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clanofwolves

What are the designers really doing?

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I'm looking at my X-Wings becoming cheaper and so much better at repositioning, which, on the surface, is emotionally great!

But after I have enjoyed an original (pre-Wave IV style game), I came to understand that I really don't want better repositioning T-65s. I won, but in a real way, lost flying them. I want better T-65s that are T-65 with all their original designs powers and limitations in tact. Like free Proton Torpedo Title? Are the designers reacting to imbalance by simply throwing all ships the same game abilities? If so, doesn't this make the abilities of original ships that relied on being super agile/fragile repositioning receive a game-play indirect nerf?

Is the game loosing its unique parts, its unique factions?

Did the game's core uniqueness start to slipping with the design decision to make turrets the best game component?

Now fixes are simply washing away the under the turret abilities?

I fear the designers are destroying the games core more and more with each design "fix" release.

It felt good, but now it feels bad...sad panda.

 

........now where's my tea?

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...?

there's nothing the fixed X-wing does that is particularly "Special" or game bending even post fix. The only capability it gets now that ships normally can't do is the 3-turn --> 3-troll from the attack position servos. Everything else is already accounted for (boost, rolls, green banks, cheaper point cost etc.). It still relies on FAA to get any outstanding maneuverability, and even then you're not going to be out-dancing a Striker or a sensor Silencer

the only real problem with the X-wing fix is that there's SO MUCH TEXT across all those cards

and no, anything super agile/repositioning focused bit the curb and got a fat han dropped on them the moment the PWT was conceived. Now the FAA X can be considered agile/repositioning focused, and you might actually have enough of them to outdice a super turret. So, if anything, it's a potential return to form and the exact opposite of what you fear.

I personally doubt anything can reliably stand up to a super turret, but it's far more likely now that it used to be

EDIT: boiled down to the most practical terms possible, it is highly unlikely you'll use closed Servos for anything other than initial approach and running away

in most cases, you're looking at cheaper X-wings that can barrel-roll and 3-troll. So, better t-70s that can roll instead of boost but which cannot be jess or poe.

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I thought the best fix for the T-65 and many other ships involves doing a point cost overhaul. It could be posted as the “Tournament” point costs on the FFG site. 

One fix doc that can be periodically revised. No new cards.  And my builder app is the custodian of the changes, not my working memory. 

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@clanofwolves, I'm getting dangerously close to responding to your posts with Gene Wilder memes. 

It's not enough that FFG are going back to fix underperforming wave one ships?  They need to fix them in a way that's personally acceptable to individual forum users as well?  That way lies madness, my friend.

@ficklegreendice the card text isn't so bad.  You're looking at Integrated (which is very simple and we all know what it does), Renegade (points decrease and extra mod, again, really simple) and Servos (which again, is pretty straightforward).  OK, three upgrade cards to cause the desired effect, but on release they'll be everywhere, and it's not difficult to follow the interactions.

I played FAA/Integrated against opponents with a language barrier at the weekend.  Simply showing the card was usually enough to get an "OK, no problem". It's not exactly rocket science.

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I agree the fix is simple when you boil it down

But that is a LOT of text to blow through for what is essentially "-2/3 points, add broll and speed 3 t-rolls"

It's hardly the stuff of nightmares to be sure, and I'm glad the fix finally happened, but it still merits a small criticism

Though really the bigger deal is the box has no integrated. Maybe those thrusters things will sweeten the deal or complicate the problem

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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The OP does bring up a point that the X-Wing fix is basically more of the same.  Points decrease + increased customize ability.  

Many were hoping that the fix would be something to make the X Wing unique, and give it a shot at the top tables.  Unfortunately I think the current fix was not enough to make it competitive, its still overpriced for what it does in this era of card combo wing.  
Hopefully a TLT nerf comes along soon to bring back the arc based combat that the OP desires.

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They've given the ship more actions but that is not more action efficiency except in the case of the one previewed pilot. And I'm not sure how efficient getting a stress and evade at the cost of an attack die is. Sperado is another arc-dodger (and a weaker Soontir at that) in a TLT and Bombs world.  

None of the changes give more dice modification. 

