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Since the X-Wing is now jumping the shark on an original design constraint...how can the TIE Fighter be equally updated?

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2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Swx54-quickdraw.png

TIE/SF FIGHTER is a viable ship-type for TIE Fighter Only titles, as per the rules of the game

 

 

otherwise, I'd really stress keeping fixes simple (unlike what FFG did here). start throwing out too many conditions, especially on a ship you can have eight of, and you're going to grind gameplay to a halt

Blocking out the First Order is easy enough by making the initial enabling title "Galactic Empire Only".  That means OT guys, the First Order is a sub-faction of "Imperial", but they are not the Galactic Empire.

And I like the idea of the mods well enough that I wouldn't necessarily hate giving them to the other TIEs, too, but at a price - and obviously the limitation that they can only equip a single one at a time (excepting the Royal Guard Pilots, which need the help anyway).  Ergo, the title granting a discount to the Galactic Empire ships.

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Just now, ficklegreendice said:

No DONT block out first order!

The poor TIE/FOs need love too :(

Omega Leader says wut?  The TIE/fo is really not in near the same state as the TIE Fighter, and OL particularly is verging on OP for its cost.  I definitely wouldn't want that ship to get a defensive buff!  Maybe attack, sure, given 2-dice primaries are just weak sauce...but it could simply take that mod for its cost.  With the suggested revision to your idea I was making, it's only the title that is limited to the Empire.  I dunno, maybe some tweak to that to help 2-dice attacks...

  • Swarm Formation  (-1) point
    Title.  TIE Only.  Galactic Empire Only.
    You may equip up to 3 different 'TIE Only' modifications.  The squad point cost of these upgrades is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 0.
  • Defense Coordination Computer 1 point
    Modification. TIE Only
    When defending, a friendly TIE at range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled HIT or CRITICAL result instead of you.
  • Pursuit Calculator 0 points
    Modification. TIE Only
    When performing an attack of 2 dice or less, if you are not inside the defender's firing arc, and at range 1 of another friendly TIE, the defender rolls 1 fewer defense dice.

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2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Swarm Formation - 0 points

TIEtle. TIE Fighter Only


Somethingsomething Ion Engine - 0 points

Modification. Tie Fighter Only

TIEtle - haha!... 

... but you missed a chance with ModificatIon. 

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2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Swarm Formation - 0 points

TIEtle. TIE Fighter Only

When defending, a friendly TIE Fighter at range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled HIT or CRITICAL result instead of you.

You cannot equip this card if your agility value is "2" or lower.

I've suggested damage-sharing among a TIE swarm before too, so likewise believe it to be a subtle way to improve their effectiveness without going overboard. 

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Even with the casual occasional pick up game being an I play anymore, the fixes to the basic X are bonkers AF. That's a ton of stuff to be able to do across five upgrades on a ship that previously couldn't do half of it efficiently or if at all. And you can get FIVE of them!? Anyone who knows me from this forum knows my mantra of 'power creep will happen' but Jeezy Pete's. Did you need any more evidence at this point that it had? But still is this going to be enough to get a Wedge back on table? 

Edited by ForceSensitive

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I really feel like more TIEs is the answer here, How about a skill 0 TIE Pilot With a cost of 10, super thematic because now you have 2 more! 

 

Alternatively how about:

Unique Title: 

TIE Wing Commander/Reinforcements

When a friendly TIE Fighter at range 1-3 and with a cost of 15 or less is defeated, roll a Defense die. This roll cannot be modified, if you roll a focus result, instead of removing the Fighter, place it in your starting area, remove all damage cards from it and return all discarded upgrade cards to the ship.

Cost 2

 

I would actually really like to see something like this, but would obviously have to be playtested. I think it's super thematic to deny an enemy points for killing an easy to destroy TIE because they are demoralized by the 25% chance of another taking its place. Could also make it a critical hit roll instead to reduce th chance to 12.5%. It would also make the Commander a major target.

Edited by GILLIES291

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3 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Swarm Formation - 0 points

TIEtle. TIE Fighter Only

When defending, a friendly TIE Fighter at range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled HIT or CRITICAL result instead of you.

