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xanderf

Since the X-Wing is now jumping the shark on an original design constraint...how can the TIE Fighter be equally updated?

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Notably, in interviews early on in the life of the game, the 21 pts of the Rookie pilot was noted as being intentional, for the same reason Academy Pilot TIE Fighters were 12 pts.  In both cases, exactly one point higher than would have otherwise allowed 5-ship-swarms or 9-ship-swarms, which FFG playtesting at the time (waves 1-3, here) indicated was too powerful.

Obviously, today, we've had revealed something that changes that.

rookie-pilot.pngupgrade_renegade_refit.pngintegrated-astromech.pngswx72-flight-assist-astromech.jpgswx74_a2_upgrade_s-foils.jpg

So a 5x Rookie-pilot list is now possible.  And, indeed, quite a capable ship, there.

Yet...9x TIE Fighters still not possible.

Sooooo....what could be done?  Unfortunately, the X-Wing has a few more upgrade slots that let it have a number of possible fixes.  The lowly TIE Fighter, unfortunately, doesn't.  Just a mod 'slot' and title 'slot'.  Or potentially some kind of new list-wide refit?

The real question is - is there anything in the TIE Reaper expansion that could be that fix?

Edited by xanderf

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1 minute ago, xanderf said:

Notably, in interviews early on in the life of the game, the 21 pts of the Rookie pilot was noted as being intentional, for the same reason Academy Pilot TIE Fighters were 12 pts.  In both cases, exactly one point higher than would have otherwise allowed 5-ship-swarms or 9-ship-swarms, which FFG playtesting at the time (waves 1-3, here) indicated was too powerful.

Obviously, today, we've had revealed something that changes that.

rookie-pilot.pngupgrade_renegade_refit.pngintegrated-astromech.pngswx72-flight-assist-astromech.jpgswx74_a2_upgrade_s-foils.jpg

So a 5x Rookie-pilot list is now possible.  And, indeed, quite a capable ship, there.

Yet...8x TIE Fighters still not possible.

Sooooo....what could be done?  Unfortunately, the X-Wing has a few more upgrade slots that let it have a number of possible fixes.  The lowly TIE Fighter, unfortunately, doesn't.  Just a mod 'slot' and title 'slot'.  Or potentially some kind of new list-wide refit?

The real question is - is there anything in the TIE Reaper expansion that could be that fix?

Death troopers are nice

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2 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Death troopers are nice

Pretty sure those won't make a 9x TIE Fighter list possible.

It'd have to be a title or modification or...something aside from an upgrade-slot-item of some kind.

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there's a crapton of text regarding the x fix, but in very practical, simple terms it's just -3 points at the end of the day

TIE fighter doesn't need that because the TIE fighter wasn't nearly as poorly off

 

still think they'll be just dandy if you give them all free Outmanuever and Xizor's ability (albeit only affecting other TIE fighters, because why would someone important take damage for a lowly TIE fighter?)

also limit fixes to TIE fighters with 3+ agility because SFs are FINE

Edited by ficklegreendice

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T-65's problems were also fixed in this- It can both now Reposition, has durability, and can now sometimes reposition action free. Then they made it cheaper.

The TIE's problems are Frailty (3 health goes away FAST, frequently in one shot), Vulnerability to AoE effects (Bomblet Generator was the final nail in the coffin for them), and **** punching power (defensive mitigation squads laugh at them)

The T-65 is now better at Repositioning than the TIE. It hits harder, and is drastically harder to kill.

The TIE would need some way to punch through damage on defensive mitigation squads (100 point Regen,  Wookiees, Asajj, Palp Aces), resistance to AoE effects, and ability to not pop.

You may also need more of them.

The T-65 has FAA, IA, Servomotors, and Refit to make it viable, and Refit is staggeringly powerful. Could they even fit the text needed to make TIE Fighters, Bombers, Interceptors not named Soontir, etc, viable on cards? 3 titles would likely be needed, or another not-on-card slot.

Also, an aside- Bomblet is one of the worst designed cards I have ever seen. There is no consequence towards dropping a bomb unless you **** up majorly and hit yourself. Just put her in the back and **** one out every turn to waste time!

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Just now, ficklegreendice said:

there's a crapton of text regarding the x fix, but in very practical, simple terms it's just -3 points at the end of the day

TIE fighter doesn't need that because the TIE fighter wasn't nearly as poorly off

...

also limit fixes to TIE fighters with 3+ agility because SFs are FINE

I think you are really selling s-foils short.  The ability to selectively t-roll is crazy, especially at high PS.  Nevermind the extra greens and added boost action for approach turns or retreat/regroup maneuvers.

Although the point on other TIEs is certainly valid.  The TIE Fighter desperately needs a buff, but there are others - despite their own first pass at a fix, both the TIE Interceptor and TIE Advanced are trailing a bit in the meta.  The TIE Punisher is in a dire spot, as well as TIE Bomber not doing well.  OTOH, the TIE/fo and TIE/sf (and TIE Silencer) are...totally, totally solid.  So...going to have to be a pretty well focused fix.