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I don't understand what is the real problem here. T-65 needs to have 4 red dices? Or 3 green dices like Tie Interceptor or Tie Fighters? They can't have Autothrusters? They can't open and close wings? They can't have lower cost? What is really the big deal here? To me, the T-65 looks way more thematic now. Oh, they lost torpedoes... besides games... did you ever saw any fighter destroying another fighter with torpedoes in a dogfight? If it was missiles, I would agree with you. But torpedoes are used to destroy bigger ships, not another dogfighter. Torpedoes are there to destroy Corvettes, Calamaris, Star Destroyers, heck... Death Star. About turrets and TLT, I can sort of agree with you, but good luck surviving against 5 T-65. A regen T-65 isn't that easy for a TLT ship to beat down neither.

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Well, as matter of fact, imperials play nowadays almost like rebels, without regen.

Aside from the occasional Striker filler, or Omega Troller, I no longer see anything under 5 hull flown. Maybe the sporadic Inquisitor (which is essentially an imperial A-wing, and only because it has 3 attack dice)... And some snowflake builds here and there.

All I see are Decimators, TIE /SFs, Defenders, and some lonely Vaders... And the few remaining Lambdas will disappear as soon as the Reaper arrives. 

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59 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:



EDIT: boiled down to the most practical terms possible, it is highly unlikely you'll use closed Servos for anything other than initial approach and running away

Which is fine since in the movies, T65s lock their s-foils for combat situations :)

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23 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Though really the bigger deal is the box has no integrated. Maybe those thrusters things will sweeten the deal or complicate the problem

...and only one Flight Assist Astromech, which is going to be a go-to choice for most T-65 pilots.

Pretty sure the Thrust- card will be for the U-Wing though, to give it some extra options.

13 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

Many were hoping that the fix would be something to make the X Wing unique, and give it a shot at the top tables.

They HAVE made the X-Wing unique, in that they've given it the ability to Barrel Roll at a high attack value OR Boost at a lower attack value, depending on the situation.  It can now knife fight or hit and run as appropriate.  The -2/-3 with Elite Talent reduction combined with the extra maneuverability should well be enough to see it's presence increase competitively.  5 X-Wing lists are probably going to be the new benchmark for swarm builds.

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16 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:



Many were hoping that the fix would be something to make the X Wing unique,..

That's the problem. How do you make a ship unique? Dials? Actions? There's always going to be some ship/pilot combos that standout. Not every ship is going to be a top tier player. Whether that's due to bad overall performance or lack of a "good pilot" doesn't matter. It's extremely difficult to make ships unique and equality competitive.

As for the TLT. It's not the problem. If it were you'd still see Y-Wing with TLT x 4 everywhere. It's a problem on two builds. Miranda and the Ghost/Phantom. Miranda could be handled by making her regen require primary weapon only.

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I am torn on this. I LOVE the fixes because it makes it possible to run five decently tough generics, makes it possible to run the coolest pilots in the universe and in general makes the most iconic ship in x-wing playable. Together with the FAA, I think it is a job well done.

But jeez, is point reduction and reposition really the most creative thing they could come up with...? I would have loved for the fix to have been just a Little bit more creative.   

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I "almost" feel bad about the swarm of 7~8 Tie Fighters... now they gotta deal with this:

Cavern Angels Zealot [18]
X-Wing [19] - Refit [-2] - Flight Assist Astromech [1] - S-Foils [0] - Integrated Astromech [0]

Cavern Angels Zealot [18]
X-Wing [19] - Refit [-2] - Flight Assist Astromech [1] - S-Foils [0] - Integrated Astromech [0]

Cavern Angels Zealot [18]
X-Wing [19] - Refit [-2] - Flight Assist Astromech [1] - S-Foils [0] - Integrated Astromech [0]

Cavern Angels Zealot [18]
X-Wing [19] - Refit [-2] - Flight Assist Astromech [1] - S-Foils [0] - Integrated Astromech [0]

Wedge Antilles [28]
X-Wing [29] - Refit [-2] - Veteran Instincts [0] - Flight Assist Astromech [1] - S-Foils [0] - Integrated Astromech [0]

Total: 100 Points

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1 hour ago, AngryAlbatross said:

The OP does bring up a point that the X-Wing fix is basically more of the same.  Points decrease + increased customize ability.  

