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CompanionEwok

Don't put Thrawn on the box if Thrawn is not in the box.

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Here's my take on it.  Here's the original box art:

Image result for imperial assault box art

 

It's got Jyn, Fenn, Diala, stormtroopers, and Vader.  Basically, a relatively prototypical IA mission, and includes all figures that can be found in the Core box (Han, for instance, isn't on it).

 

image.jpeg.8ecfb8ad11c5d4ea2baa8f9f281fdf20.jpeg

Twin Shadows infamously features Boba Fett.  Yeah, he's not in the box.  Little is, really.  Really, the only minis they could show on it are Biv and Saska, Heavy Troopers, or Tusken Raiders.  The Heroes are hardly iconic to show on their own, the troopers aren't really that different to differentiate between the core box.  I guess best case scenario, the box art could've featured Biv and Saska fighting Tusken Raiders, but they (understandably) decided to feature the main draw of the wave instead- Boba Fett.

 

Image result for imperial assault box art

 

Wampas and Verena are in the box.  Diala is in core, but you definitely need to own Core to play this, so that's fine.  

 

Echo Base troopers in the background (I literally just realized for the first time they were even there) don't make the cut in the box as figures, but they may or may not be heavily featured in campaign regardless.

 

Image result for imperial assault box art

 

Like Twin Shadows, you've got the conundrum where the only figures in the box are the heroes and relatively uniconic draws big enough for the sale alone (ugs, Wing Guards). Basically, the same reasoning for TS.

 

Image result for imperial assault box art

Jabba isn't in the box as a figure, but it's Jabba's Realm.  How could the cover not feature him?

 

By the way, Salacious Crumb and Bib were never made into figures, and I'm pretty Oola never shows up at all.  That Jawa in the background wouldn't come until a few months later, and I'm still waiting on a Quarren.

 

But I've never heard people complain about that.

 

 

Image result for heart of the empire box art

 

As far as figures go, probably the most simplistic cover.  Ko-Tun is in the box.  Jyn is in Core.  Easy peasy.

 

Image result for tyrants of lothal

 

Death Troopers are in the box.  Thrawn is part of the wave.  At this point, I see it has a lot of the same issues as the other two small boxes, in that it relies on its non-included as a figure villain for icon.  But unlike the other two, it also features a unit in the box, in Death Troopers.  So, as I see it, it's actually a step in the right direction, even for someone who is against showcasing non-included figures on the box.

 

 

 

But what it really comes down to, I think, is that this art is more than just for the box, but for the wave itself.  If you're playing with the wave you don't need to buy the corresponding figure packs, but that doesn't stop the characters from still being a part of the game in some form, and even within the game's narrative.  

 

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I wonder if Skirmish players would prefer having to buy box sets to get one iconic figure for their army? I don't play much skirmish, only 3 games in my IA lifespan, but I am honestly curious. I don't think FFG could win either way. Maybe I'm missing something?

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On 4/14/2018 at 7:37 PM, Rikalonius said:

I agree, and I've made the point before when people say they want Tarkin.  They are fleet level commanders.  I don't think Palpatine should be in it either, nor do I think Yoda should ever make an appearance, but people want their favorite characters.   I'm still looking forward to Thrawn, however.  And you can make a case for it based on Rebels.   Also, Noghri would have made a better edition than Loth-cats. 

From a campaign point of view I was also skeptical about Palpatine (though happy to have the Sith Lord in my collection).  Sure he can fight, but why would he bother about some rebel heroes when he has Vader, RGs and more to take care of them?  But then I feel FFG really nailed how to include him in the HotE campaign missions.   He was not meant to be the front line aggressor, but more the behind-the-scene manipulator that he has been portrayed in the prequels.  I haven't watch Rebels, but if Thrawn feels out of place for some people based on how he is depicted in the show, I'm confident FFG will have found a way to properly represent Thrawn in the campaign, like they did with Sheev.

