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Xwing is suffering despite what the clickbaiters say

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Rebels characters (General Syndulla, Chopper) and ship (the Ghost) were in Rogue One if you are going to be a movie stickler.

A large amount of content was added from Rebels and it will continue to be a source of canon content. Filoni has also had his third animated series green-lit by Disney, so he will continue to be a source of canon content for the Star Wars universe. People who keep turning a side glance at Rebels or The Clone Wars need to get over it, as it is canon material and you are about to get more of the same.  It aint EU.

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It is about as EU as the Clone Wars was, which was considered EU. 

 

I feel like you guys glossed over some terms I was using. I admitted that you are technically right, but that doesn't mean most people agree with that assessment. 


And... you know... 2 seconds of screen time is ain't a lot. I wouldn't blame someone who missed them in R1... You pretty much had to look for it. 

 

You can keep saying that "BUT IT IS CONSIDERED A PRIMARY SOURCE", and I agree.  By Disney. But what most people consider the primary sources, are the feature films. 

 

Rebels gets ignored, because it is a mediocre children's show, with low grade animation, and bad writing with no real possibility of danger, that sets up the villains to be even less capable than they were in the OT, or even TLJ. 

 

It might be canon, but many people understandably don't care for it. And you know... I didn't mention how it wasn't canon. I said it isn't recognizeable for many, and you guys should be able to understand their side as well. 

Edited by Commander Kaine

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I’ve gotten lost somewhere along the way.  Is the problem that there are unfun interactions that reduce the skill level needed to compete at the top levels of competitive play, or at least require said players to take a similar list to avoid getting creamed by (as famously stated by PGS) a kid smearing ice cream on his face?

Or is the problem that these abilities are found on ships that you personally do not like from a show that you personally did not enjoy?

If it’s the first one, let’s have a discussion.

If it’s the later, then what we have is a disagreement about aesthetics and should be kept good natured and light, because the alternative starts dipping into debates over what content is “Star Wars-y enough” for you.  And that argument gets bad quickly, and ultimately results in one party or another asserting that their view of “what is Star Wars” is better and more correct.  That is an inherently subjective opinion.

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8 minutes ago, Commander Kaine said:

It is about as EU as the Clone Wars was, which was considered EU. 

 

I feel like you guys glossed over some terms I was using. I admitted that you are technically right, but that doesn't mean most people agree with that assessment. 


And... you know... 2 seconds of screen time is ain't a lot. I wouldn't blame someone who missed them in R1... You pretty much had to look for it. 

 

You can keep saying that "BUT IT IS CONSIDERED A PRIMARY SOURCE", and I agree.  By Disney. But what most people consider the primary sources, are the feature films. 

 

Rebels gets ignored, because it is a mediocre children's show, with low grade animation, and bad writing with no real possibility of danger, that sets up the villains to be even less capable than they were in the OT, or even TLJ. 

 

It might be canon, but many people understandably don't care for it. And you know... I didn't mention how it wasn't canon. I said it isn't recognizeable for many, and you guys should be able to understand their side as well. 

Well you can make the same argument for armada, really. Remember the big role the assault frigate mark 2 and victory class star destroyers played in ROTJ?.... oh wait, me either. Yet people seem to love that game.

I wish they’d called this game star fighter and not X-wing but that got let out of Pandora’s box along time ago. Star Wars is different to everyone really, even in the meta. And if you don’t recognize what’s being flown, well congrats you’re gonna learn something today.

This personal feeling of “not the Star Wars I remember” doesn’t really hold up. Yeah those ships should have a precence (ffg goal is to have at least one meta viable pilot for every ship) but when you look at how much EU stuff there is, it makes sense there should be more EU than movie material. 

We’re just at an unfortunately timed crossroads between the Biggs nerf and saws renegades for the T-65 to win anything major at the moment.