You cannot equip this card if your agility value is "2" or lower.

Somethingsomething Ion Engine - 0 points

Modification. Tie Fighter Only

When attacking, if you are not inside the defender's firing arc, the defender rolls 1 fewer defense dice

You cannot equip this card if your agility value is "2" or lower.

 

far easier on the eyes than servos :P

That mod would be so good on Epsilon Ace.  If that little blighter could actually do damage, that'd be something.

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22 minutes ago, GILLIES291 said:

TIE Wing Commander/Reinforcements

I was having similar thoughts - however your version would require you to keep that one titled TIE safe - most likely, out of the action entirely - so you're reducing your squad's effectiveness just for a chance you'll lose less points in MOV (because that's what it'll probably come down to). 

Might it be better as a title that goes on each of the TIE's that "When this ship would be destroyed, roll one defence die. On an [eye] result, discard this card and all damage on this ship then place the ship anywhere within range 1 of the edge of the playing area."

This would necessitate a zero costing to get it on all 8 ships, so alternatively you could make it a costed title that "When you are deployed, place a reinforcement condition token on the pilot card of each ship of the same type that is already deployed."  and the condition card would read as I've written above (but discarding the token instead of a title). 

 

- - - - - 

PS - somebody is bound to object to this on the grounds of "no, not more RNG!"  :D

Edited by ABXY

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I would like to see a -2 point reduction because TIE fighters should be dirt cheap.

Mass Production

TIE/ln and TIE/fo fighter only. Imperial only. (Remember that this is possible now because we have T-65 X-wing only restrictions)

This card has a negative squad point cost.

-2 squad points

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0 point title that lets a ship in the swarm use a focus of any other ship in the swarm (maybe a range 1-2 restriction).  Also when bumping another ship in the swarm you still get an action.

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9 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

there's a crapton of text regarding the x fix, but in very practical, simple terms it's just -3 points at the end of the day

Well, -2 for generics and -3 for elites, anyway. Which is fair enough, because -2 points on a generic means more (because the 'get an extra ship' limits are tighter further down the food chain).

9 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

also limit fixes to TIE fighters with 3+ agility because SFs are FINE

And/or Galactic Empire Only. Director Krennic is, at least in part, beginning an admission that First Order equipment makes a lot of the Classics look like hot garbage point-for-point, as well as in stats.

9 hours ago, xanderf said:

I think you are really selling s-foils short.  The ability to selectively t-roll is crazy, especially at high PS.  Nevermind the extra greens and added boost action for approach turns or retreat/regroup maneuvers.

It is a nice-to-have. Whilst turning a turn into a talon roll unplanned is relatively unlikely, having the option is nice. Being able to come out of a talon roll with a speed 2 bank is also nice, but it does compromise your firepower for the turn as well. But, ultimately, it's a free card. You don't have to use S-Foils for your second modification, just like you don't have to use integrated astromech for your first (although it's hard to think what you'd pick in favour of the latter on a T-65 which can't take autothrusters unless you take engine upgrade first*).

 

 

* Because a dual card's side isn't 'set' until you place it, 'your action bar gains [boost]' on one side won't entitle you to take autothrusters, just like Adaptability won't let you meet PS mandates the way Veteran Instincts will.

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I'd like to see a new TIE pilot that works well with swarms like Howlrunner does. I've no idea what the pilot ability would be, but it would be simpler to have one pilot affecting an entire swarm than stacking cards on cards on cards to a big TIE swarm. Maybe make it the first non-Unique pilot with an ability so you're not putting all your eggs in one basket, so to speak. 

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6 hours ago, ABXY said:

PS - somebody is bound to object to this on the grounds of "no, not more RNG!"  :D

"no, not more RNG!" 

Honestly surprised @ficklegreendicedidn't get in first.

6 hours ago, ABXY said:

I was having similar thoughts - however your version would require you to keep that one titled TIE safe - most likely, out of the action entirely - so you're reducing your squad's effectiveness just for a chance you'll lose less points in MOV (because that's what it'll probably come down to). 