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I'm probably selling servos short (alteration!), but mostly because I know turrets exist and they don't care. The X also moved like a tree stump, so it's fine in that context. I don't think the TIE needs to be spinning all over the place like Darth Vader after Han showed up in the falcon, especially when you can have 8 of them

I'm more focused just on raw stats as that seems to be the main defining feature in competitive viability, but there's also the key point that the combined servo text is utterly mind boggling and we really don't want more of it in the game

therefore, simple stat buffs to the TIE fighter please

much as I like that the X is FINALLY getting fixed, goddamn if it isn't through a troubling amount of added complexity

Edited by ficklegreendice

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12 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

T-65's problems were also fixed in this- It can both now Reposition, has durability, and can now sometimes reposition action free. Then they made it cheaper.

The TIE's problems are Frailty (3 health goes away FAST, frequently in one shot), Vulnerability to AoE effects (Bomblet Generator was the final nail in the coffin for them), and **** punching power (defensive mitigation squads laugh at them)

The T-65 is now better at Repositioning than the TIE. It hits harder, and is drastically harder to kill.

The TIE would need some way to punch through damage on defensive mitigation squads (100 point Regen,  Wookiees, Asajj, Palp Aces), resistance to AoE effects, and ability to not pop.

You may also need more of them.

The T-65 has FAA, IA, Servomotors, and Refit to make it viable, and Refit is staggeringly powerful. Could they even fit the text needed to make TIE Fighters, Bombers, Interceptors not named Soontir, etc, viable on cards? 3 titles would likely be needed, or another not-on-card slot.

Is Soontir even still a thing, anymore?  He was on the edge before the Palp nerf, I've really not seen him around since then.

I think you've hit the nail on the head for what the TIE problems are.  Defensive buffs seem like a good option to address the first two points - although it would have to be something in effect, somehow, otherwise...well, you'll just end up with a TIE/fo.  The 'attack' fix almost came with Krennic - his 'cancel one hit result to deal one shield damage' is a fantastic way around the limited attack dice a TIE Fighter puts out.  But...it's unique.  So...not the solution.

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5 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Is Soontir even still a thing, anymore?  He was on the edge before the Palp nerf, I've really not seen him around since then.

I think you've hit the nail on the head for what the TIE problems are.  Defensive buffs seem like a good option to address the first two points - although it would have to be something in effect, somehow, otherwise...well, you'll just end up with a TIE/fo.  The 'attack' fix almost came with Krennic - his 'cancel one hit result to deal one shield damage' is a fantastic way around the limited attack dice a TIE Fighter puts out.  But...it's unique.  So...not the solution.



you really gotta be careful with defensive buffs, though. Palp aces were already untouchable by most conventional means

which is why im fond of giving TIEs Xizor's ability

you buff durability by making sure you stay alive, but you're never not taking taking like with palp aces. It also encourages good positioning (palp is unlimited range) and swarms because it scales when you bring more TIEs to use as fodder friends

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:



you really gotta be careful with defensive buffs, though. Palp aces were already untouchable by most conventional means

which is why im fond of giving TIEs Xizor's ability

you buff durability by making sure you stay alive, but you're never not taking taking like with palp aces. It also encourages good positioning (palp is unlimited range) and bringing more TIEs to use as fodder friends

I think you have the right idea, because you can better protect a tie like howl runner who is budding your ties, and having a draw their fire like ability to spread the damage, which feels balanced since ties only have 3 hp. Feels pretty good fluff wise as well. Range restricted of course

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3 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Tie fighters may equip a free Comm relay, and when recieving a facedown damage card, may spend an evade to discard it.

Offence requires you to equip juke.

That's almost not even a bad idea.  Ideally you'd get both upgrades for free.  Kind of steals some of the TIE/fo's lunch, though...

What if you got them on a condition that was easily voided?  IE., a condition like 'Swarm Pilot: Equip the Juke and Comm Relay upgrades at 0 cost.  During the end phase, if there is not a friendly ship with this condition at range 1-2, discard this condition and all equipped upgrades.'  If you made it a title to equip the condition card, that'd eliminate the TIE/sf, TIE Advanced, TIE Advanced Prototype, and TIE Defender from really considering it.

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Just now, xanderf said:

That's almost not even a bad idea.  Ideally you'd get both upgrades for free.  Kind of steals some of the TIE/fo's lunch, though...

What if you got them on a condition that was easily voided?  IE., a condition like 'Swarm Pilot: Equip the Juke and Comm Relay upgrades at 0 cost.  During the end phase, if there is not a friendly ship with this condition at range 1-2, discard this condition and all equipped upgrades.'  If you made it a title to equip the condition card, that'd eliminate the TIE/sf, TIE Advanced, TIE Advanced Prototype, and TIE Defender from really considering it.