Many were hoping that the fix would be something to make the X Wing unique, and give it a shot at the top tables.  Unfortunately I think the current fix was not enough to make it competitive, its still overpriced for what it does in this era of card combo wing.  
Hopefully a TLT nerf comes along soon to bring back the arc based combat that the OP desires.

Though it could also be said that integrated astro already gave a pretty unique feature.  The point decrease has been a long standing issue as they are a bit overcosted.  I would have liked to see a title as with the A-wing but this works .  Rebellion Ace that adds an EPT for example would have been amazing.

Edited by Jetfire

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Yea, when this game started it was pretty clear that repositioning and even EPTs were intended to be rare and based on theme.  For instance, there were no EPTs at all on Y-Wings or Lambdas, and very few generics had access to EPTs outside of the TIE Fighter, Interceptor, and A-Wing.  As many ships lacked innate repositioning as had it (e.g. YT-1300, Firespray, Lambda, X-Wing, Y-Wing, HWK, Z-95, etc.).

Now, for the most part, EPTs and repositioning are pretty ubiquitous regardless of the craft's size or maneuverability in the fluff, with even ships like Wookie Gunships and Scurrgs having access to generics with EPTs and with big hulking ships like the Jumpmaster and Scurrg having innate repositioning.  Now, 14 Waves later, even the eponymous X-Wing, the flagship of the jouster archetype, has been granted access to both BR and Boost directly via S-Foils, and indirectly with FAA. 


I agree that this does dilute the thematic feel of the ship types, and it would have been nice if jousters could have found a way to exist without needing as much repositioning access as the arc-dodge archetype.  X-Wing hasn't really fixed jousters, it's just turned most would-be jouster-types into mini arc-dodge types.

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27 minutes ago, Seabook said:

I don't understand what is the real problem here. T-65 needs to have 4 red dices? Or 3 green dices like Tie Interceptor or Tie Fighters? They can't have Autothrusters? They can't open and close wings? They can't have lower cost? What is really the big deal here? To me, the T-65 looks way more thematic now. Oh, they lost torpedoes... besides games... did you ever saw any fighter destroying another fighter with torpedoes in a dogfight? If it was missiles, I would agree with you. But torpedoes are used to destroy bigger ships, not another dogfighter. Torpedoes are there to destroy Corvettes, Calamaris, Star Destroyers, heck... Death Star. About turrets and TLT, I can sort of agree with you, but good luck surviving against 5 T-65. A regen T-65 isn't that easy for a TLT ship to beat down neither.

I'm okay with the changes. I think These changes do make the T-65 better. And the five x-wings list (quantity is a quality all its own) looks like fun.

Needing to buy two more U-wings and two more Sheatipede shuttles and another T-70 to field it doesn't. 

As to the x-wing being a jouster something that turned the K-turn white would have been nice. 

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FAA isn't really good for arc dodging though, unless you're running away (re arc pointed away from the enemy)

It's actually a huge jouster buff because it lets you orientate your firing arc and tailor a multitude of approaches that would otherwise have you facing entirely the wrong way 

For my money, they definitely did the right thing in this regard. 

And adding broll didn't make the Bwing an arcdodger, so I doubt the Xwing will be much better off :P

(And if the x boosts like soontir would, it loses a red die...making it a bad arcdodger)

Idk, I think the theme is VERY much there. The x is still a jouster to the core, it simply is no longer a stump of a ship that is barely more manueverable than a B

Edited by ficklegreendice

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The X-Wing locks its S-foils in attack formation and you're _complaining_?! 

The X-Wing now gets 2 mods and a droid slot. Show me another ships that does that. 

The X-Wing can _eject the droid_ for a bit of extra survivability. That's fluffy AF. How is this something we're complaining about?!

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2 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

But after I have enjoyed an original (pre-Wave IV style game), I came to understand that I really don't want better repositioning T-65s.

I would argue that most people who don't understand his post haven't been playing the game since waves 1-4.  There was a time when repositioning (beyond a Tie Fighter Barrel Roll) was rare.  If you guessed wrong when picking the dial, you just didn't get a shot that round.  Understanding where your opponent was going to go was more important because you couldn't just "fix it" after the fact.  

I'm afraid that game is gone.  That ship has sailed.  The genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back....unless you play with just a few friends and limit your list building.  Repositioning and turrets are here and not going anywhere.  Oh, not just turrets, but improved firing arcs like the Gunship.   

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