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Posted (edited)

My impression is that moving off the map is not really moving. It's spending a movement point to trigger an effect to take a figure off the map. This effect is usually part of the quest description. In some quest there are doors or tunnels that can be passed by spending a movement point. Moving off the map seems similar in this respect.

Thus, if Grease Trap is triggered when a hero enters the last space of an exit tile, he would hit the wall. Interestingly, this interpretation would also mean that a hero cannot move off the map with effects such as "move up to you speed" or "move X spaces".

However, if this is true, is spending that last movement point considered to be an interrupt? Does that mean that you cannot leave the map if the exit tile is occupied by friendly figures as you cannot interrupt movement on an occupied space?

Thoughts?

Edited by Sadgit

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I personally disagree with this thought process. If I, as a hero, move into the last EMPTY space of the exit tile (which is required to play Grease Trap), I would argue that Grease Trap would move me 3 spaces in the direction I was already moving. The first of those "spaces" would trigger moving me off of the map, allowing me to succeed in my goal of being off of the map.

In addition, I am virtually certain that I remember reading an official FFG ruling that a viable strategy to "protect" a path through the exit tile is to position heroes in such a way that you can move through them, and thus off of the map, with anything that provides you that movement point.

 

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I think that is likely that spending a movement point to leave the map is most likely not considered to be an interrupt. However, the rules explicitly state that a movement point needs to be spend to leave the map. Grease Trap does not grant movement points. 

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1 hour ago, Sadgit said:

However, if this is true, is spending that last movement point considered to be an interrupt? Does that mean that you cannot leave the map if the exit tile is occupied by friendly figures as you cannot interrupt movement on an occupied space?

Thoughts?

The rules say on page 9: "To move off the map, the figure must move to one of the edge spaces (marked below in red) on the entrance or exit tile and then spend one movement point."

Spending a movement point is something figures must be able to do when on a friendly figure's space, otherwise they would never be able to exit that space (and therefore never be able to enter it). I would be wary of making moving off the map an exception to this rule.

However, I do agree that Grease Trap would not make the hero slide off the map, as he has to spend that movement point. Same for "move X spaces", as no movement point is gained.

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Posted (edited)

This view is in agreement with an uFAQ on the teleporters in the TSR quest Monster's Hoard. FFG has confirmed that figures may spend a movement point to teleport from one objective token to the next even if a friendly figure is in the space of the starting objective token. Most likely spending a movement point in general is not considered an interrupt regardless of the effect triggered: moving to an adjacent space, leaving the map, interacting with objective or other tokens, etc.

Edited by Sadgit

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I think it would be an interrupt. My perspective would be you occupy that space and then you can spend a movement point. (Since you are not spending that point to enter a space- you are spending that point to trigger leaving the map).

Basically I'm restating that I think spending a movement point to leave the map is an interrupt. I don't have any FAQ entries to back that up. When I have more time I want to look at Sadigit's reference to the uFAQ- I could be thinking about this wrong.

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I don't think the uFAQ applies perfectly to this situation (because the figure is moving to another glyph as if it were an adjacent space). A hero moving off the map is not moving to an adjacent space- they are spending a movement point to trigger leaving the map.

I think that spending a movement point to leave the map is different from spending movement points to move.

My reasoning for that is you do not spend movement points to leave spaces during everyday movement. (The space you currently occupy does not affect your movement, barring sludge reducing your speed).

You spend movement points to enter adjacent spaces the vast majority of the time. So I distinguish "spending a movement point while on a specific space to leave the map" from "spending a movement point to enter an adjacent space".

I think it's logical, but I agree with @Ispher's notion that you must be able to spend movement points while on a space occupied by a friendly figure. I just think that moving off the map is fundamentally different from general movement, and that the space you leave the map from must be empty.

I would be okay with the interpretation that leaving the map is part of normal movement, and as such, you may leave the map by moving through friendly figures. Currently I don't hold that position, but I'm not against adopting it.

 

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Posted (edited)

Spending a movement point does not interrupt movement. It IS movement. The only real difference between moving off the map and ordinary movement is that there is no entered space. If spending a movement point interrupted movement, a large monster could expand every time it spent a movement point.

There are special cases where spending a movement point leads to interruption, but that is almost always when spending a movement point is a cost to trigger another ability such as making a test. 

I am in full agreement that Grease Trap doesn't slide a hero off the map (again, because there are no spaces to enter).

