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Davitho

The AT-ST Costs Too Much.

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There I said it. You're going to tell me that Luke costs 25 pts less than an AT-ST? I can't even should Luke with any of a fully loaded AT-ST's guns if he's engaged with a trooper. In order to get most of the more beneficial abilities of the AT-ST you have to buy upgrade cards. And it is the only piece right now to have a Weakness. Don't get me wrong the AT-ST should cost a good 170-175, but 195 is too much considering how it can be taken out of the game if the map is mildly terrained. And its mortar's suppression ability is essentially useless if the player knows to keep their troopers within range 3 of Luke. 

Look, the AT-ST is great. I have yet to have it fall in battle. But I also have had times were it seemed like an expensive paper weight on the battle field because I could never see any thing. It would be more useful if those 20 extra points could be used to upgrade something else. 

All this being said, this is my first game I have gotten into like this and I may not know what I am talking about, it just feels like it can be more useful. 

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1 hour ago, Davitho said:

There I said it. You're going to tell me that Luke costs 25 pts less than an AT-ST? I can't even should Luke with any of a fully loaded AT-ST's guns if he's engaged with a trooper. In order to get most of the more beneficial abilities of the AT-ST you have to buy upgrade cards. And it is the only piece right now to have a Weakness. Don't get me wrong the AT-ST should cost a good 170-175, but 195 is too much considering how it can be taken out of the game if the map is mildly terrained. And its mortar's suppression ability is essentially useless if the player knows to keep their troopers within range 3 of Luke. 

Look, the AT-ST is great. I have yet to have it fall in battle. But I also have had times were it seemed like an expensive paper weight on the battle field because I could never see any thing. It would be more useful if those 20 extra points could be used to upgrade something else. 

All this being said, this is my first game I have gotten into like this and I may not know what I am talking about, it just feels like it can be more useful. 

your not alone, i'm of the opinion that those 195 points are better spend on 2 units of Speeder Bikes, the ability to Move+Aim + Shoot with the same dice seems more worth it imo

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I think you should play it bare-bone and see how it goes. If unit price is a problem, consider putting less points on it (its main gun and HP combo is scary enough.) But the AT-ST in my experience has been the bane of the battlefield. If the AT-ST is having trouble seeing a unit, move the AT-ST. It's not a God; you can't expect it to sit in one corner and control the field. Part of the AT-STs strength is that it can soak up tons of damage and fight unscathed (11/8 means it's got to take a Darth Vader's worth of damage before it's crippled in some way.)

I also don't think you are being fair with the point about its weakness. Have you ever fell victim to its weakness? In other words, have you exposed the rear of the AT-ST to the enemy army?

Terrain is another thing. Terrain is a facet of every tabletop game like Legion. Terrian can be just as much your friend as it is your enemy. Use terrain to your advantage, rather than allow it to be a disadvantage. In other words, if your AT-ST can't see what you want it to see, move the AT-ST! It's got eleven health and armor for cryin' out loud! It's meant to take some heat!

Given every single experience I have had with the AT-ST as a rebel player, I can only conclude that if it were any cheaper I would be fighting two consistently. One is already a frustrating experience. 

But yes, if you play the AT-ST as a static sniper on the back of the board and allow rebels to hide from it, I can see why you would think it's too expensive.

 

 

Edited by Xiervak

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Another piece of advice: If you are playing objectives where trooper units are tasked with seizing the objectives, use the AT-ST to decimate trooper units. Do everything you can with the AT-ST to prevent rebels from taking Objectives, even if that means running on up there and taking some heat. I guarantee the AT-ST can take out at least 2 troopers, if not more, before it goes down (which I've never seen happen to an AT-ST before.) How can the rebels take the objectives if they don't have any troopers to claim them?

 

 

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I don't think it has quite enough output for its cost.  It probably at the very least needs to convert surges to hits.  The weapons are largely a good value; its just a matter of choosing which one best fits the playstyle you have in mind.  

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When Veers comes out there will be more synergy with the AT-ST being in your list. Though I think the mortar should have an area of effect, something like any units within movement speed 1 of the unit leader of the targeted unit also suffers 1 suppression. 

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And its mortar's suppression ability is essentially useless if the player knows to keep their troopers within range 3 of Luke. 

i’ve had good use of the suppression from across the board. Hitting a trooper unit with 2 suppression at the beginning is nice. If they don’t clear one during rally they only have one action. I did that turn after turn while firing my other weapon at different units. Basically held that unit out of the game.

