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Babaganoosh

[Poll] Do you enjoy X-wing?

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The last question was leading and the answers improperly worded. 

 

Do you enjoy X-wing more, or less than you used to?
-I used to enjoy X-wing more in the past
 
-I enjoy the game more the way it is now, compared to the way the game used to be
 
 
The wording of the question is suggesting for the test taker to say “more” now.  
 
The wording of the frist question implies you are unhappy now, therefore must answer with the other option.  
 
Also, these answers do not allow for newer player responses.  Maybe give a time frame, like which wave was the game balanced. 
 
 
 

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24 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

Also, these answers do not allow for newer player responses.  Maybe give a time frame, like which wave was the game balanced. 

 

That was a problem I had as well.  As a newer player, I have no real frame of reference for "more or less" fun than it used to be. 

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29 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

The last question was leading and the answers improperly worded. 

 

Do you enjoy X-wing more, or less than you used to?
-I used to enjoy X-wing more in the past
 
-I enjoy the game more the way it is now, compared to the way the game used to be
 
 
The wording of the question is suggesting for the test taker to say “more” now.  
 
The wording of the frist question implies you are unhappy now, therefore must answer with the other option.  
 
Also, these answers do not allow for newer player responses.  Maybe give a time frame, like which wave was the game balanced. 
 
 
 

I get that the last question is problematic.  I don't want to change it at this point because that would be changing people's answers retroactively, though. Thanks for the input!

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The game used to be amazing around wave 3.  New designers came along and effed it up (i.e. wave 4 & 5).  They tried to fix their mistakes for waves 6 & 7 (it got much better), but then effed it up again from waves 8 and on.

The core of the game is amazing.  One of the best games ever designed, imho.  But there are basically three inherent problems:

1) the amount of 'design space' is limited, and the game designers don't have the wherewithal to work carefully within the limitations.  Thus we see lots of 'broken' cards and tons of power creep despite the designers claiming they don't intend to release such things (if they understood the game better, this sort of thing would not happen with every single **** new wave).

2) the original game designer, who had a very strong knowledge of the game, its limitations and how to keep it balanced is no longer part of the team.  The replacements, while technically more experienced now, do not have a very good understanding of key concepts (like the underlying math, the importance of random elements to enhance skillful decision-making and most importantly the need for low, mid and high pilot skill ships to all be competitively viable to create a 'balanced' play environment).  Add to this the fact that they are basically over-worked with having to design other games means that X-wing has become a bit of a 'train-wreck' in terms of well-thought and carefully play-tested new releases (since wave 8 to now, not a single wave has been a 'good' release; and by that I mean, not without egregious power creep).

3) Asmodee doesn't care about the 'health' of the game.  They want their money and they want it at regular intervals so they've forced FFG to cut its play-testing window in half to accomodate an aggressive new wave release cycle that just makes it impossible for the designers to release properly play-tested stuff.  

So all of these things together mean that the game is slowly going down the toilet.  Its still fun when you aren't facing stuff that is stupidly broken and turns an otherwise skill-based experience into basically playing yahtzee with space ships.

Of course, everyone's idea of 'fun' is different.  But the game is definitely less skill-based then it used to be.  I think a lot of people don't mind though, because they are/were average players, but its easy now to take a 'net list' to the tournament and finish high with it, whereas in the best years of the game, it was simply not possible to get away with something like that...

Edited by blade_mercurial

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2 hours ago, blade_mercurial said:

The game used to be amazing around wave 3.  New designers came along and effed it up (i.e. wave 4 & 5).  They tried to fix their mistakes for waves 6 & 7 (it got much better), but then effed it up again from waves 8 and on.

The core of the game is amazing.  One of the best games ever designed, imho.  But there are basically three inherent problems:

1) the amount of 'design space' is limited, and the game designers don't have the wherewithal to work carefully within the limitations.  Thus we see lots of 'broken' cards and tons of power creep despite the designers claiming they don't intend to release such things (if they understood the game better, this sort of thing would not happen with every single **** new wave).

