Quickdraw with accuracy corrector needs a nerf

[JediConsular4hire 4]

I’m not sure why I don’t see many competitive players using Accuracy corrector on Quickdraw. Maybe I’m missing something. I’m still relatively new to this game but I feel like this combo is broken.

quickdraw has the capability of attacking with both arcs each round whenever able. When she loses a shield she gets to attack again. This equates to 8 guaranteed damage per round for 3 rounds. You might say, “well you have to line it up” or “just don’t shoot her”, and my response is yes, you have to line it up but in my experience it has been easily done every game. And eventually you must target her, so just choosing not to shoot at her when she is the only ship in your arc seems like a mistake.

Even without QuickDraw, putting accuracy corrector on any ship that only has 2 attack dice seems broken. It basically removes the element of luck from the game for the low cost of 3 points. This upgrade is fine for ships that roll 3 or more dice considering they could get lucky and roll more than 2 damage, and then have the accuracy corrector to lean on if they’re unlucky. But for a ship with 2 dice it just seems silly. What am I missing? How is this not considered OP?

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

1.) Forgot about green dice, evade, reinforce etc.

AC does NOT go around these without autoblasters (turret)

2.) Almost no one uses the double-tap title. It is ridiculously difficult to engineer in game, and even then if the thing you want to kill is in your primary arc you're going to use the title for its extra die

I have no idea what dance you guys do to make it "easy", it never happens here 

3.) You can easily do better using AC cluster missiles/tlt , or AC ghost/phantom 

Edited April 23, 2018 by ficklegreendice

[j_man_04 944]

This looks like a discussion for the general forum. Not the squad list forum.

[JediConsular4hire 4]

7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

1.) Forgot about green dice, evade, reinforce etc.

AC does NOT go around these without autoblasters (turret)

2.) Almost no one uses the double-tap title. It is ridiculously difficult to engineer in game, and even then if the thing you want to kill is in your primary arc you're going to use the title for its extra die

I have no idea what dance you guys do to make it "easy", it never happens here 

3.) You can easily do better using AC cluster missiles/tlt , or AC ghost/phantom 

Of course you can cancel with evade tokens or roll results, reinforce, etc. but when the average ship has 1-2 agility and needs to spend focus on an attack. The odds are not quite in your favor. I meant the 2 damage is guaranteed to be in your pool, which is insane. It takes chance and turns it into a certainty.

 

Thats strange that it never happens for you. The group I play with always uses the title and always manages to get a ship in both arcs. Barrel rolls, the enemy choosing to ignore quickdraw’s aux arc to plan attacks of its own during maneuver. It just happens, it seems unavoidable in the games I’ve been playing. 

Even without QuickDraw, just being able to equip a ship with a 2 die attack value is mathematically unfair. I think they should have an errata that says something like “do this only if you have 3 or more attack dice”. I just feel like it was an oversight. 2 attack dice with AC after a finished game will end up producing the same number of attack results as 4 attack dice without AC. Only,  the 2 with AC remains constant while the 4 without could produce much less on a bad day. 

[JediConsular4hire 4]

17 minutes ago, jwilliamson12 said:

This looks like a discussion for the general forum. Not the squad list forum.

Probably so, I didn’t see that option. My bad.

 

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

It really isn't an oversight

Once you've gotten more experience, you'll see that AC doesn't stack up at all to the ability to concentrate firepower with Fire Control System

Remember, the SF already gets 3 dice out of its primary (title) and it's not unlikely to roll two hits without modifiers. With both focus and target lock, you get 3 hits very reliably (4 at range 1) 

Plus there are plenty of ships at 0-2 agility that just don't care about two hits. The ghost can evade, the Auzzie reinforce, rebel c3po crew exists, etc. Asajj with Latz crew or Poe with r2d2 would absolutely laugh every attack off 

Finally, theres also the fact that other ships can easily do more than two damage to quickdraw for much cheaper 

Don't know what to tell you other than that. AC just isn't that good and fire control system is vastly superior unless the ship only ever throws 2 dice 

Edited April 23, 2018 by ficklegreendice

[wurms 5,313]

AC on Quickdraw is not ideal simple because people WILL attack her knowing its most likely just going to be 2 attack coming back. Quickdraw lives early games by having that scare tactic. When quickdraw is range 1 with a TL and focus/expertise, YOU DO NOT SHOOT AT QUICKDRAW. With accuracy corrector, you shoot at quickdraw every time.

