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FrightfulCommand

Gladiators and early wave ships

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I miss commanding these ships. The Gladiator, especially as multiples, is so fun. Also, the mk.II, Nebulon-b, and cr90, Raiders. Perhaps there will be more people playing these ships now with the rule set? Would the Gladiator and 5 Raider type of fleets come back and be good? 

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I think the only one of the Wave 1 ships that has complete viability are the CR-90s. Nothing can beat their maneuverability and twin evades pared with Turbolaser Reroute Circuits.

Nebulons - The last strong pillar is the Yavaris, but it has become too strong for its own good, recently nerfed. Otherwise the sides are a limitation and the offensive firepower is served by cheaper platforms (the aforementioned CR-90s, Hammerheads), or bigger ships (Liberty). Salvation is a hanger-on, but what you can do with it isn't as spectacular as the combos possible out of Yavaris or other starships.

Victory- They have their defenders, but you would still ask why you would take either version when an ISD is so much better. You get more out of the ship for the points you put into the base hull. The only space they edge out is with D-Caps on a VSD-II for cheaper, projecting 6 dice at long range with some afterthought upgrades to make that one attack more worthwhile.

Assault Frigate - Generally perceived as under powered, in spite of speed 3 and a good upgrade suite. 4 dice isn't that fantastic, Ackbar is usually used to inflate these to proper firepower levels. Gallant Heaven is no longer the no-damage zone.

Gladiator - Subsumed entirely by the power of the Demolisher title, they aren't typically taken in multiples . There's no awesome combo to take multiples with x upgrade card that matches the wow you get out of a perfectly placed Demolisher run. The recent nerf cut it off at the knees, but Demolisher still functions. (ie, it's not like using Admo and Forsight combined)

Edited by Norsehound

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3 hours ago, Norsehound said:

I think the only one of the Wave 1 ships that has complete viability are the CR-90s. Nothing can beat their maneuverability and twin evades pared with Turbolaser Reroute Circuits.

Nothing except EWS. They just can't put out enough damage anymore. EWS combined with the TRC nerf has hit them pretty hard.

Edited by Truthiness

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3 hours ago, FrightfulCommand said:

I miss commanding these ships. The Gladiator, especially as multiples, is so fun. Also, the mk.II, Nebulon-b, and cr90, Raiders. Perhaps there will be more people playing these ships now with the rule set? Would the Gladiator and 5 Raider type of fleets come back and be good? 

Not to state the obvious, but why don’t you just use them?  

They are all still good, you can win games with them.

 

 

 

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Well...

 

Core:

VSDs: They still make a good alternative to Quasar Fires if you feel like surviving some combat with your carrier. DCap VSD2s are certainly fun and Jerjerrod did wonders.

Nebulon: They have kind of been relegated to Salvation and Yavaris. Though there is dumb fun to be had with QBTs on a Nebulon.

CR90: The CR90 is mostly a TR90 now. Though locally, we have been experimenting with HIE90s. Additionally, I’ve pulled out Tantive IV again and been enjoying a Non-Flotilla comms net effect. It also meshes really well with Hondo as it allows Hondo to pump two tokens to a single ship.

 

Wave 1:

AFmk2 was hot garbage if it was used for anything but Ackbar or Gallant Haven. Gallant Haven isnt auto-win the squad battle anymore, so that hurts it’s standing but it still does wonders there. It still has a home with Ackbar. 

Demolishers are still Demolisher. There isn’t a real compelling reason to run a Demolisher with Insidious or 7th fleet. The nerf took it from derp-derp-kill-kill to some small amount of thought in maneuvering it. Players perceived this as a problem and it seems to have lost reputation for no real good reason. Is still the best knife fighter in the game with 4 Black dice and crit effects backing that title. 

Edited by Church14

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Seriously, this makes ISD commanders poop themselves when they realize it can throw more dice than they can... Thanks to the attitude of most players towards VSDs, they usually don't realize until you double arc them at close range, dumping 3 red, 2 blue, 3 black out the front, and 2 red, 2 blue, 3 black out the side. All this can be yours for less than a naked ISD I. Engineering commands from turn 3 on, to replenish and burn shields. :D

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
 Dominator  ( 12  points) 
-  Minister Tua  ( 2  points) 
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points) 
-  XX-9 Turbolasers  ( 5  points) 
-  External Racks  ( 3  points) 
= 109 total ship cost

Edited by cynanbloodbane

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I mean, Raider-II HIE DCaps are scary, Yavaris is still good just not an auto win button, Jainas Light never stopped being good, AF under Ackbar or as a Flight Controllers platform, Demolisher is still a freaking nightmare....

Yes, you can't spam them all anymore and do fine. And that's an issue because.....?

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14 minutes ago, geek19 said:

And weirdly the most hated. How dare it be a generalist! I demand specificity!

To be fair, my personal dislike for the guppy has nothing at all to do with the stats and jack of all trades nature of the ship and everything to do with it being the ugliest, least appealing miniature in the entire game.  Game wise I think it’s a solid upgrade or two away from relevance again (outside of ackbar lists).

Model wise?  Need to go to shapeways to fix that.

