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Killerardvark

Rulings for worlds

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1 hour ago, jokerkd said:

Holy ****

 

You insist on pertinent examples and then claim Dash's barrel rolls are an argument?

Dash ignores obstacles. If a rock stopped you from barrel rolling, you wouldn't be ignoring it. 

If nym sets off a bomb but isnt affected by it, he is still ignoring it

Not sure what are you telling me here.

The Dash reference was provocative of course, but at least it's xwing related and not some random stuff out of context like kids.

It's also way more relevant than you are giving credit it to: both have the same wording, but in Dash's case no one is really questioning his ability to completly ignore obstacles in activation phase like they are not even there.

Instead with Nym we have this "yeah but does the bomb ignore Nym?" which I still don't get what it's even supposed to mean in game terms... We never wondered if obstacles were ignoring Dash...

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

Are the bombs ignoring Nym?  That's a really facetious argument.

The level of sophism we are getting at in this game is starting to be mind blowing

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8 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Not sure what are you telling me here.

The Dash reference was provocative of course, but at least it's xwing related and not some random stuff out of context like kids.

It's also way more relevant than you are giving credit it to: both have the same wording, but in Dash's case no one is really questioning his ability to completly ignore obstacles in activation phase like they are not even there.

Instead with Nym we have this "yeah but does the bomb ignore Nym?" which I still don't get what it's even supposed to mean in game terms... We never wondered if obstacles were ignoring Dash...

The level of sophism we are getting at in this game is starting to be mind blowing

Pretty sure the kids thing was a joke about kids. What you'd call a non-sequitur. It wasn't meant to have a significant bearing on the conversation.

Obstacles don't do anything when you fly over them. They don't move or explode. They just sit there, and the ship that overlaps them takes consequences. Dash can ignore these consequences.

Bombs blow up when you fly over them. They are triggered by a ship overlapping them. Nothing about Nym says that bombs don't explode when he flies over them; he simply ignores the consequences of that explosion, the same way Dash ignores the consequences of flying over obstacles.

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In fact I find Nym ruling against both RAW and RAI the same time which is quite an accomplishment :)

Anyway I think it's better to have "imperfect" ruling than not having one allowing ppl to play differently on different tables so I thank to the judges for doing their work even I disagree somethimes. 

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1 minute ago, nexttwelveexits said:

Nothing about Nym says that bombs don't explode when he flies over them; he simply ignores the consequences of that explosion, the same way Dash ignores the consequences of flying over obstacles.

"he simple ignores the consequences of explosion" is in my opinion changing the rule. If it would be intended it would be clearly stated on the card "Ignores explosions" or "Is immune to bombs" which is easy to phrase avoiding any disputes, but fully "ignore bombs" is simple more than that. Scum Nym was designed as  "he who walks among the mines" or "minefield walker" as a unique mechanic, but it's completely taken away from him with this ruling.

Just my 3 cents 

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Sure, you can compare the wording on Dash and Nym pilot cards, but your comparison of bombs and obstacles is way off. 

Bombs do a thing (detonate) when a certain event triggers them. The event is either the end of activation (seismic, proton, ion, thermal) or when a ship base or template overlaps them (cluster, prox, Conner). Why would you decide that Nym stops one of those event triggers, but not the other?

Obstacles never do anything. Obstacles also don't ignore Dash. They just don't do anything about it.

This is why people are insisting that bombs don't ignore Nym. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, nexttwelveexits said:

 

Bombs blow up when you fly over them. They are triggered by a ship overlapping them. Nothing about Nym says that bombs don't explode when he flies over them;.

It actually says Nym ignores bombs. I'm not sure how a ship ignoring those bomb existance could be triggering them

Quote

he simply ignores the consequences of that explosion, the same way Dash ignores the consequences of flying over obstacles.

and that's a different thing from "ignoring bombs" which isn't written on the card.

 

It also opens up the rabbit hole, because what's a consequence and what's not? Especially regarding Dash and barrel rolls, not being able to barrel rolls if the template overlaps an obstacle is a consequence? How?

You are either ignoring (ie that thing isn't there for you) or you aren't. We have a weird case of double thought

Edited by Sunitsa

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1 minute ago, jokerkd said:

I find it utterly bizarre that a clarification from a designer of the game, can be considered "against" the rules as intended

You shouldn't, Frank's rulings (by email and at tourneys) have been contradicted in the FAQ several times.

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11 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

"he simple ignores the consequences of explosion" is in my opinion changing the rule. If it would be intended it would be clearly stated on the card "Ignores explosions" or "Is immune to bombs" which is easy to phrase avoiding any disputes, but fully "ignore bombs" is simple more than that. Scum Nym was designed as  "he who walks among the mines" or "minefield walker" as a unique mechanic, but it's completely taken away from him with this ruling.

Just my 3 cents 

The thing is, the triggering of a bomb exploding is not a property of the ship it's a property of the bomb token.

It's right there on the card:
latest?cb=20130427161810

Nym's not affecting the text on Proximity Mines, which detail when the token detonates.   

Ships aren't looking out for any bomb tokens and telling them to explode if they hit them, which would need to be happening for Nym to be able to ignore a bomb and not tell it to explode.  The bomb token is looking out for any ships that are hitting it and detonating if they do.

The EFFECT of that detonation is described on the rules insert card, and Nym ignores those effects.