Indeed. Not being able to risk that TIE essentially removes one TIE fighter from your swarm. Which if the fix is supposed to be increased weight of numbers, isn't actually that great an option.

6 hours ago, ABXY said:

Might it be better as a title that goes on each of the TIE's that "When this ship would be destroyed, roll one defence die. On an [eye] result, discard this card and all damage on this ship then place the ship anywhere within range 1 of the edge of the playing area."

This would necessitate a zero costing to get it on all 8 ships, so alternatively you could make it a costed title that "When you are deployed, place a reinforcement condition token on the pilot card of each ship of the same type that is already deployed."  and the condition card would read as I've written above (but discarding the token instead of a title). 

Eight free reinforcements would be a bit much, but random bonuses are also unreliable and hence largely not used. Also, several more elements of that are needed to avoid some nasty rules traps or issues.

My original suggestion was to make it cost points, and have it be "when a friendly TIE fighter would be destroyed" - that way you don't actually need to have the card attached to the one ship was destroyed, just one in play.

 

The Condition card, however, is a brilliant plan, and gets around most of the problems I've ever had making a reinforcements mechanic work, because:

  • You can attach the 'Endless Ranks' or 'TIE Swarm' card as a title to one friendly ship
    • If you make it a title, you instantly make it unappealing for the TIE/sf, because it would have to give up Spec Ops Training to field it.
    • Because the rules for the 'reinforcements' token are on the condition rules card, they remain in play if the guy with the title gets thwock-ed.
    • You don't need 8 copies of the same card - just 8 condition tokens, which take up a lot less space!
  • You can put the rules limiting what can have a reinforcement token on the 'TIE swarm' title whilst the effect is on the condition rules card. This gets around the biggest single problem with a complex rule - fitting it on the darn card!

 

I would humbly suggest the following tweaks from assorted mullings of reinforcements during mission scenarios.

  • TIE Fighter Swarm
    • Artwork - fighters launching from Scarif Shield Gate (or "They Hate That Ship" TIE/fo swarm).
    • Title. Imperial Only. TIE Fighter Only
    • After the 'Place Forces' step, choose any number of friendly TIE fighters and assign the Endless Swarm Condition card to each of them. You may not select unique pilots or ships with a total squad point cost greater than 20 points.
    • 4 points*
  • Endless Swarm Condition card
    • The first time you would be destroyed,  you may instead remove this card and remove the Endless Swarm Condition card from another friendly ship**.
    • If you do, cancel any remaining damage, and discard all damage cards and all tokens assigned to this ship. Then, recover all this ship's shields, remove this ship from the play area and place it more than range 3 from any enemy ship, within range 1 of any board edge***

 

This does have the downside that you're paying a flat cost for reinforcements, regardless of how many you get. Which is fine for a maxed-out swarm; because the cheaper the ships, the more reinforcements you get and vice-versa. It does make the upgrade no use as a balancing tool for putting someone wanting to put a single TIE fighter into a squad, nore does it help the unique pilots (a problem @ficklegreendice has pointed out with a lot of 'swarm buff' mechanics).

Personally, I don't think the TIE/fo is so desperately in need of help. It's hard to overstate how awesome Advanced Optics is on the generic TIE/fo for a 2 point upgrade. The generic TIE fighter is in a pretty bad place, though

Annoyingly, part of the issue is that the unique pilots are unique. I know that sounds stupid, but for a swarmy ship it's a really bugbear. Backstabber is a good example - if he wasn't unique, you could field 6 of him, and he's surprisingly close in practice to a PS6 TIE interceptor. I don't advocate removing the unique dots - because they represent named individuals and there is no more justification for having multiple mauler mithels than multiple luke skywalkers - but whilst their pilot abilities are all good, the inability to double down on such abilities means you get a squad which doesn't co-operate terribly well.

 

* allows 8 x academy pilots and TIE fighter Swarm (which would generate 4 reinforcements), or 6 x Epsilon pilots, TIE fighter Swarm (which would generate 3 reinforcements) and a 1 point upgrade per ship (Twin Ion Engines MkII or Primed Thrusters recommended).