The double shot is mostly useless unless your target is in the rear at range 1, then you might as well fire from your front if anyone is there.

If you are constantly getting shots in both arcs, that probably means you are in a kill box of some kind getting multiple shots on you from different directions. I can't imagine an opponent that has both ships flying away from you.

6 minutes ago, JediConsular4hire said:

2 attack dice with AC after a finished game will end up producing the same number of attack results as 4 attack dice without AC. Only,  the 2 with AC remains constant while the 4 without could produce much less on a bad day. 

You are only do "maths" for 4 naked red dice.

Quickdraw with FCS has a lock on opponent. 3 red dice with a lock is 2.25 expected hits > accuracy corrector. QD is PS9, so she can stay on target most of the time.

4 red dice with just a focus is 3 expected hits.

AC would be better for a low PS Zeta Spec TIE S/F who wont be able to stay on target.

 

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

The only currently strong case I've used for AC isn't something that competitive players actually use at all

That's twin laser turret "havoc" with AC (also debris gambit fir evades, ACTIOM bombs, and Experimental interface to debris gambit and bomb more)

Twin laser turret isn't arc restricted at all and, as a secondary weapon, does not give additional green dice to defenders at range 3. Since it's two attacks, you can't just stack guaranteed defenses to trivially avoid all  damage

AC also lets you sit on focus and debris gambit evades for defensive modification 

It actually feels dirty using this combo, but even then you're only doing (max) two damage to a ship a turn. You need to use those bombs to actually do any real work 

 

Other than that, there's the ghost/phantom autoblasters for GUARANTEED four damage regardless of anything at all

But that's range 1 only and you'll lose the ghost before the opponent loses 60ish points of stuff, unless they fly nothing but expensive tie interceptors. Ergo, no one bothers with it 

Edited April 23, 2018 by ficklegreendice

[theBitterFig 11,598]

Don't get me wrong.  I think Accuracy Corrector is great on TIE/SFs, I'm probably one of the biggest AccC boosters on SFs on here, but mostly only generic ones.

@wurms is right that, over time, FCS on 3 dice will yield 2.25 hits.  But that's only on subsequent attacks.  The initial attack, without modifiers, is 1.5 hits.  Accuracy Corrector on three dice is 2.125.  2.125*2 > 1.5 + 2.25.  So it almost looks like Accuracy Corrector would be better.  But this is where being PS 9 or 11 on Quickdraw will help, so you can easily stay on a target turn-over-turn.  Additionally, Quickdraw's ability to attack multiple times really accelerates the math.  Quickdraw also has a better chance of jumping into Range 1, where things really change.  FCS without-focus is 3 hits average on 4 dice, but Accuracy Corrector is 2.375.  So counting a single range 3/no token attack, things pull even if you don't spend focus tokens offensively.  However, once you add a focus to that, FCS really pulls ahead.  QD at Range 1 with a Focus/Expertise/A Score to Settle and a TL from last turn and a shield is SUPER scary.

Last tournament game I played, I ran on Poe from a 1-shield Expertise Quickdraw, since I knew the only thing which could lose me the game was if QD got double-attacks in the same round and rolled high.  Accuracy Corrector makes the super-high-roll situations a lot more rare.  I turn in and fight an AccC Quickdraw in that situation.

I think it's not necessarily terrible on Quickdraw, say with Advanced Optics to bank a focus, and Debris Gambit for maximum defense.  It'll be a lot harder to lose all 3 shields in a round... If you're able to pull off an extra attack by losing 1 fewer shield, that might be enough of an average damage increase over FCS.  But mostly, AccC not as good, and FCS is cheaper and has higher burst potential, which is important.

