How many "fixes" is enough?

[jocke01 672]

First things first. Awesome that X-wing's are viable again. 

Sadly I don't think this can go on Forever. New packs brings powercreep so the old stuff get's left behind. Then they boost the old ships beyond some of the new stuff. Then the new stuff need buffs...

How many ships does not require you to buy another pack to field them efficient?

The x wing now has the core set, expansion, rebel transport and now this pack. That is alot for a new player to buy.

With the x wing boosted, ships like the B-wing needs another "fix" pack. I don't think this buisness model is good for the game. It's annoying for us veterans having to upgrade or ships 2-3 or event more times. For new players, it's a turnoff to buy into this game were most ship's requires multiple expansions.

What do you guys think?

[TasteTheRainbow 8,504]

I think given the choice between never playing x wings and having a few fiddly cards around my x wings I’ll take a few cards any day.

[Managarmr 1,911]

Question is, how many are really taking the cost for tourney play, where you have to have the physical cards?

I guess thats one of the reasons why G4H not really lifted off, you can build some awesome Kihraxz squads, but the money needed is quite prohibitive. Same might happen here, many are excited now (or moaning about Royal Guard Interceptors), reaction/excitement was exactly the same on G4H reveal!

[ficklegreendice 34,324]

I think they could've done without servos and maybe even the double mods on the refit

really, the meat of the fix is the massive efficiency buff given by the Refit + integrated astromech

but we'll see. Most likely case is you'll need servos for the top PS pilots to be at all competitive when stacked against the turret-fiesta that still dominates this game

edit: note, still don't believe we'll see Xs because they're ridiculous but only because they're Xs and they might be halfway decent now

Edited April 24, 2018 by ficklegreendice

[cybu 178]

10 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

For new players, it's a turnoff to buy into this game were most ship's requires multiple expansions.

Yes, that's indeed problematic. New players see the Tie Advanced and think: Wow, that's Vaders TIE, let's get that one next. And you go: No no, you need this big ship here to make it viable. 

On the other hand I usually tell new players to just print out a list from a squad builder. As long as they play at home, it doesn't matter if they have the phisical cards or not. And it also doesn't matter if they play suboptimal lists when they play with friends who are also new to the game. Tournament settings... that's a different story.

And with Saws Renegades you'll get the a good package with the X-Wing. The only thing you're really missing is Integrated Astromech. That's definitely a good starting point. 

[JaxonEvans 108]

There will never be enough. As any game progresses so does the power creep, so to keep old stuff relevant it will need a fix. Nothing wrong with that, it's an aspect of every game I've played that doesn't have a rotation system (which wouldn't work well with X-wing at the moment). What is nice is you don't have to provide a fix for every ship, just the main ones. And even then it's okay if there are times where they aren't relevant, as long as something eventually brings them back again. 

[jocke01 672]

2 minutes ago, JaxonEvans said:

There will never be enough. As any game progresses so does the power creep, so to keep old stuff relevant it will need a fix. Nothing wrong with that, it's an aspect of every game I've played that doesn't have a rotation system (which wouldn't work well with X-wing at the moment). What is nice is you don't have to provide a fix for every ship, just the main ones. And even then it's okay if there are times where they aren't relevant, as long as something eventually brings them back again. 

Well at this point, we have so many ships, pilots and upgrades. Yet only a few see major play since they aren't powerful enough or there exist better and/or cheaper alternatives.

I think this game needs a living rule document were costs and text can be changed when needed. There exist so many "dead cards" at this point. 

 

[tangoraven 85]

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I think they could've done without servos and maybe even the double mods on the refit

really, the meat of the fix is the massive efficiency buff given by the Refit + integrated astromech

but we'll see. Most likely case is you'll need servos for the top PS pilots to be at all competitive when stacked against the turret-fiesta that still dominates this game

edit: note, still don't believe we'll see Xs because they're ridiculous but only because they're Xs and they might be halfway decent now

Wes Janson should see some play. He benefits from both the refit discount and his VI is freee or other EPT is discounted by one.

[SabineKey 6,147]

13 minutes ago, tangoraven said:

Wes Janson should see some play. He benefits from both the refit discount and his VI is freee or other EPT is discounted by one.

All the new stuff plus VI and FAA comes out to 28 points. He's looking real tempting at that price point.

[tangoraven 85]

Just now, SabineKey said:

All the new stuff plus VI and FAA comes out to 28 points. He's looking real tempting at that price point.

He can barrel roll naturally with Servo, so I'll prefer R3-A2 unless someone else is carrying him.

Switch off Expertise and/or drop a token. If stress accumulating becomes a problem, flip Servo to get more green dial options.

Swiss army knife control ship with a wee bit offence.

Other EPTs can be viable too now that he can roll/boost.