2) the original game designer, who had a very strong knowledge of the game, its limitations and how to keep it balanced is no longer part of the team.  The replacements, while technically more experienced now, do not have a very good understanding of key concepts (like the underlying math, the importance of random elements to enhance skillful decision-making and most importantly the need for low, mid and high pilot skill ships to all be competitively viable to create a 'balanced' play environment).  Add to this the fact that they are basically over-worked with having to design other games means that X-wing has become a bit of a 'train-wreck' in terms of well-thought and carefully play-tested new releases (since wave 8 to now, not a single wave has been a 'good' release; and by that I mean, not without egregious power creep).

3) Asmodee doesn't care about the 'health' of the game.  They want their money and they want it at regular intervals so they've forced FFG to cut its play-testing window in half to accomodate an aggressive new wave release cycle that just makes it impossible for the designers to release properly play-tested stuff.  

So all of these things together mean that the game is slowly going down the toilet.  Its still fun when you aren't facing stuff that is stupidly broken and turns an otherwise skill-based experience into basically playing yahtzee with space ships.

Of course, everyone's idea of 'fun' is different.  But the game is definitely less skill-based then it used to be.  I think a lot of people don't mind though, because they are/were average players, but its easy now to take a 'net list' to the tournament and finish high with it, whereas in the best years of the game, it was simply not possible to get away with something like that...

Everything about this statement is practically wrong... 

My counterpoint: They know precisely what they are doing, and they are producing the game the makes the most money, and keeps everything fresh. 

One is even tempted to say:

"Everything that has transpired has done so acording to FFGs design"

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2 hours ago, blade_mercurial said:

2) the original game designer, who had a very strong knowledge of the game, its limitations and how to keep it balanced is no longer part of the team.  The replacements, while technically more experienced now, do not have a very good understanding of key concepts (like the underlying math, the importance of random elements to enhance skillful decision-making and most importantly the need for low, mid and high pilot skill ships to all be competitively viable to create a 'balanced' play environment). 


I assume you're talking about Jay Little, the original designer who didn't even anticipate X-Wing becoming a competitive game like it is now?  And in what fairy-tale world are you living where Wave 1 was balanced?  TIE Swarms dominated everything in the early days, and the TIE Swarm vs TIE Swarm mirror match was a fairly miserable exercise in rolling piles of dice.  Rebel ships had no chance against the TIE Swarm early on, let's not forget, and heck even through Wave 3 everyone complained that there was almost no reason to use upgrades, and the community was begging for FFG to make upgrades and unique ships (other than Biggs/Howl) usable.  Speaking of Wave 1, let's not forget that Howlrunner and Biggs Darklighter hold nominations for the most insanely broken pilots in the game (relative to their time periods of usefulness).  Howlrunner was a beyond auto-include that boosted your attack power incredibly.  Biggs had one of the most design-constraining and game-altering abilities the game has ever seen.  So forgive me if I find your nostalgia a bit rosy-colored and inaccurate.

I mean, in my heart-of-hearts, I kind of think X-Wing has always been a jacked-up competitive game.  There was always been dominant lists and NPE archetypes in all the various Waves (TIE Swarm, Dual Falcons, TIE Phantoms, Fat Han, ... etc ... etc ...).  The game has always had pilot abilities or upgrades that have been clearly garbage or obviously auto-include.  The T65, outside of Biggs, has never ever been a competitively capable ship, even going all the way back to Wave 1 where Howl-Swarm ate it alive.   The difference, however, is that back in the old days the game was new and fresh and exciting and unlike most other things out there, the community was upbeat, and people generally weren't dissecting the game to death so the illusions of it being a healthier game could live a lot longer in our minds.  I'm not necessarily saying that X-Wing is a "solved game" now, but it was sure as poodoo a much less solved and open-book game back then.  People were having fun drooling at beautiful pre-painted Star Wars ships and trying to learn how to visualize a 3-Turn in their heads.  Now we have forums and hundreds of tournaments and dozens of podcasts to pick everything apart, and we've been doing it for 5 Years so we're pretty attuned now.  We also probably have different expectations about what balance meant, so back in the really olden days there were only 4 Kinds of ships... a ton of mirror matches and similar lists didn't bother us in the way it does now where there are over 50 Ships to choose.