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On 4/17/2018 at 11:17 AM, The Cocky Rooster said:

I wonder if Skirmish players would prefer having to buy box sets to get one iconic figure for their army? I don't play much skirmish, only 3 games in my IA lifespan, but I am honestly curious. I don't think FFG could win either way. Maybe I'm missing something?

That's a good point.  I always allowed for the fact that for campaign players, you might not want to have to pay for the plastic for a figure that appears in 1-2 missions, but skirmish players needing to buy the whole box to get Deathtroopers in their squad... never thought about that side.

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And as a skirmish player I'd like to add, that I bought almost every box at least twice just to get a complete set of deployment cards.

It's good to buy the Core box twice. Additional figures, dice, tiles, ... there comes a lot of value with a second core. But many skirmish players bought it 4 times with box 3 and 4 just for some deployment cards (mostly the regular Royal Guards).

I have 2 Twin Shadows just for the second elite Tusken Raider card. Actually, I'm glad that this didn't come with double Somos, double Fett, double R2 and double 3PO.

I have a second box of Return to Hoth just for a second elite HKs card. Actually, I'm glad that this didn't come with double Sorin, double Dengar and double Leia.

ETC.

Get my point?

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3 hours ago, DerBaer said:

I have 2 Twin Shadows just for the second elite Tusken Raider card. Actually, I'm glad that this didn't come with double Somos, double Fett, double R2 and double 3PO.

I have a second box of Return to Hoth just for a second elite HKs card. Actually, I'm glad that this didn't come with double Sorin, double Dengar and double Leia.

ETC.

Get my point?

I think so... but you wanted double Maul and double Ahsoka in Heart of the Empire, right?  😜

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On 4/17/2018 at 10:17 AM, The Cocky Rooster said:

I wonder if Skirmish players would prefer having to buy box sets to get one iconic figure for their army? I don't play much skirmish, only 3 games in my IA lifespan, but I am honestly curious. I don't think FFG could win either way. Maybe I'm missing something?

Imperial players already are locked into buying a box (or two) to play Skirmish -- not for the uniques figures but for Troopers (Jets, Riots, Sentry Droids).

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10 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Now, this might be a crazy idea, but couldn't FFG offer the models both in the boxed set, AND as a blister?

I mean, there's no law that says it has to be one or the other, right?

I wouldn’t want to pay for a mini I don’t want. That would make the blister almost worthless, just a gimmick to sell the command cards. 

-ryanjamal 

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12 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Now, this might be a crazy idea, but couldn't FFG offer the models both in the boxed set, AND as a blister?

I mean, there's no law that says it has to be one or the other, right?

Do you mean like for generics, or uniques?

 

I really don't see many people wanting multiples of uniques.

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10 hours ago, subtrendy2 said:

Do you mean like for generics, or uniques?

 

I really don't see many people wanting multiples of uniques.

I'm not sure I follow.

For Campaign box expansions, they could easily put the "drawcard" characters in the box. They might charge another $5 to $10 or whatever if they do that. That way people who buy the campaign box can get a much more fulfilling purchase and there's less sadness when they realise that cool character they want isn't in the box.

Then FFG could ALSO provide the character as a stand-alone blister pack expansion. So skirmish players who don't want the other stuff in the box can just buy the character.

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I was figuring the missions and whatnot would be included in the box like Luke and Vader were included in the core set. Adding the key characters to the box simply gives the consumer a more satisfying buying experience, making for happier customers who buy more product. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Then FFG could ALSO provide the character as a stand-alone blister pack expansion. So skirmish players who don't want the other stuff in the box can just buy the character.

But in most cases the skirmish players need to buy the boxed expansions anyway for the tiles.

So, effectively you are asking to make the boxed expansions more expensive so that campaign players don't need to use tokens (also the ones who don't mind using tokens need to pay more), and remove the need for the skirmish players to buy the figure expansions. Because of the latter, the boxed expansions need to be more expensive to compensate the loss of sales. (Although, less content means less design, artwork, and testing.)

Edited by a1bert

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On 5/12/2018 at 3:03 AM, Chucknuckle said:

Ah yes, I forgot about the tile issue.