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39 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

I’ve gotten lost somewhere along the way.  Is the problem that there are unfun interactions that reduce the skill level needed to compete at the top levels of competitive play, or at least require said players to take a similar list to avoid getting creamed by (as famously stated by PGS) a kid smearing ice cream on his face?

Or is the problem that these abilities are found on ships that you personally do not like from a show that you personally did not enjoy?

Definitely the first, I think 'known' vs. 'unknown' ships is a silly argument, especially considering that the ship the game is named after has ALWAYS been terrible.

PGS hit this right on. Well said.

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What this thread (and it’s inverse twin) and many other threads all ultimately suffer from is lack of dialog with the designers and their management. Because there isn’t a good feedback mechanism, our poor community tends to tweak up into these painful echo chamber feedback loops.

It really is too bad, and it’s FFG’s fault for not paying for a community manager or creating and delegating to a volunteer brigade. 

 

Edited by sozin

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7 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

 It sucks that you and heychadwick have experienced a decline in casual players locally.  

It's not just casual.  It's all players.   I live in Charlotte, NC.  We still have a strong community, but even Blake (from Hornet Squadron and Sling Paint), our guy who played all the time, has quit the game indefinitely.  

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6 hours ago, heckathornjeff said:

I see this theme from people who started playing early in the life of X-Wing that the game in no way reflects how amazing a game it used to be. I have been struggling with this.  I think the game is awesome now. the sheer variety of ships , armament, crew and other upgrades makes theory crafting the game as enjoyable to me as the flying.  I love the different armament choices, and I think the variety is what makes it great currently. 

I have been playing since Wave 3, and those are rose colored glasses looking at XWM's past.

Missiles and torps were useless (trust me, I tried), no one used bombs,  there were only 2 factions, and mostly you flew naked ships/no upgrades.

Phantoms and Fat Han were "NPE", and most people still didn't use mid-range aces.

People who want to go back to "primary arc dogfighting, no upgrades" are asking for XWM to stay at a checkers-level of complexity.  The game would be dead already if "dials and dice" were all that it ever remained.

The game is awesome now.  And will get even more awesome as new SW material arrives because new choices are what keeps it fresh.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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3 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

So, while technically it is named canon, rebels is not a primary source. When people say they have unrecognizable ships, they usually mean that they weren't featured in any of the movies extensively. But I think you know that.

Well, under that standard the Ghost is still from primary source.

Rogue One is a theatrical release of Star Wars, which is a "primary source"

The A-Wing and the B-Wing were never featured extensively. So using that same standard, they would be unrecognizable ships, no?

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

I feel like you guys glossed over some terms I was using. I admitted that you are technically right, but that doesn't mean most people agree with that assessment.

Who is "most people?". Just saying "most people don't agree" doesn't make it true. This is still part of your opinion, not a fact.

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

And... you know... 2 seconds of screen time is ain't a lot. I wouldn't blame someone who missed them in R1... You pretty much had to look for it.

The same can be said for the A-Wing and the B-Wing (especially the B-Wing) in Return of the Jedi. The Ghost has about as much screen time as the A-Wing in Return of the Jedi. Definitely  has more than the B-Wing.

 

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

Rebels gets ignored, because it is a mediocre children's show, with low grade animation, and bad writing with no real possibility of danger, that sets up the villains to be even less capable than they were in the OT, or even TLJ.

Again, that's your opinion. It's fine if you hate it, no one can make you like it. But are you letting your dislike of the show affect what you consider part of the Star Wars universe?

2 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

It might be canon, but many people understandably don't care for it. And you know... I didn't mention how it wasn't canon. I said it isn't recognizeable for many, and you guys should be able to understand their side as well. 

Again, who are these "many" people?

Because I can just point to the Rebels thread here on the forums for a pretty huge amount of people that enjoy the show. Yeah, they criticize it but the underlying theme is that the people who post there enjoy the show.

With the amount of marketing behind Rebels being shown during its run time and how much we will continue to see Rebels characters and content integrated with the rest of Star Wars material, I don't see how anyone can claim stuff from Rebels is "not recognizable".

