Former Champion and Shadow's Blessing

[FATMOUSE 0]

What happens if I play Shadow's Blessing on Former Champion if he has no power on him?  What if he has one power on him?  It seems like there is an infinite loop.  Gain a power icon from Shadow Blessing, lose a power icon from icon from Shadow Blessing, gain a power icon from Shadow Blessing....Does Former Champion get a power icon or not?

[ktom 598]

There are a few other instances of things like this happening. Essentially what you have here is the STR check dependent upon the icon check, and vice versa. The calculation of 1 directly affects the calculation of the other.

The way this is resolved is that Former Champion's "while character has 3 STR or less, it gains a power icon" and Shadow's Blessing's "while character has a power icon, it gets +2 STR" effectively cancel each other out until the +2 STR from Shadow's Blessing no longer takes the character's STR above 3. Until that point, the two effects do create the "infinite loop" you describe that essentially holds the character's power icon status in stasis until the loop is broken - or a power icon is gained from another source.

[FATMOUSE 0]

It's actually pretty interesting how it resolves; however, I just want to clarify that it resolves such that Former Champion stays at 5 str and still has no power icon, right?

[ktom 598]

FATMOUSE said:

It's actually pretty interesting how it resolves; however, I just want to clarify that it resolves such that Former Champion stays at 5 str and still has no power icon, right?

Correct - when he has no power on him - but follow it all the way through:

Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 0 power = 5STR, no power icon.
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 1 power = 4STR, no power icon.
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 2 power = 3STR, no power icon (but Deadly).
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 3 power = 2 STR, no power icon (but Deadly).
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 4 power = 3 STR, power icon (and Deadly).

See what I'm getting at here? Even at STR 2 or 3, the two effects (character and attachment) continue to cancel each other out. When the STR is 4 or 5, the infinite loop starts with the "-2 STR for no power icon" part of the attachment giving the character a power icon. When the STR is 2 or 3, the infinite loop starts with the "+2 STR for a power icon" part of the attachment shutting off the effect that gives the power icon.

[FATMOUSE 0]

 Ok, that's much clearer now.  Thanks ktom.

[ktom 598]

ktom said:

Correct - when he has no power on him - but follow it all the way through:

Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 0 power = 5STR, no power icon.
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 1 power = 4STR, no power icon.
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 2 power = 3STR, no power icon (but Deadly).
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 3 power = 2 STR, no power icon (but Deadly).
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 4 power = 3 STR, power icon (and Deadly).

Let's clean up the math on this:

Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 0 power = 5STR, no power icon.
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 1 power = 3STR, no power icon (but with Deadly).
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 2 power = 3STR, a power icon (and with Deadly).
Former Champion + Shadow's Blessing + 3 power = 1STR, power icon, intrigue icon, Stealth and Deadly.

[Rogue30 60]

Just to be sure: isn't  "Infinite Loops" FAQ rule a proper solution here? I mean, I resolve loop x times and champion gets power icon.

[ktom 598]

No. Infinite loops are not the same thing. In an infinite loop, resolving effect #1 allows you to satisfy the conditions of effect #2, then resolving effect #2 allows you to satisfy the conditions of effect #1. For example, say you have a location that says "kneel this location to choose and stand a character; that character gets +2 STR." Then you decide to use it on a character that says "kneel this character to stand a location." By using the location on the character, then the character on the location, you can effectively make the character's STR infinite.

The point is that an infinite loop involves at least two separate effects that each resolve.

The Former Champion/Shadow's Blessing thing is different. It is two lasting effects that are supposed to be applied to the same character at the same time, but CAN'T actually be applied at the same time because the result of 1 determines the play restrictions of the other, and vice versa. They are two lasting effects that cannot be added together and the result applied - as stated in the rules. So they effectively cancel each other out.

Using the term "infinite loop" earlier was supposed to be illustrative. I forgot that the term actually means something in the game.

[Rogue30 60]

ktom said:

Using the term "infinite loop" earlier was supposed to be illustrative. I forgot that the term actually means something in the game.

Ok, thanks for explaining. BTW Was there many such loops in CCG era?