Skirmish players also generally want the boxes because a plethora of command cards come in them. I wouldn’t mind the main villain of the campaigns being added in the boxes and then that faction could be skipped for the Blister wave. Or just add an extra new figure in the blister wave for whatever faction it ends up being so the waves get slightly larger. 

 

Honestly I don’t see FFG changing how things currently work. They try to keep the cost down(ish) by leaving things that campaign players might not need/want out of the boxes. I’m fine with it being optional to get the villains. 

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I would have thought that, in a miniatures game, having the actual characters featured in the campaign would be one of the things players want the most! Playing a game with beautifully painted miniatures, but using a cardboard token for the main villain would be SO anticlimactic!

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43 minutes ago, Chucknuckle said:

I would have thought that, in a miniatures game, having the actual characters featured in the campaign would be one of the things players want the most! Playing a game with beautifully painted miniatures, but using a cardboard token for the main villain would be SO anticlimactic!

I mean, it's not like campaign players can't get the packs.

 

I have them all, and have like 20 combined minutes of skirmish play.

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Yeah, but if I were a company producing a game I'd want my customers to have a holistic and enjoyable buying experience. Using a cardboard token for the villain doesn't provide an engaging and immersive experience, and asking customers to buy a box AND a blister provides another friction point. People who kinda want to buy but they don't really know if their friends will want to play and it's a bit expensive... the ones who are on the fence about it are going to be put off when they realise they either didn't get the villain in the box, or they realise they have to buy another pack on top of the box.

Now I know this is mitigated because these are expansions. The only people buying these already have a core set, so they've already had those discussions with themselves about getting the use out of the box, the cost etc. But even then you've got people who's friends were perhaps not enthusiastic about it, and you're not sure if they will want to play the Bespin campaign or the Hoth campaign, or maybe everyone's just really busy now and no one has time to play, or maybe you really just want it for the cool models to paint but it's kinda pricey just for the models...

Anyway, I guess that's why they put Vader and Luke in the core set. Having people buy a Star Wars miniatures game and then using cardboard chits for Vader and Luke would have been very anticlimactic. Not the experience I would have wanted people to have if it was my game. And I guess I would have carried that philosophy over to my expansion campaigns.

Having said that, I wouldn't have required people to bring their own tiles when developing the Skirmish/Tournament aspect of the game either, so that changes the hypothetical equation.

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Posted (edited)

Why is this recurring subject always about the villain? In most of the campaigns you're as likely to meet some of the other figures only found in the box as cardboard replacements as you are the villain.

In Return to Hoth you even start the very first mission with cardboard Echo Base Troopers (who mind you are on the cover of the box) and will win them as allies to potentially appear in every single mission going forward.

If FFG were to discontinue the model of putting cardboard pieces in the boxes in place of the figures that released with the same wave, it would seem even more arbitrary if some of the wave was in there and others not. And it would push the price significantly up for figures you'll rarely if ever meet in the campaign, the main villain or otherwise.

Edited by Cremate

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

Yeah, but if I were a company producing a game I'd want my customers to have a holistic and enjoyable buying experience. Using a cardboard token for the villain doesn't provide an engaging and immersive experience, and asking customers to buy a box AND a blister provides another friction point. People who kinda want to buy but they don't really know if their friends will want to play and it's a bit expensive... the ones who are on the fence about it are going to be put off when they realise they either didn't get the villain in the box, or they realise they have to buy another pack on top of the box.

Now I know this is mitigated because these are expansions. The only people buying these already have a core set, so they've already had those discussions with themselves about getting the use out of the box, the cost etc. But even then you've got people who's friends were perhaps not enthusiastic about it, and you're not sure if they will want to play the Bespin campaign or the Hoth campaign, or maybe everyone's just really busy now and no one has time to play, or maybe you really just want it for the cool models to paint but it's kinda pricey just for the models...