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3 hours ago, blade_mercurial said:

3) Asmodee doesn't care about the 'health' of the game.  They want their money and they want it at regular intervals so they've forced FFG to cut its play-testing window in half to accomodate an aggressive new wave release cycle that just makes it impossible for the designers to release properly play-tested stuff.

wrong-wrong-wrong-wrong-wrong-wrong-wron
^ added some cox for dramatic effect because the bias in point 2 required it ^

We're like 4 months into the year; i see no new ships.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,CCGs now that's aggressive. **** even GW with the new Shadespire has been more aggressive with releases up to press. 

And a simple google search of the following; "Shadespire release dates", "Magic new set release dates", "Pokemon new set release dates", will provide you with the perspective point 3 requires. 

**** even some of FFG LCGs have got more aggressive releases of one per month. Since AllWingsStandyingBy got point 2 i'll leave someone else to tackle 1.

Links; 

https://magic.wizards.com/en/products/coming-soon

https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-tcg/trading-card-expansions/

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/01/shadespire-october-releases-confirmed-oct1gw-homepage-post-1/ <- Shadesspire is harder but that game came out in Oct 2017 and had a core, 3 waves with 6 Factions getting added in 6 months. 

 

Edited by the1hodgy

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Don’t like the last question - there is no third option of “same”.

I don’t know how we are defining “then” and “now” for xwing, so I said I’m having more fun now than before because to me “before” was when I was just seeing the game existed.

This year, I went to ffg Game Center Regionals, Adepticon System Open, and CAC. Had a blast at them all!

Having fun doing a HotAC with some coworkers too.

And I can’t wait for summer when TCX sports their epic league!

I just like all the formats for different reasons, and don’t care for all the negativity. Problem squad combos inevitably get nerfed eventually. 

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38 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It is once more fascinating how many posters attack the OP for wording.

I'm taking those comments more as constructive criticism than attacks. If someone's really upset, that sounds like a personal problem to me, haha.  My goal for this poll is to gather more insight into what people around here think than what you would normally get out of the back-and-forth that usually accumulates on the "X-wing is dying/thriving" threads. There's plenty of room for improvement in the poll questions, I'm sure.

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I'm not answering binary questions, because it actually is more complicated than that.

My oldest son and I started playing in late 2015 and until mid 2017, we'd get in 2-3 weekday nights games, and 1 or 2 game for every weekend day. Plus a monthly tournament. Now, we get maybe 1 or 2 games in per week, and still a monthly tournament. The monthly tournament would have mostly fallen off our map were it not for the fact that I had to take over as TO to ensure that someone was running events locally.

I generally enjoy playing X-wing. I dread having to go and play X-wing. The dread stems both from the game itself as it does the players.

<deleted wall of text>

tl;dr As Stay on Target recently pointed out, some players' behaviour towards non "adult male" players has slipped considerably in the last few years. Combining a borderline broken game with players willing to do whatever to win leads to a potentially toxic environment for my son. I choose to minimize his exposure to that mess. I am sick of explaining "some people just can't imagine losing to <x>".

In a dream world, where I get to pick who shows up, I'd still love X-wing. As it is, I try to convince myself that good mechanics are enough.

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3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

It is once more fascinating how many posters attack the OP for wording.

Well, no one was "attacking" the OP, for starters.  It's also worth noting that with polls it's especially important to be meticulous with one's language, otherwise the results from them don't mean anything whatsoever.  I mean, if people can't be picky and precise about language when it comes to poll questions and options, they we might as well just abandon language all together and revert to grunts and snorts and growls and whines.

For instance, the final question asks (in a semi-leading way) "do you enjoy X-Wing more or less now?" This leaves no option for those who genuinely aren't sure or who feel like they like it about the same.  It also isn't contextualized at all with the reference "than you used to," which could mean anything.  One wave ago, one tournament ago, one year ago, five years ago.  To even begin to get a comparative insight here, you'd need to ask something like "do you enjoy 100/6 games of X-Wing more than when you started playing?" with options like:

[] -- I'm not sure
[] -- I like it about the same now as then
[] -- I liked it more when I started playing
[] -- I like it more now than when I started playing

and then you'd need to collect a bit of demographic info from respondents (eg, "roughly what wave did you start playing X-Wing?") so that responses from those who have been playing for five years could be differentiated from those who have been playing for five days, for instance.