** This means you get a 50% reinforcement rate, but get reinforcements after the first 50% casualties.

*** Avoids reinforcements getting range 1 shots instantly or teleporting into a blocking position without giving the opponent a chance to react

 

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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Why not create another pilot to buff their offense? 

By having a Howlrunner type buff where they can convert 1 eye to a hit result when attacking. 

This frees them up to just stack evades to try to mitigate the incoming damage. 

If need be make it on defense as well.

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I love the idea of swarm based damage sharing, but because two big issues with swarms are bomblets and harpoon splash, it owuld need to be more than just when defending.

I still like Endless Ranks:

Endless Ranks, title, 0 points

Galactic Empire Only, unique TIE Only

When you are destroyed, at the start of the next planning phase, flip your ship’s base token over, and your ship is returned to play anywhere within range 1 of a board edge.  Your pilot card is flipped to denote this, and the new ship has all non-unique upgrades equipped except this and any [elite] upgrade.

 

The new ship costs 0 points for the purposes of determining the victor of the game.

 

(The new ship is deployed the following round, which means that if you run out of ships entirely in a single round, the game ends at that point.  It costs 0, so it doesn’t affect to your MoV, but it can win the game if it (along with other Endless ships) is the only ship left on the board, and it contributes to final salvo if your remaining MoV is equal to theirs, but not in the case of mutual destruction.)

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7 minutes ago, Procastination said:

Granted, a few of the named TIE pilots are probably crying out for some more table time, but really does the TIE fighter at it's most basic need any help?

It's points efficient and manouverable, it fills its role perfectly as is.

It also pops like a soap bubble, hits like a dish towel, and its only major utility, blocking, is only relevant about half the time, at best.  Being points efficient and manoeuvrable doesn't matter when you die before you can make back your points cost.

E: or to put it another way, when was the last time you even saw a TIE Fighter on the table that wasn't Rex or Ahsoka?

Edited by thespaceinvader

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11 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Swarm Formation - 0 points

TIEtle. TIE Fighter Only

When defending, a friendly TIE Fighter at range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled HIT or CRITICAL result instead of you.

You cannot equip this card if your agility value is "2" or lower.

Somethingsomething Ion Engine - 0 points

Modification. Tie Fighter Only

When attacking, if you are not inside the defender's firing arc, the defender rolls 1 fewer defense dice

You cannot equip this card if your agility value is "2" or lower.

 

far easier on the eyes than servos :P

The first is a title so you don’t need the restriction. The SF won’t be taking this over its own title. 

What you might want is to make sure that only other TIEs with swarm formation take it. 

Another option would be TIE only, Galactic Empire only because I really don’t see why Interceptors and Bombers can’t be part of the formation. Again the title restriction means TIE Advanced is unlikely to take it and so is Soontir. 

I like the second a lot. It’s probably too good actually but Forward Facing Arcs need some love. 

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1: a 0 point title which allows all TIEs to use the highest pilot skill of the same type at range 1-2 during the activation AND combat phase.  Howlrunber swarm?  Now all your supporting Academy TIEs are PS8.

2. a 0 point modification which allows TIEs to make defence dice rolls against damage caused by bombs and mines.

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20 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

It also pops like a soap bubble, hits like a dish towel, and its only major utility, blocking, is only relevant about half the time, at best.  Being points efficient and manoeuvrable doesn't matter when you die before you can make back your points cost.

E: or to put it another way, when was the last time you even saw a TIE Fighter on the table that wasn't Rex or Ahsoka?

Oh yeah, I mean in terms of utility as a lone ship, a TIE isn't going to do much past blocking, but isn't that the point of it?

My train of thought is on the expendability and mass-produced style of ship that the TIE is, especially for the Empire. If any free upgrades are introduced to improve survivability it's surely going to be against the threat of harpoons and not much else. A survivable swarm sounds like a bit of nightmare to face off against.

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Most likely, 

another title and/or mod for basic TIEs that give some kind of defensive advantage against passive damage (bombs), 

And -2 points. 

 

It's just math, friends. 

5 X's need 10 TIEs to fight. 

Crowded?

Yes. 

More fun? 

Oh yeah.GON+TIES.jpg

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