Anyway, I guess that's why they put Vader and Luke in the core set. Having people buy a Star Wars miniatures game and then using cardboard chits for Vader and Luke would have been very anticlimactic. Not the experience I would have wanted people to have if it was my game. And I guess I would have carried that philosophy over to my expansion campaigns.

Having said that, I wouldn't have required people to bring their own tiles when developing the Skirmish/Tournament aspect of the game either, so that changes the hypothetical equation.

I understand, but the thing about this argument is that it seemingly ignores the fact that it's not like we'd be getting the villains for free if it was done otherwise.

 

We can reasonably assume that by including the blisters inside the boxes, we'd see a price rise of $30-$60 for each box (possibly oveer $80 for the core set).  

 

That's really bad for three reasons-

 

1) Obviously it's a higher buy in.  The core set along might approach the $150 dollar mark, if not exceed it (Depending on who you buy from).  That's awful.  I'd much rather buy a box, and pick up a pack at a later date.

 

2) Skirmish players, if they want multiples of generics, would have to pay that $30-$80 extra dollars per each extra box for minis that they likely won't even get use out of anyway, given the uniques would be duplicates.

 

3) If campaign or skirmish wanted duplicates of non-unique blisters, they'd also have to buy an entirely new (and now, more expensive) box for them.

 

 

I get that it might be frustrating to click "Add to Cart" a few times when making your purchase (or if you're luck to have a FLGC, bending down and picking up packs in addition to your box), and I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but it's far better than the alternative.

 

If anything, I'd argue that we should sell heroes separate from boxes too- we have plenty at this point, and I really don't see uniques having a spot in boxes anymore, given they also probably could help mitigate this issue even further.

 

Descent started doing that in their final releases, and it not only allowed for them to include more monsters in the boxes, but they don't even have a skirmish mode anyway.

Edited by subtrendy2

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1 hour ago, subtrendy2 said:

I understand, but the thing about this argument is that it seemingly ignores the fact that it's not like we'd be getting the villains for free if it was done otherwise.

 

We can reasonably assume that by including the blisters inside the boxes, we'd see a price rise of $30-$60 for each box (possibly oveer $80 for the core set).  

 

That's really bad for three reasons-

 

1) Obviously it's a higher buy in.  The core set along might approach the $150 dollar mark, if not exceed it (Depending on who you buy from).  That's awful.  I'd much rather buy a box, and pick up a pack at a later date.

 

2) Skirmish players, if they want multiples of generics, would have to pay that $30-$80 extra dollars per each extra box for minis that they likely won't even get use out of anyway, given the uniques would be duplicates.

 

3) If campaign or skirmish wanted duplicates of non-unique blisters, they'd also have to buy an entirely new (and now, more expensive) box for them.

 

 

I get that it might be frustrating to click "Add to Cart" a few times when making your purchase (or if you're luck to have a FLGC, bending down and picking up packs in addition to your box), and I'm not saying it's a perfect solution, but it's far better than the alternative.

 

If anything, I'd argue that we should sell heroes separate from boxes too- we have plenty at this point, and I really don't see uniques having a spot in boxes anymore, given they also probably could help mitigate this issue even further.

 

Descent started doing that in their final releases, and it not only allowed for them to include more monsters in the boxes, but they don't even have a skirmish mode anyway.

I still think they should have kept only uniques in the boxes and have everything else tokens. It would have made way more sense to be able to buy multiple packs of the non uniques which you currently can only do for the Rebel figures, Jawas, hired guns , dewbacks, at-st and stormtroopers

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1 minute ago, neosmagus said:

I still think they should have kept only uniques in the boxes and have everything else tokens. It would have made way more sense to be able to buy multiple packs of the non uniques which you currently can only do for the Rebel figures, Jawas, hired guns , dewbacks, at-st and stormtroopers

That's not a bad idea, too.  It would mean a lot of blister packs, but it might have been the most viable strategy.

 

As long as command cards were pretty much exclusive to the packs, too.  It would be brutal for skirmish players to have to buy extra boxes for no other reason than command cards (not even benefitting from extra units).

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