Stealing the FO's thunder was the thought- seeing as Sfoils pretty much is stealing the T70's.

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15 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Is Soontir even still a thing, anymore?  He was on the edge before the Palp nerf, I've really not seen him around since then.


I mean, the answer is: it's complicated.  Soontir isn't around because things like Nym and bombs and auto-blaster turrets at PS9 can eat him up, and he's also vulnerable to PS11 Fenn with HotShot Co-Pilot and other weaponized stress options.

That said, Soontir would be a huge threat against 5 Rookies, as he could really give them headaches while remaining nearly untouchable when flown conservatively.

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Swarm Formation - 0 points

TIEtle. TIE Fighter Only

When defending, a friendly TIE Fighter at range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled HIT or CRITICAL result instead of you.

You cannot equip this card if your agility value is "2" or lower.

Somethingsomething Ion Engine - 0 points

Modification. Tie Fighter Only

When attacking, if you are not inside the defender's firing arc, the defender rolls 1 fewer defense dice

You cannot equip this card if your agility value is "2" or lower.

 

far easier on the eyes than servos :P

Edited by ficklegreendice

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In answer to the OP: The future of the TIE Fighter is not in this game, at least not in its current version. The devs killed the TIE Swarm in cold blood. 

There are a lot of great possible ways to make TIE fighters good and fun. I doubt any of them will happen in an FFG sanctioned format. Alternate formats are the future of the TIE fighter, especially if you want it to have any thematic value in addition to viability against other ships. 

 

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16 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Swarm Formation - 0 points

TIEtle. TIE Fighter Only

When defending, a friendly TIE Fighter at range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled HIT or CRITICAL result instead of you.

You cannot equip this card if your agility value is "2" or lower.

Somethingsomething Ion Engine - 0 points

Modification. Tie Fighter Only

When attacking, if you are not inside the defender's firing arc, the defender rolls 1 fewer defense dice

You cannot equip this card if your agility value is "2" or lower.

I assume you mean "TIE Only"?  Otherwise, the agility limitation doesn't really ever come into play - the 'TIE Fighter' is agility 3.  And I'd sort of like to have these on the TIE Bomber and TIE Punisher, honestly.  Ooooh, and...hmmm...heh, what about something like this:

  • Swarm Formation  (-1) point
    Title.  TIE Only.  Galactic Empire Only.
    You may equip up to 3 different 'TIE Only' modifications.  The squad point cost of these upgrades is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 0.
  • Defense Coordination Computer 1 point
    Modification. TIE Only
    When defending, a friendly TIE at range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled HIT or CRITICAL result instead of you.
  • Pursuit Calculator 1 point
    Modification. TIE Only
    When performing a primary attack, if you are not inside the defender's firing arc, and at range 1 of another friendly TIE, the defender rolls 1 fewer defense dice.

...that then gives you a few different build options, which I like, as there are a few existing mods that can apply for some ships (Lightweight Frame for agility-2 ships and Mk II Ion Engines for everyone).  IE., a TIE Bomber would probably not take the Pursuit Calculator, but might take instead Lightweight Frame for a slight discount, alongside Mk II engines and DCC.  While a TIE Strike would go with DCC, PC, and LWF over Mk II engines.  Or maybe have the title just discount 2 mods?  I dunno, more choices then, which is always good, but not sure it'd be enough of a buff to the lowly TIE Fighter.

Edited by xanderf

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22 minutes ago, jmswood said:

If Soontir arc dodges 5 ships, the Rebel player is doing it wrong.

I mean, dodging 4 arcs and token-stacking against the 5th is pretty good, too.

7 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Swarm Formation  (-1) point

Title.  TIE Only.  Galactic Empire Only.

You may equip up to 3 different 'TIE Only' modifications.  The squad point cost of these upgrades is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 0.

Defense Coordination Computer 1 point

Modification. TIE Only

When defending, a friendly TIE at range 1 may suffer 1 uncancelled HIT or CRITICAL result instead of you.

Pursuit Calculator 1 point

Modification. TIE Only

When attacking, if you are not inside the defender's firing arc, and at range 1 of a friendly TIE, the defender rolls 1 fewer defense dice.

These are pretty solid. I was against the idea, but honestly now that we can fly 5 X-Wings, **** yeah let's get 9 TIEs on the table!

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8 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I assume you mean "TIE Only"?  Otherwise, the agility limitation doesn't really ever come into play - the 'TIE Fighter' is agility 3.  And I'd sort of like to have these on the TIE Bomber and TIE Punisher, honestly.  Ooooh, and...hmmm...heh, what about something like this:

Swx54-quickdraw.png

TIE/SF FIGHTER is a viable ship-type for TIE Fighter Only titles, as per the rules of the game

 

 

otherwise, I'd really stress keeping fixes simple (unlike what FFG did here). start throwing out too many conditions, especially on a ship you can have eight of, and you're going to grind gameplay to a halt

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