AccC on Backdraft is also bad, because Backdraft can't use both Accuracy Corrector and the rear-arc Crit on the same attack.  Using AccC wipes out the crit, or prevents it from being added.

But I really love a 28 point AccC Zeta Specialist with Lightweight Frame.  It's almost like a TIE Defender: kinda 3 red dice, kinda 3 green dice, and able to use a focus defensively every turn, but you gain that nifty rear arc.  It's one of my favorite little ships to play with.  Most games I use one, I'll tend to get double front/rear shots at least once.  Meanwhile, you don't need to telegraph who you're targeting next round and can easily switch targets or barrel roll to block with solid offensive dice modifications.  I LOVE Accuracy Corrector.  But even I have to admit: Quickdraw is just better with Fire Control System.

Edited April 23, 2018 by theBitterFig

[JediConsular4hire 4]

1 hour ago, wurms said:

You are only do "maths" for 4 naked red dice.

Quickdraw with FCS has a lock on opponent. 3 red dice with a lock is 2.25 expected hits > accuracy corrector. QD is PS9, so she can stay on target most of the time.

4 red dice with just a focus is 3 expected hits.

AC would be better for a low PS Zeta Spec TIE S/F who wont be able to stay on target.

 

 

Youre not alone in the love for TL. I see FCS as the competitive option on every forum. Personally, I don’t understand why FCS is superior. Free target locks is great. You can take an action, spend your target lock and reroll some dice. I mean that’s cool, but you still have to fight probability. AC completely removes probability. I had a guy roll blanks/focus (no token) 3 times in a row on his 2 dice. He turned zero damage into 6 without doing anything. A TL gives you a 50/50 chance to maybe turn your blanks into hits...

Edited April 23, 2018 by JediConsular4hire

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

You have to fight probability regardless

And generally, you don't fight lucky green dice with a piddly two hits. You need to hit in excess of their agility + evade token to get any damage to stick 

I ******* hate the dice in this game (well, a specific kind of dice...guess which) so trust that when I say AC ain't enough I'm speaking from practice

A LOT of practice

The limitations of two HIT results more than balances AC's utility 

****, in some cases you'll get guarantees you DONT want. Ever try using two HIT results to damage a millennium falcon with evade token + c3po?

It's literally impossible

Edited April 23, 2018 by ficklegreendice

[JediConsular4hire 4]

30 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

You have to fight probability regardless

And generally, you don't fight lucky green dice with a piddly two hits. You need to hit in excess of their agility + evade token to get any damage to stick 

I ******* hate the dice in this game (well, a specific kind of dice...guess which) so trust that when I say AC ain't enough I'm speaking from practice

A LOT of practice

The limitations of two HIT results more than balances AC's utility 

****, in some cases you'll get guarantees you DONT want. Ever try using two HIT results to damage a millennium falcon with evade token + c3po?

It's literally impossible

Evade tokens are rare. Granted, I’m new to the game, but I don’t have a single ship in my collection that even has the evade action on its bar. I like/agree with your username. But in the way I see fickle green dice, they work against the defender, not for them. Only 3 evade sides, the same number as blanks. While the attack dice has 4 damage sides with just 2 blanks.

Idk, maybe my attack rolls are just unlucky and I need to keep playing this game. I just don’t enjoy the experience of constantly being bombarded with 2 damage even after my opponent rolls blanks, then rolling 4 attack dice of my own with the same 2 hit result (after spending my focus die to turn on of those dice into a hit). sf/tie with the accuracy corrector just felt a lot like cheating to me. 

[JediConsular4hire 4]

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

FCS on 3 dice will yield 2.25 hits

But QD with AC attacking from both arcs yields 4 hits... and there is no standard deviation whatsoever. I do appreciate your entire comment though. Good analysis of FCS and AC. Maybe I need to spend more time playing the game. I just feel that AC on a ship that has 2 die is nuts on a game that runs on probability.

