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Reinforce token

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not really

I keep pushing this point, but I really like the idea so I'm going to continue doing so

the TIE Interdictor in fluff exists to plow through fortified emplacements that Star Destroyers can't reach (sorry, lord Vader, but asteroids do concern me). As such, you have to imagine them just strong-arming through anti-squadron emplacements to deliver their payload

as such, they just need an "effective" reinforce token in the front, I.E "when defending, if the attacker is in your firing arc at range 1-3, add an EVADE result to your roll)

because they'd be heavily armored/shielded from the front, not so much in the back where that big, juicy buttocks of an engine system is located

this would also encourage good play, as it'd make the punisher difficult to engage from the front but easily taken apart if you can get around it. It'd also be ******* awesome because you could totally Rideof the Valkyries as your trajectory simulator punishers steamroll through your opponent's defenses 


and I hope they do this ASAP because I miss my best bro, Deathrain :(

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Edited by ficklegreendice

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In my opinion, Rienforce should never have existed for any non-Huge ships.

Even if Reinforce ships are routinely beatable in the top meta, they disproportionately shape the meta because only things that spike damage can bring them down.  Could you imagine a swarm of 2-Attack ships going against stuff with Reinforce?  Those reinforce tokens can suddenly be worth 8 Evade Tokens, and 2-Attack ships have to roll perfectly, the Auzituck has to blank on defense, all to get 1 Damage Through (at R2).  It's worse at R3 or obstructed, of course, though gets a little better at R1.

Granted there are plenty of other reasons 2-Attack ships don't see much play, but Reinforce just throws more fuel onto that fire.  Since a Reinforce token's value rapidly increases the more attacks an opponent's squad makes each round.  It's a real Rock-Paper-Scissors sort of mechanic.  So, rather than see more things gain Reinforce, I'd rather Reinforce remain as rare as possible lest swarms become even more useless.

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to be absolutely fair, 2-attack ships were kind of worthless WELL before reinforce (****, fat han was already nigh untouchable in his time)

there's a reason only Crackswarm managed to make a resurgence wave 7, NOT your typical TIE swarm (hint: the reason was crackshot)

if you got rid of reinforce, 2 dice primaries will still be worthless against Poe, Luke (when he gets buffed), LW asajj, autothruster aces...

not to mention how red dice creep utterly demolishes any piddly 2-die ship in existence, unless we're talking about a jm5k which is a bit more than just a 2-die primary

so meh, bring on the reinforce. It's a great mechanic that forgoes the fickle nature of green dice in favor of honest to god positioning and player interaction

Just make it easier to get around (ala my wish for the punisher). I do think Wookie reinforce should have been forward only, makes more sense

Edited by ficklegreendice

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3 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

if you got rid of reinforce, 2 dice primaries will still be worthless against Poe, Luke (when he gets buffed), LW asajj, autothruster aces...


I of course agree, but if Reinforce became more prominent, the game would basically be doubling-down on 2-Attack Swarm ships being forever worthless. 

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eh, I'd agree with that insofar as we're talking about the "normal" reinforce

swx64-reference-reinforce.png

though I'm pretty sure we'll only ever see this on 180-arc ships, otherwise the reinforce mechanic becomes really lopsided and wonky

if it's just a reinforce within an 80-degree arc, though, I have to say I'm all for it. TIE fighters were always better at blind-siding the enemy and stabbing them in the back in addition to just overpowering enemies with numbers (you know, typical "bad guy tactics"). I think that'd enforce a far more interesting level of gameplay than what we currently have

I also believe TIE fighters with 3+agility (sorry, SFs) should get free Outmanuever for the same reason

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1 hour ago, librarian101 said:

Reinforce is built for the B-Wing

 

21 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

eh, I'd agree with that insofar as we're talking about the "normal" reinforce

swx64-reference-reinforce.png

though I'm pretty sure we'll only ever see this on 180-arc ships, otherwise the reinforce mechanic becomes really lopsided and wonky

if it's just a reinforce within an 80-degree arc, though, I have to say I'm all for it. TIE fighters were always better at blind-siding the enemy and stabbing them in the back in addition to just overpowering enemies with numbers (you know, typical "bad guy tactics"). I think that'd enforce a far more interesting level of gameplay than what we currently have

I also believe TIE fighters with 3+agility (sorry, SFs) should get free Outmanuever for the same reason

I like the idea of reinforce for the TIE Punisher and B-Wing, but with the front arc only. I don't see how it would get all that wonky: the protectorate title almost does this exact same effect, but with an additional qualifier.