Heck, I'd put money down that characters and content from Rebels (like the Ghost) is quickly becoming as recognizable as the OT characters and content. Because it's gotten far more screen time than even the OT stuff. Far more than the ships we have in X-Wing that from an ancient PC game, an old MMO, and a few minor appearances in comics and books (*cough* K-Wing, Gunboat, E-Wing, TIE Phantom, Kimogila, TIE Aggresor, Kirhiax, M3-A *cough*)

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1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

It's not just casual.  It's all players.   I live in Charlotte, NC.  We still have a strong community, but even Blake (from Hornet Squadron and Sling Paint), our guy who played all the time, has quit the game indefinitely.  

People take hiatus for various reasons. How many regionals/competitive events has Blake done this past couple of month's? I mean there is such a thing as burnout, even with a game you love and enjoy, you just get tired of plunking down the same ships over and over. (Or fighting the same ships over and over.)

It sounds like the community as a whole is going through this kind of phase. If it doesn't pick up again after Wave 14 then I would get concerned. (Which is already somewhat concerning as that means people aren't enjoying the casual HOTAC/Mariokart/Soccer/ aspect of the game either.)

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3 hours ago, Commander Kaine said:

It is about as EU as the Clone Wars was, which was considered EU. 

 

I feel like you guys glossed over some terms I was using. I admitted that you are technically right, but that doesn't mean most people agree with that assessment. 


And... you know... 2 seconds of screen time is ain't a lot. I wouldn't blame someone who missed them in R1... You pretty much had to look for it. 

 

You can keep saying that "BUT IT IS CONSIDERED A PRIMARY SOURCE", and I agree.  By Disney. But what most people consider the primary sources, are the feature films. 

 

Rebels gets ignored, because it is a mediocre children's show, with low grade animation, and bad writing with no real possibility of danger, that sets up the villains to be even less capable than they were in the OT, or even TLJ. 

 

It might be canon, but many people understandably don't care for it. And you know... I didn't mention how it wasn't canon. I said it isn't recognizeable for many, and you guys should be able to understand their side as well. 

This is so close-minded.

We have a young player that plays locally and has been flying the ghost since its release because he identifies it as Star Wars.

Just because you don't like rebels does not mean it's not worthy of representation, star wars is a very large IP with a very diverse group of fans its extremely self-centered of you to be mad that the game tries to cater to all types of fans.

I pulled a friend into x-wing because I showed him my starviper (an extremely none "primary source" ship) but he remembered it from a video game he used to play and to him it was definitive Star Wars.

Please stop claiming "most people" agree with your views you have no idea if that's true and I strongly doubt it is. It's really easy to simply phrase your arguments as your opinions instead of trying to speak for a majority in an attempt to justify your opinions and push your agenda.

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4 minutes ago, Derpzilla88 said:

Well, under that standard the Ghost is still from primary source.

Rogue One is a theatrical release of Star Wars, which is a "primary source"

The A-Wing and the B-Wing were never featured extensively. So using that same standard, they would be unrecognizable ships, no?

Who is "most people?". Just saying "most people don't agree" doesn't make it true. This is still part of your opinion, not a fact.

The same can be said for the A-Wing and the B-Wing (especially the B-Wing) in Return of the Jedi. The Ghost has about as much screen time as the A-Wing in Return of the Jedi. Definitely  has more than the B-Wing.

 

Again, that's your opinion. It's fine if you hate it, no one can make you like it. But are you letting your dislike of the show affect what you consider part of the Star Wars universe?

Again, who are these "many" people?

Because I can just point to the Rebels thread here on the forums for a pretty huge amount of people that enjoy the show. Yeah, they criticize it but the underlying theme is that the people who post there enjoy the show.

With the amount of marketing behind Rebels being shown during its run time and how much we will continue to see Rebels characters and content integrated with the rest of Star Wars material, I don't see how anyone can claim stuff from Rebels is "not recognizable".