Edited April 23, 2018 by JediConsular4hire

[wurms 5,313]

Lets make this a "Squad List" thread since its here. If I had to use Accuracy Corrector on Quickdraw, Im gonna get the most out of it:

"Quickdraw" (29)
Outmaneuver (3)
Accuracy Corrector (3)
Advanced Optics (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 39

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Im doin adv optics for permanent defense mod. And Im outmaneuver EPT since Im PS9 and it will shut down Miranda's and Lowhhricks with C3PO that run away from you or in which you dodge their arc, and helps push damage through with the two dice. Your actions are free to target lock and save it for revenge shots or range 1 shots so you do get full r1 mods, or you can barrel roll, hopefully kicking in outmaneuver. AC is also rebel Fenn proof, along with sensor jammer proof, so there is that.

Maybe a squad like:

"Quickdraw" (29)
Outmaneuver (3)
Accuracy Corrector (3)
Cluster Missiles (4)
Advanced Optics (2)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Linked Battery (2)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

Nu Squadron Pilot (18)
Heavy Laser Cannon (7)
Linked Battery (2)
Long-Range Scanners (0)
XG-1 Assault Configuration (1)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Flank with QD. Give your opponent the option of turning their back on two HLC gunboats, or outmaneuver QD with cluster missiles. Choice is theirs. Cluster Missiles with ACC and outmaneuver will cripple ships like Miranda, and do solid work against rebel fenn, or even the ghost, getting 6 dmg in when QD does his return fire.

Edited April 23, 2018 by wurms

[Skeether 148]

You see, the TIE SF really isn't a 2 attack dice ship. It's really a 3 unless you plan on killing something easily with 2 (it has 0 or 1 agility) and then taking a pot shot out the rear that is capped at 2 with AC. It really isn't that strong, just believe us. 2 damage is really just not that good no matter how you slice it from a ship that costs as much as QD does. So with AC you are trading a better chance at those 3 or 4 dice hits with FCS and much more spike damage (which carries a lot more value in X-wing than consistent low damage over time).

I've flown SFs a great many times and I've  NEVER  had an opportunity in which I wished I had AC over FCS. Even when I get a double shot opportunity, I usually want to dump more dice into the ship I'm trying to focus down. Plain and simple dude. It just is not that good. I'm not an expert at the math but I think these guys have laid down some good fat to chew on and there is more out there about it.

Edited April 23, 2018 by Skeether

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

1 hour ago, JediConsular4hire said:

Evade tokens are rare. Granted, I’m new to the game, but I don’t have a single ship in my collection that even has the evade action on its bar. I like/agree with your username. But in the way I see fickle green dice, they work against the defender, not for them. Only 3 evade sides, the same number as blanks. While the attack dice has 4 damage sides with just 2 blanks.

Idk, maybe my attack rolls are just unlucky and I need to keep playing this game. I just don’t enjoy the experience of constantly being bombarded with 2 damage even after my opponent rolls blanks, then rolling 4 attack dice of my own with the same 2 hit result (after spending my focus die to turn on of those dice into a hit). sf/tie with the accuracy corrector just felt a lot like cheating to me. 

(with focus, guaranteed at least 1 evade)

 

(Shield regen = 1 damage you dealt last round is now canceled)

EDIT: Forgot the TIE/x7 and TIE/v1 titles that give evade tokens to ships that normally can't evade

and that's just the better guaranteed stuff that you'll see just about literally anywhere (in a competitive scene). Most likely, you'll see them combined across either a list or a single ship or both (can definitely expect to see c3po aboard a ship that regenerates, supported by Lowhrick, or see an auto-thruster ship that can evade being supported by palpatine, or just seeing Latz on Asajj that can feed her stress and also take the evade action)

Even discounting all that, you (should) be rolling 1 evade per 3 green dice, unless you're me. Stack any of the guaranteed evades atop any but the absolute least lucky defense rolls possible, and AC shots just slick off like water on a laminated surface