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9 minutes ago, Yakostovian said:

 

I like the idea of reinforce for the TIE Punisher and B-Wing, but with the front arc only. I don't see how it would get all that wonky: the protectorate title almost does this exact same effect, but with an additional qualifier.

it's wonky if you allow both reinFOREce and REARenforce

ie what the Wookie has

because if you take a B-wing and you enforce the fore you get 80-degrees of coverage. If you enforce the rear, you get 280 degrees

if it's in arc only, then it's absolutely perfect

note, I don't believe they should be actions as those two ships need help. But, in the future, I'd rather see fore-only reinforce actions

Edited by ficklegreendice

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1 minute ago, ficklegreendice said:

it's wonky if you allow both reinFOREce and REARenforce

ie what the Wookie has

because if you take a B-wing and you enforce the fore you get 80-degrees of coverage. If you enforce the rear, you get 280 degrees

if it's in arc only, then it's absolutely perfect

note, I don't believe they should be actions as those two ships need help. But, in the future, I'd rather see fore-only reinforce actions

Are you against the wookie ship having the option for either, or does it somehow have both in the same turn? Having yet to fly with or against one, I have no basis upon which to judge. From my outsider looking in (as far as the Auzituck is concerned) it looks to be only a tad more useful than R2-F2.

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the option for either is a little annoying. Auzzies can't have both sides reinforced at the same time, but I'd rather them not be able to block shots from opponents that manage to get behind them. It's a bit much for a poor TIE to deal with :(

as for reinforce being more useful than r2-f2, that's a massive understatement. Reinforce adds a guaranteed evade (contrast with the guaranteed 0 evades a green dice gives) to every incoming attack, so it's already infinetly more value. It's also built into the ship, costing no additional points nor upgrade slots that can fit FAR superior options

think of it as the Auzzie gets one more hull/shield every time it's attacked. that scales up real fast

Edited by ficklegreendice

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2 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

the option for either is a little annoying. Auzzies can't have both sides reinforced at the same time, but I'd rather them not be able to block shots from opponents that manage to get behind them. It's a bit much for a poor TIE to deal with :(

as for reinforce being more useful than r2-f2, that's a massive understatement. Reinforce adds a guaranteed evade (contrast with the guaranteed 0 evades a green dice gives) to every incoming attack, so it's already infinetly more value. It's also built into the ship, costing no additional points nor upgrade slots that can fit FAR superior options

think of it as the Auzzie gets one more hull/shield every time it's attacked. that scales up real fast

That's not quite right.

R2-F2 costs an action, and so does Reinforce. (Wash)

R2-F2 adds an extra chance of an evade against each attack from any direction, and Reinforce adds an evade against each attack on half the ship. (slight advantage: Auzituck)

R2-F2 costs 3 squad points, and goes in a slot that is in high demand on the few ships that could equip it, while reinforce is built in to the Auzituck. (EDGE: Auzituck.)

Maybe I'm undervaluing the guaranteed evade on half of all attacks against 1 side of the ship, but I disagree that 1 extra hull/shield per attack is the same math as ignore 1 hit every time.

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21 minutes ago, Yakostovian said:

but I disagree that 1 extra hull/shield per attack is the same math as ignore 1 hit every time.

I don’t think you can. They are equivalent, except in cases of overkill. 

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2 hours ago, Yakostovian said:

That's not quite right.

R2-F2 costs an action, and so does Reinforce. (Wash)

R2-F2 adds an extra chance of an evade against each attack from any direction, and Reinforce adds an evade against each attack on half the ship. (slight advantage: Auzituck)

R2-F2 costs 3 squad points, and goes in a slot that is in high demand on the few ships that could equip it, while reinforce is built in to the Auzituck. (EDGE: Auzituck.)

Maybe I'm undervaluing the guaranteed evade on half of all attacks against 1 side of the ship, but I disagree that 1 extra hull/shield per attack is the same math as ignore 1 hit every time.