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1 hour ago, cynanbloodbane said:

Seriously, this makes ISD commanders poop themselves when they realize it can throw more dice than they can... Thanks to the attitude of most players towards VSDs, they usually don't realize until you double arc them at close range, dumping 3 red, 2 blue, 3 black out the front, and 2 red, 2 blue, 3 black out the side. All this can be yours for less than a naked ISD I. Engineering commands from turn 3 on, to replenish and burn shields. :D

Victory I-Class Star Destroyer (73 points)
 Dominator  ( 12  points) 
-  Minister Tua  ( 2  points) 
-  Gunnery Team  ( 7  points) 
-  Electronic Countermeasures  ( 7  points) 
-  XX-9 Turbolasers  ( 5  points) 
-  External Racks  ( 3  points) 
= 109 total ship cost

Good luck double arcing with it. Btw, if you double arc, drop gunnery team, veteran gunners or ordenance experts will serve you better. 

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1 minute ago, Noosh said:

I wasn't aware those ships had been obsolete, in my eyes their still perfectly useful. Yes there are more contenders for your points now, but no ship has straight up replaced them....

Yeah, this. They aren't new and shiny, so people forget that Gladiators in fact cost 56, not 70, or that the Assault Frigate is still far and away the best battle carrier the Rebels have and a very good heavy cruiser type component.

6 hours ago, Truthiness said:

Nothing except EWS. They just can't put out enough damage anymore. EWS combined with the TRC nerf has hit them pretty hard.

Am I supposed to be sympathetic to CR90 drivers who now have to work for their damage?

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44 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

 

Am I supposed to be sympathetic to CR90 drivers who now have to work for their damage?

Yes, yes you are. There the the ship qeuivalnt of a souped up Japanese car with cool blue lights underneath. Who doesn't think that's cool, and should be given all the toys!?!?!?

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2 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Am I supposed to be sympathetic to CR90 drivers who now have to work for their damage?

Work? There's no getting around their ineffectiveness at the moment. I've tried. They're just gonna sit in the dust bin for me. There are too many more effective options out there now. It's all about big ships now. RIP MSU.

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1 minute ago, Truthiness said:

Work? There's no getting around their ineffectiveness at the moment. I've tried. They're just gonna sit in the dust bin for me. There are too many more effective options out there now. It's all about big ships now. RIP MSU.

I haven't tested this yet. I thought it was rather true of the pre-nerf FAQ. Why do you think it is still so? 

(I mean, EWS isn't that ubiquitous, ECM is still needed vs larges. Losing massive squad prevalence means you can take more options than just Mothma.) 

Could you elaborate? 

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The only reason these ships don't see as much action as they did was because there are more options, not that there are better options.

Sure, VSDs were your only carriers at one point, but better options for that came along.  New upgrades gave it a new lease on life.  CR90s are still nice little ships that can play many roles and are solid filler material.  Nebs were always title specific ships.  Glads still back a solid punch and Demo is still very powerful.  

The problem was that in Wave 1, we didn't have options.  AFMk2 was the only non-yavaris carrier, and also the biggest thing the rebels had.  Now other carriers have appeared, and bigger ships have become common.  The AFMk2 is now what it always was, a mid weight brawler.  We just forced it to play other roles that it wasn't necessarily cut out for.  Same with the other wave 1 stuff.

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3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I haven't tested this yet. I thought it was rather true of the pre-nerf FAQ. Why do you think it is still so? 

(I mean, EWS isn't that ubiquitous, ECM is still needed vs larges. Losing massive squad prevalence means you can take more options than just Mothma.) 

Could you elaborate? 

The Cymoon I think is a big part of it. 6 reds with IF is murdering small ships on a reliable basis. Ask @geek19 about his Run DMC experiences. Previously a CR90 could weather a turn of long range front arc before scooting into the the side and keeping up that relentless TRC pressure. You can't do that to a Cymoon. You can try to avoid that front arc entirely, but that's not exactly easy and, more importantly, it costs you a turn of damage against a ship that's pretty tough. Combine that with EWS and squadrons, I think that's what's been killing MSU. Spike damage with large pools is where it's at right now. I don't want to claim certainty of the cause. All I have for that is my own experience using MSU in waves 6 and 7 and conjecture. 

What I can prove, however, is that MSU is in serious trouble. Regionals data shows that fleets with 3+ small (non-flotilla) ships are near no-shows at the top of Regional events and are represented at the top well below their overall useage in the general population. Call it "user error" all you want @Geressen, but the data shows very much the opposite. That was consistent in both wave 6 and 7 Regionals. Maybe it will better post-FAQ. They should be able to rely on activation advantage more now that flotillas aren't padding for large ships as bad as they did, so maybe that will help. I don't have that answer. I try to stick to identify problems using the data, not solutions.

 

And before I'm asked yet again, here's the wave 7 data link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14kjCf7_-KjTjAqMyUrXayZI8u9oBlqDyMLbYAMeaMxk/edit?usp=drivesdk

You'll have to ask @Baltanok for wave 6. I will openly admit I'm relying on my own shoddy memory for that, so apologies in advance if I mischaracterized that data.

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