

For that, we would check the Wounds entry on page 47. It tells us to add wound tokens and/or remove minis at the time that wounds are assigned. So, during step 9 of the attack.

 

12 minutes ago, HanScottFirst said:

How does this work with the rules that vehicles are never engaged?

Engagement doesn’t matter in this case. All of the rules people have cited thus far about moving minis around refer only to melee, not to engagement. So if a multi-mini vehicle unit with a melee weapon is ever released, it would follow the same rules about moving its minis around when one dude moves into base-contact with one of them.

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14 hours ago, Amanal said:

So this suggests that if Luke did 5 damage only 3 would be applied as after that he is no longer in melee and could no longer do melee damage.

I would agree with this.  Much like when you are shooting as a squad in which some units are out of line of sight.. If there are 3 units visible, and 3 that are out of LOS to all members of the attacking squad, and you do 5 damage, you can only apply 3 of it.  If one of the speeder bikes is out of range of melee to Luke, he can't damage it.  

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2 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

I would agree with this.  Much like when you are shooting as a squad in which some units are out of line of sight.. If there are 3 units visible, and 3 that are out of LOS to all members of the attacking squad, and you do 5 damage, you can only apply 3 of it.  If one of the speeder bikes is out of range of melee to Luke, he can't damage it.  

But there is precedence for wounds to be dealt to enemy models that are out of range, as long as there was s model in range when the dice were rolled...

The exception is out of LOS, not out of range.

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13 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

But there is precedence for wounds to be dealt to enemy models that are out of range, as long as there was s model in range when the dice were rolled...

The exception is out of LOS, not out of range.

But you must be in base contact with a unit to damage it with melee.  The out of range precedent doesn't count as when the attack is initiated you determine the eligible targets.  Units at a different range are eligible as long as the closest mini is in range.  But minis out of LOS are ineligible.  The rules state that you are only in melee combat if you are in base contact "When two miniatures from opposing players’ units are in base contact, those units are in a melee." As the second speeder is not in melee, so it is not an eligible target.  Even Luke can't hit a guy so hard that his partner feels it, unless he can position himself such that he is in base contact with both bikes at the same time of course.  

Edited by xbeaker

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