Heck, I'd put money down that characters and content from Rebels (like the Ghost) is quickly becoming as recognizable as the OT characters and content. Because it's gotten far more screen time than even the OT stuff. Far more than the ships we have in X-Wing that from an ancient PC game, an old MMO, and a few minor appearances in comics and books (*cough* K-Wing, Gunboat, E-Wing, TIE Phantom, Kimogila, TIE Aggresor, Kirhiax, M3-A *cough*)

1. Google the word: Extensively. 

2. Most people who complain about these issues. This is not my opinion, I'm fine with ships from the show. I like the TAP especially. In fact I want more. I was trying to get you guys understand why some people still don't treat the Ghost on the same level as the TIE Fighter. 

3. There actually quite a few snippets of space battles with A-Wings. Look again. The ghost was featured as clutter in a scene with many ships. The A-Wings destroyed the Executor. At least they had 1 important moment in a major movie. 

4. I mean... What are you questioning in that point? Is rebels a children's show? Yes. Is the animation cheap quality? Yes. Were the characters in believable danger? No, even when facing Palpatine or Darth Vader, they escaped with no scratches. In 4 seasons of crazy shenanigans, 1 main character died, and the same person was "seriously" injured once. Are the villains incapable? Yes. How many star destroyers were blown up by 1 group of rebels? Too many. 
Is this bad writing? Yes. 
There are actually guidelines and rules of storytelling, and rebels objectively fails many of these. That makes it bad writing. 

5. The many people who don't watch Rebels for the aforementioned reasons. Or are you saying that everyone (or even a majority) of X-Wing players are following up on a children's TV show. I'm talking about those who claim they don't recognize the ships. You can meet them a lot. There are many casual SW fans, who have no idea this show exists. 
Just because they have more screen time, it doesn't mean that more people saw them. I'd be pretty impressed if the number of people who watched rebels is even remotely close to the number of people who have seen the OT. The difference between those two numbers makes up the "many people". 
 

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7 minutes ago, Icelom said:

This is so close-minded.

We have a young player that plays locally and has been flying the ghost since its release because he identifies it as Star Wars.

Just because you don't like rebels does not mean it's not worthy of representation, star wars is a very large IP with a very diverse group of fans its extremely self-centered of you to be mad that the game tries to cater to all types of fans.

I pulled a friend into x-wing because I showed him my starviper (an extremely none "primary source" ship) but he remembered it from a video game he used to play and to him it was definitive Star Wars.

Please stop claiming "most people" agree with your views you have no idea if that's true and I strongly doubt it is. It's really easy to simply phrase your arguments as your opinions instead of trying to speak for a majority in an attempt to justify your opinions and push your agenda.

Again... It is not my agenda, or my opinion. I was explaining why people keep saying this. 

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I'm mad about the rebels ships. Stop arguing with this image of me that you created, and argue with the points I make. 

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1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

People who want to go back to "primary arc dogfighting, no upgrades" are asking for XWM to stay at a checkers-level of complexity.  The game would be dead already if "dials and dice" were all that it ever remained.

It’d still be a better game. Complexity does not equal depth.

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still, it does well to recognize the problems of early waves

it just has to come with perspective, aka the "FFG is bad at math" perspective that explains why the X-wing has sucked since the core set till this day

for me, the golden age of X-wing was wave 7. The horrible dark ages of the Wave 5 turrets-or-die was over, Palp aces and brobots slew the **** out of that nonsense while TLTs dug the hole. Course now you had brobots, and palp aces (and rebel regen) running amok, but you also had it where ******* Deathrain could thrive by hairballing conners all over everything

and let me tell you, there is no better game than a game with Deathrain

those were the good times, where meta dominance was clearly established and then also swept aside at worlds by the strong showing of a plucky prototype and Heaver's generic gaggle+ Poe. It was then followed by Miranda v Dengar...and then Miranda v Dengar...