[SabineKey 6,147]

7 minutes ago, tangoraven said:

He can barrel roll naturally with Servo, so I'll prefer R3-A2 unless someone else is carrying him.

Switch off Expertise and/or drop a token. If stress accumulating becomes a problem, flip Servo to get more green dial options.

Swiss army knife control ship with a wee bit offence.

Other EPTs can be viable too now that he can roll/boost.

Fair. I personally prefer the price of FAA and its potentially free actions (opening the door to double reposting), but the "Swiss army knife" effect is nice.

[KelRiever 205]

3 hours ago, jocke01 said:

First things first. Awesome that X-wing's are viable again. 

Sadly I don't think this can go on Forever. New packs brings powercreep so the old stuff get's left behind. Then they boost the old ships beyond some of the new stuff. Then the new stuff need buffs...

How many ships does not require you to buy another pack to field them efficient?

The x wing now has the core set, expansion, rebel transport and now this pack. That is alot for a new player to buy.

With the x wing boosted, ships like the B-wing needs another "fix" pack. I don't think this buisness model is good for the game. It's annoying for us veterans having to upgrade or ships 2-3 or event more times. For new players, it's a turnoff to buy into this game were most ship's requires multiple expansions.

What do you guys think?

Basically, never stop expanding games are just never going to start being balanced.

If you like chasing carrots, these games are for you.  I pretty much quit the constant casino nature of tournaments, and  number crunched lists, and really I never liked the people who really play them hard core much myself.  There are always decent people around, but for the most part, when people came to a tournament, if they won, I found them to be maximum toolbags. 

X-Wing certainly doesn't qualify as a game that even looks like a Star Wars movie when played to the hilt.  The FFG business model and selection of esoteric, weird ships that suit their vision, are not even close to being my thing.  The core rules are fun and as a base, and strictly casual game, this one is fine.  FFG is not the first, nor will it be the last, to have a hamster wheel game system.

Board games are where it is at, especially the ones that don't have expansions or where the expansions can be left out entirely.  Some of them sort of have miniatures.  Miniature games were made, for the most part, to never stop selling miniatures.  I love the way they look, and I love the ones you get to paint.  But for play, and rules, they all have a promise to fail at some point and yet to make people spend money to fix the problem.  Not my thing.

[ficklegreendice 34,324]

it actually really isn't that difficult to balance a game like x-wing

it's not like magic the gathering, which just floods itself with heaps upon heaps of new game pieces to the extent that it has to split itself into sets and formats.

FFG just does a lousy job at play-testing and balancing, and this has been the case since Wave 0 when the X-wing released as mathematically inferior to the more maneuverable TIE fighter

[CRCL 1,033]

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

it actually really isn't that difficult to balance a game like x-wing

it's not like magic the gathering, which just floods itself with heaps upon heaps of new game pieces to the extent that it has to split itself into sets and formats.

FFG just does a lousy job at play-testing and balancing, and this has been the case since Wave 0 when the X-wing released as mathematically inferior to the more maneuverable TIE fighter

I don't know if I'd go as far as to say that X-wing is an easy game to balance, but it would be much easier if FFG didn't put arbitrary restraints upon themselves when it comes to balancing the game. Also, as I've said many times before, their philosophy of fix by design rather than by refinement is just utterly stupid. 

On the topic of this 'fix', I still don't think we'll be seeing X-wings or U-wings on top tables. They'll get a boost in comparison to all the other wholesome ships/lists, but they'll still fold when faced with all the combo-turrets on the top of the meta atm (much like the Kihraxz fix).

[Marinealver 8,038]

Well as I said it is kind of like Magic the Gathering. So many terms and stuff has been added you can't just get a 3/4 for 3 and call it good not without some sort of token or new glossary term such as prolific. The simplicity of X-wing is no longer there because everything has been solved. If it is simple it is already known and the playbook against it has already been written.

Well it isn't like the torpedo slot has been used much but again this essential makes Plasma Torpedoes 6 cost instead of 4. As I said before I wished S-foils were an action instead of that dual side card (B-wings, Starvipers and ARC-170s?). However dropping them down to 18 points puts them on par with Y-wings.

But yeah naked ships are dead. Even an Academy Pilot is going to need a 0 point modification/title. Unless they want to reboot everything but again 2nd edition is a little too soon (at least wait for Episode 9 to come out).

[Jiron 418]

10 hours ago, JaxonEvans said:

As any game progresses so does the power creep, so to keep old stuff relevant it will need a fix. Nothing wrong with that, it's an aspect of every game I've played that doesn't have a rotation system (which wouldn't work well with X-wing at the moment).

Makes me sad for you... on the other hand, X-Wing is the last mainstream game I seriously play (also MtG but I only play that occationaly). I dropped all others because of the power creep and only play small semi-independent games.

[Jiron 418]

6 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

it's not like magic the gathering, which just floods itself with heaps upon heaps of new game pieces to the extent that it has to split itself into sets and formats.