Edited by Zaltyre

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for all responses. To summarize:

Moving off the map is possible with abilities and effects that do not grant movement points.
Yes: Any2Cards
No: Zaltyre, Sadgit, Ispher, Lightingclaw

Spending a movement point to trigger an effect other than moving into an adjacent space is considered an interrupt.
Yes: Zaltyre (except when moving off the map), Ispher
No: Sadgit, Any2Cards, Ispher

@Zaltyre: I understand that in your opinion spending a movement point to move off the map is different from other abilities and effects that cost one movement point. Could you please elaborate? It would be great to work out a common (hopefully) simple rule, that allows players to quickly resolve any issues with these effects. I admit I am a bit obsessed with it. But what is to be expected of someone who did spend virtually hundreds of hours on the CRRG :). So I complied a list of quest rules that allow players to use a movement point to do something. I think I got most, OCR for the win. Sorry for wall of text that follows, but it might give us some basis for further discussion.

1. Quest rules that allow figures to "move off the map".

Dozens of examples, starting with with First Blood (TSR).  Maybe this quest rule is interesting as it is not standard "moving off the map":

  • Respected Citizen (SoN): "Bertram cannot move onto a rile containing a monster  figure but may move through spaces occupied by heroes by spending 1 additional movement point. Bertram may spend 1 movement point while adjacent to one of the unique spaces on the map marked with an "X" to move off the map.

2. Quest rules that allow figures to spend a movement point to move to another space "as if spaces were adjacent".

  • The Shadow Vault (TSR): "A figure may spend 1 movement point while on a staircase to move to the other staircase as if they were adjacent spaces."
  • Siege of Skytower (HoB): " While the door on the waterfull is open, a figure on a waterfall runnel may spend 2 movement points to move to another waterfall runnel as if they were adjacent spaces."
  • Blood and Betrayal (HoB): "A figure on a unique space may spend 1 movement point to move to another empty unique space as if they were adjacent spaces."
  • Rude Awakening (LotW): "During his activation, the Innkeeper may spend 1 movement point while adjacent to the locked door to open it."
  • Spreading Affliction (TT): "After the hidden passage has been opened, a figure may spend 1 movement point while on a hidden passage to move to the other 
  • hidden passage as if they were adjacent spaces."
  • Local Politics (SoN): "A hero may spend 1 movement point while on a ladder to move to the ocher ladder as if they were adjacent spaces."
  • Overdue Demise (SoN): "After the tunnel has been opened, a figure may spend 1 movement point while on a runnel to move to the other tunnel as if they were adjacent spaces."
  • Arise my Friends (SoN): "A monster may spend l movement point while on a rift to move to the corresponding rift as if they were adjacent spaces. A hero may spend 1 movement point while on a rift associated with the red objective token to move to the corresponding rife as if they were adjacent spaces. 
  • Without Mercy: "A figure may spend l movement point while on a passageway to move to another passageway as if they were adjacent spaces."
  • The Black Realm (SoN): "Verminous may spend 1 movement point while on a sewer rift to move to the other sewer rift as if they were adjacent spaces."

3. Quest rules that allow figures to spend movement points to be placed in another, non-adjacent space.

  • Caladen's Crossing (HoB): "While on the Bridge, heroes may spend 1 movement  point to jump. Each time a hero does, place chat hero figure adjacent to the vantage point."
  • Saradyn in Flames (HoB): "A figure adjacent to a puzzle-cut edge that is not connected to another rile may spend 1 movement point to fall off the edge."
  • Rite of the Red Dawn (HoB): A figure on the Entrance may spend 1 movement point to place their figure on the Secret Path. A figure on the Secret Path may spend 1 movement point to place their figure on the Entrance.
  • Army of Dal'Zhunm (HoB): "Tyrus may spend  movement points to do the following: 1 movement point: Reveal 1 adjacent objective token. 2 movement points: Place 1 adjacent faceup objective token on the Hero sheet of a hero within 3 spaces of Tyrus. 2 movement points: If Tyrus is on a unique space, 
  • place him on the other unique space of the same color.
  • Pilgrimage (LoR): "In addition, while this guardian is active, a hero adjacent co chis guardian can spend 2 movement points to place his figure on the Entrance."
  • Shattered Schemes (MoB): "A figure on a glass tunnel may spend 1 movement point to place his figure in the closest empty space to any other glass tunnel."
  • Juliden's Keep (MoB): "Shadowkeeper Juliden may spend 1 movement point while on any facedown objective token or the faceup green objective token to place her token in any empty space on the Upper Stair. Shadowkeeper Juliden may spend 1 movement point on the Upper Stair to place her token on a facedown objective token or the revealed green objective token. In either case, if there is no empty space, place her token in the closest empty space."