 

basically, going back to wave 3 would suck because FFG can't math. I'd rather go back to wave 7, ie powerful arced ships with varying maneuverability checked by powerful control utility including a 15 point blue, ps 1 wedge that could win you games if you just flew it well enough. I'd sooner burn my entire collection than go back to Wave 5, and fortunately we don't seem to be headed in that dark direction any time soon. Still, it's a bit too turrety for my liking, and when said turrets can do everything from turret, maneuver, joust and then even bomb, it's time for some tweaking

 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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10 minutes ago, Vargas79 said:

It’d still be a better game. Complexity does not equal depth.

I would argue that X-wing has lost depth compared to some of the earlier metas.

There was a time when positioning, movement, and planning were hugely important, where you could win a game with a single well predicted block. There's still aspects of that game, but much reduced in this turret-heavy, actionless-mod, high-PS, card-combo meta.

7 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

and let me tell you, there is no better game than a game with Deathrain

I once played a game where Deathrain dropped an ion bomb and all 10 ships on the board (including Deathrain) were Ionised. The next planning phase was very quick. It was glorious.

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6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

still, it does well to recognize the problems of early waves

it just has to come with perspective, aka the "FFG is bad at math" perspective that explains why the X-wing has sucked since the core set till this day

for me, the golden age of X-wing was wave 7. The horrible dark ages of the Wave 5 turrets-or-die was over, Palp aces and brobots slew the **** out of that nonsense while TLTs dug the hole. Course now you had brobots, and palp aces (and rebel regen) running amok, but you also had it where ******* Deathrain could thrive by hairballing conners all over everything

and let me tell you, there is no better game than a game with Deathrain

those were the good times, where meta dominance was clearly established and then also swept aside at worlds by the strong showing of a plucky prototype and Heaver's generic gaggle+ Poe. It was then followed by Miranda v Dengar...and then Miranda v Dengar...

 

basically, going back to wave 3 would suck because FFG can't math. I'd rather go back to wave 7, ie powerful arced ships with varying maneuverability checked by powerful control utility including a 15 point blue, ps 1 wedge that could win you games if you just flew it well enough. I'd sooner burn my entire collection than go back to Wave 5, and fortunately we don't seem to be headed in that dark direction any time soon. Still, it's a bit too turrety for my liking, and when said turrets can do everything from turret, maneuver, joust and then even bomb, it's time for some tweaking

 

Wave 7 was fantastic. There was reasonable balance between aces, jousters and turrets. Paul Heaver winning worlds with an all comers toolbox list was a testament to the healthy state the game was in. 

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46 minutes ago, Vargas79 said:

It’d still be a better game.

In your opinion.

34 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

for me, the golden age of X-wing was wave 7. The horrible dark ages of the Wave 5 turrets-or-die was over, Palp aces and brobots slew the **** out of that nonsense while TLTs dug the hole. Course now you had brobots, and palp aces (and rebel regen) running amok, but you also had it where ******* Deathrain could thrive by hairballing conners all over everything

those were the good times, where meta dominance was clearly established and then also swept aside at worlds by the strong showing of a plucky prototype and Heaver's generic gaggle+ Poe. It was then followed by Miranda v Dengar...and then Miranda v Dengar...

I never think about this game like that.  I think about the Star Wars stories I can tell with the official components that are available.

The more parts, the more stories.  And the stuff that shreds stories stays on the shelf.

It is also the reason I never care about the provenance of a component: primary source, secondary source, EU, who cares.  It's Star Wars.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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18 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

In your opinion.

I never think about this game like that.  I think about the Star Wars stories I can tell with the official components that are available.

The more parts, the more stories.  And the stuff that shreds stories stays on the shelf.