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8 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

It actually says Nym ignores bombs. I'm not sure how a ship ignoring those bomb existance could be triggering them

and that's a different thing from "ignoring bombs" which isn't written on the card.

The bomb is triggered by a ship overlapping it. Nym overlaps it and, because it doesn't ignore his presence, it explodes and tells him it that he takes damage. Nym ignores the bomb and does not suffer any damage.

Quote

It also opens up the rabbit hole, because what's a consequence and what's not? Especially regarding Dash and barrel rolls, not being able to barrel rolls if the template overlaps an obstacle is a consequence? How?

The obstacle is triggered by a ship overlapping it. Dash overlaps it and, since the obstacle isn't ignoring him, it tells him he can't barrel roll. Dash ignores the obstacle and barrel rolls anyway, because he's a rebel.

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4 minutes ago, SOTL said:

The thing is, the triggering of a bomb exploding is not a property of the ship it's a property of the bomb token.

It's right there on the card:
latest?cb=20130427161810

Nym's not affecting the text on Proximity Mines, which detail when the token detonates.   

Ships aren't looking out for any bomb tokens and telling them to explode if they hit them, which would need to be happening for Nym to be able to ignore a bomb and not tell it to explode.  The bomb token is looking out for any ships that are hitting it and detonating if they do.

The EFFECT of that detonation is described on the rules insert card, and Nym ignores those effects.

Thank you for bringing actual reasoning with relevant reference to the table.

However, I still don't see that difference between that and this

NyweAGx.jpg

 

they seem to share the same wording, but in the case of Dash no one is really, rightfully, arguing about him completly ignoring (including collateral aspect like being able to barrel roll with template touching an obstacle), while for Nym we got this ruling.

Nym ignores bombs, yet they don't care and trigger anyway.

 

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Posted (edited)

No, they are worded differently.  The ship is doing all the actions in the Asteroid/Debris case.  The ship is looking out for if it crosses something, and if does then it knows it has to roll red dice.  The asteroid is passive in all this.

In the bombs case the bomb is the active party - it's looking for a ship passing by then detonating.  The ship holds no information about what happens if it crosses over a bomb token (and indeed, nothing happens if it crosses over a bomb token that doesn't have rules text saying that it detonates if a ship crosses over it).
 

Edited by SOTL

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Dash ignores Obstacles, the consequence of your manoeuvre template or ship touch an obstacle (rock) is the you lose your action and roll a red dice. But that’s okay, Dash ignores obstacles (So no action loss or red dice)

 

Nym ignores bombs, the consequence of your manoeuvre template touching a bomb (mine) is that it detonates, but that’s okay, Nym ignores bombs (So no detonation) oh wait.....

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Just stirring the pot but how exactly would one ignore an exploding bomb? I mean really what is physically happening?

With Dash I can understand he is just so **** good he can fly inches from a roid and be a piloting badass. How is nym setting a bomb off and o’le a spherical blast radius? 

I’m all for bomb nerfs in any form, hate bombs and feel they have 0 place in this game, but physically there is just no sense to this ruling. Carry on.

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7 hours ago, jokerkd said:

Adding dice with cruise missile ability would happen at 2ii aswell

Would it not be considered dice added by a secondary weapon (2i)?  And if not, it still doesn't really make sense how the CM clause somehow limits other sources of added dice.  Like, if you CM for 4, can you Jan Ors for 5?  The Jan Ors die being added is completely independent of maneuver speed, which CM's maximum refers to. 

The ruling is what it is, but that doesn't mean it particularly makes sense.

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30 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Would it not be considered dice added by a secondary weapon (2i)?  And if not, it still doesn't really make sense how the CM clause somehow limits other sources of added dice.  Like, if you CM for 4, can you Jan Ors for 5?  The Jan Ors die being added is completely independent of maneuver speed, which CM's maximum refers to. 

The ruling is what it is, but that doesn't mean it particularly makes sense.

It is possible to interpret the card as written to imply a hard cap of 4 additional dice regardless of the source of those dice. It's not the most intuitive interpretation, but it is there.

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1 hour ago, LordFajubi said:

Just stirring the pot but how exactly would one ignore an exploding bomb? I mean really what is physically happening?

With Dash I can understand he is just so **** good he can fly inches from a roid and be a piloting badass. How is nym setting a bomb off and o’le a spherical blast radius? 

I’m all for bomb nerfs in any form, hate bombs and feel they have 0 place in this game, but physically there is just no sense to this ruling. Carry on.

He has the prototype version of Deflective Plating, which is obviously way better than the mass production plating in use ~60 years later :rolleyes:

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Thank you for bringing actual reasoning with relevant reference to the table.

However, I still don't see that difference between that and this

[nitrobenz edit: See below]

they seem to share the same wording, but in the case of Dash no one is really, rightfully, arguing about him completly ignoring (including collateral aspect like being able to barrel roll with template touching an obstacle), while for Nym we got this ruling.

Nym ignores bombs, yet they don't care and trigger anyway.

Try the errata'd version (as appears in FAQ 4.4.1 p.2), it supports your argument better:

EEAGhDfnUAcNqC_7f8lCBhaEZHEWAw6mKE8TeaQa

Edited by nitrobenz
Semantics

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7 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

You must be new.  Half the FAQ is rulings against RAI.

Not new. Just only come back every now and then to remind myself why I keep trying to forget this place.

Take the fact that half of you don't seem to understand the difference between RAW and RAI......

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