AC isn't like cheating at all, it isn't even very good next to all these defensive options. all it does is make rolling suck less by taking red dice out of the equation. Feeling cheated by dice is going to occur regardless. You'll always have games where the guy across from you rolls four hits without mods while you get one with re-rolls + focus. I've had entire tournaments with that crap going on, and it wasn't AC's fault because no one uses the poor thing. And no one uses the poor thing because of the above-mentioned cards

In practical terms, if someone can't deal with a measly two HITs per attacks, and especially if QD is constantly being allowed double-arc shots, then it's a question of player practice not card power

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by ficklegreendice

[JediConsular4hire 4]

56 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

you (should) be rolling 1 evade per 3 green dice

Only the fastest ships in the game get 3 green dice by default. Two of those upgrades you listed come from expensive epic sets and all the listed cards are conditional. Autothrusters is the only one I think is good and maybe C3PO if you’re a good guesser. I use reinforce on my Auzzie every action, which is why I don’t see Lowhhrick being useful unless you’re in the perfect situation where a ship can’t attack him but another ship within range 1 of him. Give up a well-placed reinforce token for 1 evade token? No thanks, it’s like trading 3 evade tokens for 1 evade token. 

The thing about AC is that it isn’t conditional. You might as well put your dice in your pocket and see what the green dice do against your hits. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by JediConsular4hire

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

Oh man, if you think any of the cards I listed are too conditional, you really do need to get more games in

Those are all basically tier I/II cards ito competitive play (low is also one of the top 4 most used pilots in the game, favored over other auzzies strictly for his ability), and also cards you should memorize if you hate green dice like I do because they are godsends 

Also I'd definitely encourage proxying to try stuff like 3po before purchasing a cr90s (but really you should buy the single instead if you really like him)

 

the trick with c3po isn't about guessing at all, you just take it on a 1 agility ship (generally Low, Miranda, or Norra) and always guess zero. Now you're guaranteed one evade result, regardless of what you roll. It's like accuracy corrector, but with green dice (and better, because you can further modify your defense roll with stuff like Norra's ability or Low's reinforce token)

only time you ever guess more than 0 is if you need X evades to not die, and X > 1

in fact, here's a fun build: Norra Wexly (Push the limit, R2-d2, c3po, alliance overhaul)

1.) Use push the limit to acquire focus + TL with which to use Norra's ability (spend TL adds a FOCUS result to roll, use FOCUS to change it to a HIT or EVADE).

2.) when defending, guess zero with C3po (1 evade, ah ha ha)

3.) You can spend the TL + focus for norra's ability to generate 1 evade, 2 if you rolled a FOCUS on your green die (2 evades, ah ha ha)

4.) on the following turn, executing a green maneuver with r2-d2 grants you a shield

for a grand total of 3 damage canceled per round, guaranteed (could be 4 if you add Low's ability)

and Norra is considered to be strictly worse than Miranada Doni (for good reasons). Poor AC really doesn't have a chance.

especially when you consider you can field a pretty good list between Norra (guaranteed 3 damage canceled per round), Low (guaranteed 1 damage canceled per round with reinforce), and some sheathipeede support

Edited April 24, 2018 by ficklegreendice

[wurms 5,313]

24 minutes ago, JediConsular4hire said:

Only the fastest ships in the game get 3 green dice by default. Two of those upgrades you listed come from expensive epic sets and all the listed cards are conditional. Autothrusters is the only one I think is good and maybe C3PO if you’re a good guesser. I use reinforce on my Auzzie every action, which is why I don’t see Lowhhrick being useful unless you’re in the perfect situation where a ship can’t attack him but another ship within range 1 of him. Give up a well-placed reinforce token for 1 evade token? No thanks, it’s like trading 3 evade tokens for 1 evade token. 

The thing about AC is that it isn’t conditional. You might as well put your dice in your pocket and see what the green dice do against your hits. 

There is no guessing on c3po on a 1 agility ship. It always produces 1 evade result with a guess of 0.

Palp is always a guaranteed evade.