"Star Wars Stories" is so vague it borders on meaningless

If we're talking  about "wow" moments on the table that are positive and fresh, then more parts absolutely does not always correlate to more "stories"

Nym has like ten upgrade cards on him. This used to translate into "move, trajectory, you're bombed". Riveting ****, especially given the opponent couldn't counterplay at all 

You want quality, not quantity. Quality gives variety, ability for player decision to impact the game and for "stories" to unfold from these decisions

****, it's Writing 101: Less Is More

Now if we're talking actual narratives, there's the star wars rpg. This is a miniatures game and it will attract people for the gameplay either in addition to or regardless of the brand 

Edited by ficklegreendice

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3 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I have been playing since Wave 3, and those are rose colored glasses looking at XWM's past.

Missiles and torps were useless (trust me, I tried), no one used bombs,  there were only 2 factions, and mostly you flew naked ships/no upgrades.

Phantoms and Fat Han were "NPE", and most people still didn't use mid-range aces.

People who want to go back to "primary arc dogfighting, no upgrades" are asking for XWM to stay at a checkers-level of complexity.  The game would be dead already if "dials and dice" were all that it ever remained.

The game is awesome now.  And will get even more awesome as new SW material arrives because new choices are what keeps it fresh.

THANK YOU.  People don’t remember how frustrating it was back in the early days as a Rebel player to see a TIE swarm across the board, watch in the first turn that they knew how to fly/maneuver a swarm, and just know you’ve already lost.  I’d argue that it wasn’t until wave 5 and the outrider that we could reliable pop a TIE a turn and stand a chance at surviving the swarm.

The game has ALWAYS been about getting around the restrictions of the core mechanics rather than fitting within them.  First it was put 8 arcs on the table so you will have a shot on something no matter what, then it was turrets, then it was phantoms and their perfect reposition, then it was dice mitigation, and so on and so on.

This mythical age of X-Wings and comparable ships locked in balanced dogfights and pure equity NEVER EXISTED.

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20 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

THANK YOU.  People don’t remember how frustrating it was back in the early days as a Rebel player to see a TIE swarm across the board, watch in the first turn that they knew how to fly/maneuver a swarm, and just know you’ve already lost.  I’d argue that it wasn’t until wave 5 and the outrider that we could reliable pop a TIE a turn and stand a chance at surviving the swarm.

The game has ALWAYS been about getting around the restrictions of the core mechanics rather than fitting within them.  First it was put 8 arcs on the table so you will have a shot on something no matter what, then it was turrets, then it was phantoms and their perfect reposition, then it was dice mitigation, and so on and so on.

This mythical age of X-Wings and comparable ships locked in balanced dogfights and pure equity NEVER EXISTED.

Yeah screw that guy for devoting countless hours into learning how to fly a swarm wtf did he think this is a dog fighting game?  Thank god we finally got Dash so we could just auto win against swarms and not have to try.

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4 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I have been playing since Wave 3, and those are rose colored glasses looking at XWM's past.

Missiles and torps were useless (trust me, I tried), no one used bombs,  there were only 2 factions, and mostly you flew naked ships/no upgrades.

Phantoms and Fat Han were "NPE", and most people still didn't use mid-range aces.

People who want to go back to "primary arc dogfighting, no upgrades" are asking for XWM to stay at a checkers-level of complexity.  The game would be dead already if "dials and dice" were all that it ever remained.

The game is awesome now.  And will get even more awesome as new SW material arrives because new choices are what keeps it fresh.

No one still uses bombs unless it's Miranda or Nym.   Missiles and torps still are useless outside of harpoons.  The 2nd most used missile is cruise and it's 75th in popularity out of all upgrades.  Out of the top 17 lists on meta wing the only pilots to field harpoons are again Miranda and nym.  All harpoons and bomblets/trajectory have served to do thus far is make those two pilots, who were already at the top of the food chain, even better. Watch this game and tell me if it looks like these guys are playing checkers 

I know a lot of people don't think joust-offs are sexy, I do but I can understand where they're coming from.  But there's no way you can tell me the turret wing meta we're under now is any more interesting than this. 

Edited by blairbunke

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