Couple things

1) That bolded point is big- R2-F2 makes ships that are already inefficient (remember, the most efficient jousting ship with an astromech is the T-65*, which was outclassed by the Tie Fighter on launch!) even more expensive. And you're still getting a weaker version of reinforce

2) It's pretty easy to keep a ship in the Wookiee Gunships front arc, especially when there are multiple azitucks working together. The small base and white two-turn make a world of difference compared to the YV-666's large base and reliance on a 3-turn. An Azituck turning around actually has a pretty small blind spot. And if you know the enemy is going to stay in it, well, then you reinforce the rear and act as bait so the rest of the squad can focus on what's chasing you. I'm not saying you can't dodge an Azituck's arc if you need to. But it requires considerably more investment than most ships

3) The Azituck has cheap access to action-economy improving upgrades, so the opportunity cost of using reinforce is a lot lower. At 1 point, wookiee commandos allow you to spam them and average 1.875 damage an attack while still. Or you can take predator/expertise, which raise your expected damage level higher and leave crew slots open for tactican, so you can stress people.

It really is very strong, especially when paired with Lowhrick's Biggs 2.0 factor or spammed.

*Technically, Major Juggler has pointed out that flown well, Corran actually achieves a very high jousting value. But that's double-tap+regeneration craziness.

 

Edited by Squark

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1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

to be absolutely fair, 2-attack ships were kind of worthless WELL before reinforce (****, fat han was already nigh untouchable in his time)

Just a reminder.  Back in the day, swarms were considered the counter to Fat Han because multiple attacks blunt the effectiveness of an evade token or 3PO or other one-off defensive shenanigans.  Reinforce is a problematic for many reasons.  One of the biggest is that a reinforce token is effective against almost every match-up.  You can't juke it, you can't jam it, you can't overwhelm it with lots of attacks.  Even Crackshot isn't very effective because they get to add the evade to all the follow-up attacks.

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Swarms were pretty wrongfully considered to be the counter to fat Han

In addition to being eaten alive by phantoms, it was far easier for the far more manueverable, durable and expensive yt1300 to derp around picking off TIEs and running until time was called than for the swarm to mow Han down. Being completely impervious to damage from one ship and needing about 3 to get any reliable hits in made things an "easier said than done" prospect

Heaver was the one who actually found the fat Han counter, which was four Z's and... fatter Han 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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41 minutes ago, Squark said:

Couple things

1) That bolded point is big- R2-F2 makes ships that are already inefficient (remember, the most efficient ship with an astromech is the T-65*, which was outclassed by the Tie Fighter on launch!) even more expensive. And you're still getting a weaker version of reinforce

2) It's pretty easy to keep a ship in the Wookiee Gunships front arc, especially when there are multiple azitucks working together. The small base and white two-turn make a world of difference compared to the YV-666's large base and reliance on a 3-turn. An Azituck turning around actually has a pretty small blind spot. And if you know the enemy is going to stay in it, well, then you reinforce the rear and act as bait so the rest of the squad can focus on what's chasing you. I'm not saying you can't dodge an Azituck's arc if you need to. But it requires considerably more investment than most ships

3) The Azituck has cheap access to action-economy improving upgrades, so the opportunity cost of using reinforce is a lot lower. At 1 point, wookiee commandos allow you to spam them and average 1.875 damage an attack while still. Or you can take predator/expertise, which raise your expected damage level higher and leave crew slots open for tactican, so you can stress people.

It really is very strong, especially when paired with Lowhrick's Biggs 2.0 factor or spammed.

*Technically, Major Juggler has pointed out that flown well, Corran actually achieves a very high jousting value. But that's double-tap+regeneration craziness.

 

Isn't the T-70 better? 

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57 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

Isn't the T-70 better? 

Sort of. I probably should have specified that I was talking about jousting efficiency, which does favor the T-65 (An extra shield is not worth 3 points on a ship like the X-wing). The implication of being less jousting efficient is that you need to make up for that in other ways (Getting shots more often than a jousters would like a turret, or dodging arcs and taking less fire); boost, tallon roll, and the tech slot can help with that.

As for which is better... Rookie Pilots probably outclass Blue Squadron Novices these days due to their superior efficiency combined with Flight Assist Astromech making the maneuverability difference minimal. Competitively, though, turrets and arc Dodgers have crowded out jousters that don't rely on alpha strikes, so Point fortressing becomes more important, and Poe is the standout X-wing Pilot there. The other X-wing Pilot to see play is Jess, whose ability massively increases her efficiency if your list likes flying in formation anyway. So to clarify, the T-65 is the most efficient jousting chassis with an Astromech slot (discounting Corran's insanity). But that's kind of diverging from the original point of the thread.

Edited by Squark

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I've been toying with the idea of having all attacks against the non-reinforced section ignore shields. This would seem to be consistent with the practice of shunting power to specific areas of shielding at the expense of others. There is more of a tradeoff for the benefit.

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