4. Quest rules that allow figures to move to another space "as if spaces were adjacent".

  • Monster's Hoard (TSR): "The objective tokens are glyphs of transport. A figure standing on a glyph of transport may move to any other glyph in his line of sight as if it were adjacent."

I guess there are more of those, but difficult to search for.

5. Quest rules that allow figures to spend movement points to do something special.

  • Shadowfall Mountain (TSR): "A champion may spend I movement point to pick up an adjacent scone slab."
  • Archive of Arrizon (HoB): "Rolok may spend 2 movement points while adjacent to the boulder to move the boulder 1 space." 
  • Rise of Urthko (HoB): "Lord Merrick may spend 1 movement point to throw the captive into the pit"
  • Dead or Drowning (HoB): "A zombie may spend 1 movement point to contaminate an adjacent refugee."
    Army of Dal'Zhunm (HoB): "Tyrus may spend  movement points to do the following: 1 movement point: Reveal 1 adjacent objective token. 2 movement points: Place 1 adjacent faceup objective token on the Hero sheet of a hero within 3 spaces of Tyrus. 2 movement points: If Tyrus is on a unique space,  place him on the other unique space of the same color.
  • Fortune and Glory (LoR): "ln addition, a hero may spend 1 movement point to drop the prisoner in his space."
  • My House, my Rules (MoR): "While  adjacent to a door chat is not locked, a hero may spend 1 movement point to test an attribute of the overlord's choice.
  • Prey (SoN): "While adjacent to an iron snare, a hero may spend 1 movement point to pick it up."
Edited by Sadgit

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My position on MP spending sometimes leading to interrupts has less to do with the spending of the MP and more what happens as a result. Essentially, my stance is that interrupting movement occurs when you do something during a movement other than continue moving (I'm using a slightly looser definition of "move" here than usual, akin to Syndrael's hero ability). Categories 2-4 are not inerruptions. Category 5, mostly yes (though I might regroup a little).

In "Army..." Tyrus can move between unique spaces, for example.

"My House..." is weird too because the movement continues after the test- test just determines to where.

Consider that trading items between heroes is an interrupt (you can't do it while sharing a space with that hero) yet there is no cost associated with it.

 

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I feel I need to explain my thought processes as it pertains to the statement "moving off of the map is possible with abilities and affects that do not grant movement points".

First, I want to make it clear that I am responding solely to the edge case of what occurs when the OL plays Grease Trap on a hero that is moving in the direction of, and enters an empty space of an exit tile.  At no time did I discuss, or mention that I felt this way about all scenarios/abilities/affects other than Grease Trap.  Quite frankly, I haven't considered all such possibilities at all.

Despite your cogent arguments, I still feel thematically that the use of Grease Trap would move the hero off of the map; it is not the hero spending the movement points, but the OL moving the hero 3 spaces in the direction the hero was already moving. 

While it is entirely possible that I am wrong (wouldn't be the first time or the last), it is at least equally possible that I am not. After all, FFG's wording for their rules, quest rules, card text, ability text, etc. leave much to be desired.

There have been way, way too many times that people have insisted that they were correct, when if fact, it was officially ruled differently.  That is FFG's model after all, contradicting themselves.

For those of you who have been along for the D2e ride from the very beginning, all you have to do is go back and remember the threads and flame wars about how STUN works, and you will understand where I am coming from.

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I am sorry if I came across as if I was implying that I think that your view is wrong. I am actually not sure. 

I was just hoping that someone would come up with a rule or FFG-backed example that would have clarified this question. As we all know that FFG is not regularly answering support questions on Descent anymore, I felt that this would we our only chance. Unfortunately, it seems that this (very basic) question is not appropriately addressed by the current rule set. As is the question if spending movement point to do other things than actually moving to an adjacent space is considered an interrupt. Too bad.

   

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2 hours ago, Sadgit said:

I am sorry if I came across as if I was implying that I think that your view is wrong. I am actually not sure. 

I was just hoping that someone would come up with a rule or FFG-backed example that would have clarified this question. As we all know that FFG is not regularly answering support questions on Descent anymore, I felt that this would we our only chance. Unfortunately, it seems that this (very basic) question is not appropriately addressed by the current rule set. As is the question if spending movement point to do other things than actually moving to an adjacent space is considered an interrupt. Too bad.

   

No worries.  I was neither offended, nor did I think you were necessarily stating that I was wrong.  I simply wanted to point out, as it applied to your post above which tallied the vote, that my comments were only meant to apply to Grease Trap specifically.

Quite frankly, I think it should NOT move a hero off of the map (the use of Grease Trap). I simply think that there is a possibility that it may (given other contradictions that exist within this game), and I have played it that way in the past to avoid needless and endless, arguments.

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