Edited by AllWingsStandyingBy

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6 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:


I assume you're talking about Jay Little, the original designer who didn't even anticipate X-Wing becoming a competitive game like it is now?  And in what fairy-tale world are you living where Wave 1 was balanced?  TIE Swarms dominated everything in the early days, and the TIE Swarm vs TIE Swarm mirror match was a fairly miserable exercise in rolling piles of dice.  Rebel ships had no chance against the TIE Swarm early on, let's not forget, and heck even through Wave 3 everyone complained that there was almost no reason to use upgrades, and the community was begging for FFG to make upgrades and unique ships (other than Biggs/Howl) usable.  Speaking of Wave 1, let's not forget that Howlrunner and Biggs Darklighter hold nominations for the most insanely broken pilots in the game (relative to their time periods of usefulness).  Howlrunner was a beyond auto-include that boosted your attack power incredibly.  Biggs had one of the most design-constraining and game-altering abilities the game has ever seen.  So forgive me if I find your nostalgia a bit rosy-colored and inaccurate.
 

I don't know why you are talking about wave 1.  I never mentioned it.  I specifically said wave 3.

But your comments are  not even remotely true.  TIE swarm was a strong list, no question, but it didn't 'dominate' the meta.  Not in the sense that things like Dengaroo, Fairship Rebels and similar lists have done so in more recent waves.  Not even a little bit similar.  There were plenty of lists that could do well against it, including all X-wings!  Wedge, Luke & Biggs could beat it, as could triple HLC b-wings and of course let's not forget Biggs walks the Daggs.  And imperials had options against it too (a couple sabre squadron pilots were very strong against swarms, for example, but so was Krassis Trellix and even a 'buzzsaw shuttle' could work).  The big difference though is that you didn't lose the game because of a bad matchup.  There were no matchups so bad that you didn't have a fighting chance because you could always possibly outfly your opponent because maneuvers, arcs and action choice were much more critical to success.

Also, saying Howlrunner and Biggs were insanely broken back then is ridiculous.  Howlrunner has 3 hull.  Not hard to kill!  Not even back in the day was she a difficult ship to destroy...

And Biggs only became 'broken' in conjunction with card combos.  Biggs didn't break the game by himself.  The very badly designed and poorly play-tested Wookiee Gunship is the main culprit (with its reinforce token, introduction of selflessness and Lowrick's pilot ability).

 

Quote

I mean, in my heart-of-hearts, I kind of think X-Wing has always been a jacked-up competitive game.  There was always been dominant lists and NPE archetypes in all the various Waves (TIE Swarm, Dual Falcons, TIE Phantoms, Fat Han, ... etc ... etc ...).  The game has always had pilot abilities or upgrades that have been clearly garbage or obviously auto-include.  The T65, outside of Biggs, has never ever been a competitively capable ship, even going all the way back to Wave 1 where Howl-Swarm ate it alive.   The difference, however, is that back in the old days the game was new and fresh and exciting and unlike most other things out there, the community was upbeat, and people generally weren't dissecting the game to death so the illusions of it being a healthier game could live a lot longer in our minds.  I'm not necessarily saying that X-Wing is a "solved game" now, but it was sure as poodoo a much less solved and open-book game back then.  People were having fun drooling at beautiful pre-painted Star Wars ships and trying to learn how to visualize a 3-Turn in their heads.  Now we have forums and hundreds of tournaments and dozens of podcasts to pick everything apart, and we've been doing it for 5 Years so we're pretty attuned now.  We also probably have different expectations about what balance meant, so back in the really olden days there were only 4 Kinds of ships... a ton of mirror matches and similar lists didn't bother us in the way it does now where there are over 50 Ships to choose.

This is also a grossly innacurate assumption.  There was a strong community back then doing everything that gets done now.  The only difference is that it was smaller then because the game has grown quite a lot since then.  But these forums were actually much better in those days, because you could get some intelligent (and polite) conversations with seemingly decent people.  Alas, it is no longer the case...

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8 hours ago, blade_mercurial said:

But these forums were actually much better in those days, because you could get some intelligent (and polite) conversations with seemingly decent people.  Alas, it is no longer the case...

Urgh, right in the irony gland. 

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