Latss is always a guaranteed evade against a stress ship (and that is any one ship in asajj mobile arc and range 1-2). 

R2d2 is a guaranteed shield when doing a green move.

See how these are all guaranteed? And they are all in the top lists. So your 35+ quickdraw with ACC is only doing 1 damage IF THEY ROLL BLANKS ON THEIR GREEN DICE. Otherwise, you did zero damage.

Get more games in, you will catch on.

[JediConsular4hire 4]

1 hour ago, wurms said:

There is no guessing on c3po on a 1 agility ship. It always produces 1 evade result with a guess of 0.

Good point. I didn’t think about this. Honestly might buy the c3po single just for this reason. I run ARC and Auzz a lot. Palpatine’s ability is a guaranteed anything, but 2 crew slots and 8 points? Ouch. The other ones are still conditional. And without specifically playing a strategy where you cater to evade results, rolling 2 evades based on raw dice is very lucky/difficult. But hey you’re right, I have plenty to learn. Just sharing my thoughts thus far.

[JediConsular4hire 4]

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

 

Oh man, if you think any of the cards I listed are too conditional, you really do need to get more games in

 

Not “too” conditional just conditional. AC is not. It feels strange for ffg to make a card that breaks the foundation of rolling dice. 

I am going to try out Lowhhrick though, just bc we had this dialogue. Didn’t know he was used that often. He doesn’t seem great to me on paper, but I’ll decide after I actually use him in practice.

[flooze 544]

6 hours ago, wurms said:

Latss is always a guaranteed evade against a stress ship (and that is any one ship in asajj mobile arc and range 1-2). 

Games I flew her had always enough stress around, so I second that statement

[Magnus Grendel 11,679]

Pretty much what @ficklegreendice said.

• Accuracy corrector is awesome on 2-attack-dice ships.
• Quickdraw, however, isn't a 2-attack-dice ship; with Spec Ops Training (a free title) she's a 3 attack dice ship.
  • Yes, theoretically you can spam 4 attacks per turn, all causing two hits, which is great - but getting for-and-aft double-taps is not easy because it depends on your opponent voluntarily shooting you when you're in a position to do such a thing.
• A 3-dice attack with a focus token produces an average of two-and-a-bit hits, making it more powerful than an accuracy corrected attack most of the time.
• Yes, you won't have that token for your second attack, (which is why the accuracy corrector is nice on a TIE/x1 with Cluster Missiles, or the Havoc with a Twin Laser Turret) but Quickdraw can relatively easily get a target lock (Fire Control System) and focus-to-hit modifications (Expertise) on both attacks - meaning more than likely 3 hits on every attack - or even 4 hits at range 1 - instead.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good card. But it's two best uses by far are on an Autoblaster Turret armed Havoc or Ghost (two damage, no evasion) or a swarm of Cluster Missile armed TIE advanced (because it's free on that chassis and you can pack in four of the buggers to spit lots and lots of attacks whilst evading).

[Yearfire 197]

Another thing to consider is that when you invest in an expensive ship, you want something for those points. 3 points for AC might be a bargain for a cheap 2-attack-dice generic (Like the Tempest), but when you pay the points for a PS9 with one of the best offensive abilities in the game, putting some extra points into that to make those shots hit even harder (FCS+Expertise for instance) is more reasonable.

[ficklegreendice 34,362]

I remember when the raider first dropped and I was all "yeaaaaah 3 AC tempests and an AC deathrain will delete TLTs and bomb palp aces!"

never, ever managed to delete a Y in a single turn. In fact, some motherlover managed to take only four damage after all four shot at him (no defensive mods at all)

then someone showed up with the Paul heaver world's list, which came down to poe v 2 tempests, and I just knew Poe was at that point immortal. So, I just ran away with both for 45 minutes.

that's how "not great" AC is

still, kept it on Deathrain to combat TLTs and replaced the tempests with Advanced Targeting Computer vader and juke/relay  omega leader who could actually hurt things like palp aces or IG-2000s

Edited April 24, 2018 by ficklegreendice