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On 9.4.2018 at 5:30 AM, Davitho said:

There I said it. You're going to tell me that Luke costs 25 pts less than an AT-ST? I can't even should Luke with any of a fully loaded AT-ST's guns if he's engaged with a trooper. In order to get most of the more beneficial abilities of the AT-ST you have to buy upgrade cards. And it is the only piece right now to have a Weakness. Don't get me wrong the AT-ST should cost a good 170-175, but 195 is too much considering how it can be taken out of the game if the map is mildly terrained. And its mortar's suppression ability is essentially useless if the player knows to keep their troopers within range 3 of Luke. 

Look, the AT-ST is great. I have yet to have it fall in battle. But I also have had times were it seemed like an expensive paper weight on the battle field because I could never see any thing. It would be more useful if those 20 extra points could be used to upgrade something else. 

All this being said, this is my first game I have gotten into like this and I may not know what I am talking about, it just feels like it can be more useful. 

You underestimate his power. ;)

Against the suppression from the mortar, Luke will not really help, because Lukes value is only used against panic. Sure, without Luke you can theoretically panic a squad in the first round but this would be too powerful for 4+ range and at least costs of 10 points.

In my opinion the AT-ST is perfect to create no no areas, secure or liberate object zones and for operation meatshield. I personally prefer the AT-ST with only one upgrade, the second laser or the rocket launcher. In this configurations he is a tank buster and a nightmare for badly formed squad lines. With core and wave 1 you have the opportunity to take 2 of this beasts together with Vader into your list and that is nothing a rebel like to see.

Edited by TobiWan

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On 4/8/2018 at 10:30 PM, Davitho said:

There I said it. You're going to tell me that Luke costs 25 pts less than an AT-ST? I can't even should Luke with any of a fully loaded AT-ST's guns if he's engaged with a trooper. In order to get most of the more beneficial abilities of the AT-ST you have to buy upgrade cards. And it is the only piece right now to have a Weakness. Don't get me wrong the AT-ST should cost a good 170-175, but 195 is too much considering how it can be taken out of the game if the map is mildly terrained. And its mortar's suppression ability is essentially useless if the player knows to keep their troopers within range 3 of Luke. 

Look, the AT-ST is great. I have yet to have it fall in battle. But I also have had times were it seemed like an expensive paper weight on the battle field because I could never see any thing. It would be more useful if those 20 extra points could be used to upgrade something else. 

All this being said, this is my first game I have gotten into like this and I may not know what I am talking about, it just feels like it can be more useful. 

One other piece of advice I want to offer you when ~25% of your team is tied up into one piece: Put yourself in the shoes of the Rebel player. Figure out what you would do to counter the AT-ST, then thwart those plans. For me, because the Rebels have next to nothing to fight the AT-ST toe-to-toe, I simply must rely on terrain. Otherwise it's like the Normandy scene from Saving Private Ryan. So as a Rebel player with mediocre anti-vehicle defenses, I've got to do everything I can to take advantage of the board in order to survive. It's up to you as the Imperial player to shut down the advantages I have. Here are other thoughts:

- Someone suggested mortaring Luke. That's a great idea. If you lock him down early, Vader has control of the board and is free to reenact Rogue One at his discretion while Luke is being bombarded with mortars.

- Perhaps this is one of the advantages to the Speeder bikes: they can skirt around terrain quickly and flush out/kill rebs. They are not easy to pilot as many here will attest, but it's a learning curve. I've had similar experiences with my T-47 where if I drive down the middle of the map on round 1, he'll get obliterated. With the T-47/Speeder bikes, it's all about when you activate them during the round, and when they are better off a distraction once they've been damaged. Keeping the speeder-bikes back round 1, then activating them in the beginning of Round (or pick your back-to-back rounds, they don't necessarily need to be 1 & 2), is a great way to lay down damage and then GTFO. This tactic is also reliant upon which commands you play, so keep in mind that, should you use the speeder bikes, there will be a good chance that your commands will hinge on keeping them alive.

- Vehicles offer cover. Earlier I suggested (having never tried it myself) to use the AT-ST as a meatshield. This is advantageous not only because of it's armor and health, but because you can line units up behind them and provide cover to them, giving you essentially mobile cover. 

 

If I have more ideas I will come back here and post them. 

 

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There are two big things I would like to point out that you said.

One, you have never lost one in a fight.  

That is huge, like absolutely gigantic.  I have never seen it go down in a fight either.  I have seen AT-RTs, Speeders, Luke, Vader and piles of infantry go down.  Have never seen anyone actually kill an AT-ST.  That alone is worth 195 points.