Strange, I think the contrary. More and more upgrade cards and new mechanics in every expansion packs, some used on a single ship since then (Bullseye arc, Reload, Mobile Arc...) sounds entirely like Magic!

[jesper_h 679]

1. "When is this ship going to be fixed?", "Please fix the X-Wing already!", "The game is called X-Wing Miniatures and that ship isn't even good."

(some time later)

2. "It's annoying having to purchase the fixes I asked for!", "This is just stupid power creep!", "It can't go on like this!"

[Arma Quattro 472]

22 minutes ago, jesper_h said:

1. "When is this ship going to be fixed?", "Please fix the X-Wing already!", "The game is called X-Wing Miniatures and that ship isn't even good."

(some time later)

2. "It's annoying having to purchase the fixes I asked for!", "This is just stupid power creep!", "It can't go on like this!"

@FTS Gecko what did I tell you? ?

[MrAndersson 219]

11 hours ago, jocke01 said:

I don't think this buisness model is good for the game.

No, but it appears to be good for FFG's bottom line. And what do you think is more important to them; having a balanced game or making money?

[Procastination 481]

11 hours ago, jocke01 said:

First things first. Awesome that X-wing's are viable again. 

Sadly I don't think this can go on Forever. New packs brings powercreep so the old stuff get's left behind. Then they boost the old ships beyond some of the new stuff. Then the new stuff need buffs...

How many ships does not require you to buy another pack to field them efficient?

A game like X-Wing is never truly balanced. That's both a good and bad thing - it means things you prefer might not be so hot for play compared to stuff you have comparatively little interest in.

There's also the fact that the people who are responsible for promoting the game and keeping it healthy are fallible. Best comparison I can think of here is the JM5k expansion compared to Guns for Hire. A 1-ship expansion pretty much broke the game compared to a 2-ship multiple card expansion which tidied up a couple of ships without smashing the power curve. This only happens because nothing's perfect in expansion terms.

The X-Wing seems so drastic at the moment because it's been there from the start and has been notedly poor since the first few waves, even with the Rebel Transport pilots and Integrated Astromech. From my perspective the X-Wing is now simply more fun to list craft and fly, trusty T-65's are still going to get decimated by turret and harpoon spam.

[jocke01 672]

58 minutes ago, Arma Quattro said:

@FTS Gecko what did I tell you? ?

I started by stating "it's awesome that X-wing's are viable again.

I do see alot of new players quit early when the "buy in" is too high and complicated. Armada is currently growing in My local community, but X-wing is shrinking. That's My concern and perhaps it's just a local one.

I just hope X-wing doesent turn out like 40k a while back. If you turn away both new players and veterans, it's gonna go south fast.

Edited April 25, 2018 by jocke01
Edit

[Arma Quattro 472]

I agree and I am happy that more ships are available for playing, despite being an hardcore imperial player myself.

The shrinking effect might be localised or general, as a matter of fact here where I live Armada  is nowhere near xwing, with the latter staying with the same numbers as always. 

[FTS Gecko 22,669]

25 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

I started by stating "it's awesome that X-wing's are viable again.

I do see alot of new players quit early when the "buy in" is too high and complicated. Armada is currently growing in My local community, but X-wing is shrinking. That's My concern and perhaps it's just a local one.

I just hope X-wing doesent turn out like 40k a while back. If you turn away both new players and veterans, it's gonna go south fast.

Let's not overexaggerate here.  There are a lot of expansions for X-Wing - true - but unless you are talking about top-level tournament play, the but in is still low for new players (pick up The Force Awakens box set and Heroes of the Resistance and you have a solid Rebel list; or a TIE/fo and TIE/sf for the First Order).

For existing players, the last new releases for the game were in December 2017.  Saw's Partisans has just had a preview, but is unlikely to hit the shelves for another month or two at least.  That's a six month gap between releases.

Don't get me wrong, I've spent a lot of money on X-Wing this year, but on organised play and attending tournaments.  The last expansions I bought were before Christmas!  Comparing X-Wing's business model to WH40K, which has new products released every other week, is a bit much.

[Dreadai 759]

35 minutes ago, jocke01 said:

I started by stating "it's awesome that X-wing's are viable again.

I do see alot of new players quit early when the "buy in" is too high and complicated. Armada is currently growing in My local community, but X-wing is shrinking. That's My concern and perhaps it's just a local one.

I just hope X-wing doesent turn out like 40k a while back. If you turn away both new players and veterans, it's gonna go south fast.

I had a choice between Armada and x-wing ... I found the initial essential buy in for Armada to be much higher than for x-wing - I think maintaining currency in Armada is cheaper once you are in, but the new player barrier is high.

(Again agree with @FTS Gecko - neither are anything like 40K levels of madness)