Two, you say sometimes you can't see anything to shoot with it.  That is a learn to play issue my good man.  Unless you are trying to play Legion on an Infinity board getting an AT-ST LOS blocked out  of a game is operator error 100%.

At this point in time Luke is the AT-ST's only natural predator and there are a lot of ways to deal with Luke.  If the thing was any cheaper it would legit break the game.

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You're probably playing it wrong if you're complaining about it. You don't need to include every upgrade it has, just because it has the slots, doesn't mean you should. The two upgrades it should have are the 88's and the mortar. It's impact is good against breaking AT-RT's and deterring T-47's. It's play starts before you hit the table. Having the right condition and deployment is a must for you. Yeah it's 195 base, but it deters your opponent from an area you need and intimidates them before it hits the table. Suppression and panic are huge in the game. If you deploy it right, keep it protected from behind, then you should have a win almost every time.  

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Played it. It is expensive and when Veers comes out, it's going in every list with him. I found the mortar kind of useless after round 1 as the rebels swarmed. It did die after 4 rounds of concentrated fire but managed to kill an airspeeder and rip apart a few squads. It took a combined effort of the air speeder, those squads and Luke to bring it down.

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On 4/15/2018 at 5:13 AM, migs6000 said:

Played it. It is expensive and when Veers comes out, it's going in every list with him. I found the mortar kind of useless after round 1 as the rebels swarmed. It did die after 4 rounds of concentrated fire but managed to kill an airspeeder and rip apart a few squads. It took a combined effort of the air speeder, those squads and Luke to bring it down.

So it single-handedly occcupied almost their entire army for 2/3 of the game, and took down a few with it? 

Impressive... most impressive. 

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Being able to panic  a rebel trooper unit on turn 1 isn't enough of a boon. , if the rebel player puts a trooper unit at a range far enough away from their commander you can panic it on the first attack by landing 2 suppression tokens from one hit. This means that they have to make sure they are close enough to Luke. So they either have to cluster round Luke , or run within range 3 or less of the AT ST . This gives a positional advantage before anything is even put on the table. 

Note that if they run towards the AT ST that is troublesome for the opposition either. Between 1 AT ST and Vader you can dominate much of the table. I think that trying to compare it to 4 Glass Cannons (TM) is a bad idea. The option to have 4 speeder bikes instead is not worse or better , it's just different. It favours offense rather then defense. You can easily lose a bike to one volley from a trooper unit , unless that unit has impact, or is very lucky, your offense isn't much hurt by 1 or 2 college from a trooper unit of you are using an ATST. 

ultimately the two options are viable and can be situationally better than each other

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48 minutes ago, syrath said:

The option to have 4 speeder bikes instead is not worse or better , it's just different.

Totally Agree. The At-St and the bikes represents differents kinds of play. For exemple, the AT-ST can be used as a guard standing alone in one point and firing every unit that comes close to the pont. The bikes cannot play this role. First of all, because they move allways. 

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It's an all-rounder, which is never worth the points if you look at each element alone. But it should *always* have good work to do. It's up to you to get the best work possible, and make sure the rest of your force is there to use it.

1. Attrition: it does lots of damage. It can damage anything. But it's unlikely to make its points back in a game. That's ok, though: it can pick the *most important* points to kill.

2. Tanking (the other half of attrition): if the enemy wants to kill it, it will take a stupid amount of fire to do it. That preserves the rest of your force - so make sure everything you have gets into the fight at the same time. If they ignore it (and at least half of all of lists *should* ignore it), then it can go wherever it likes.

3. Board control / scenarios: if it can kill everything in an area, then put it in the right area. There are scenarios where it is a monster. Make sure you're using your card eliminations to get yourself a good scenario to fight on.

Personally, I like the mortar just to put suppression on units so they can't double-move early, or aim / dodge later on. It can also really punish wide-flanking units, particularly if it's a scenario that encourages that. It's worth the 10 points, IMO (I've been trying grenade launcher / mortar: if I have grenade launcher targets I use that, but if not there will be a mortar target).

 

I had gone over to the Bike Side, but I think Veers makes for an interesting list: Veers (esteemed); 4 x Stormtroopers with DLTs; 2 x Snowtroopers with flamers; ATST with grenades and mortar; Speeder bikes (long range comms).

9 units, good mix of anti-vehicle and (mostly) anti-infantry, lots of flexibility.

...on the other hand, the same list, minus the ATST, nets 2 more units of speederbikes, and a couple of extra troopers. The thing about this is, holy god, three units of speederbikes is like a flying chainsaw tearing up one side or the other. 

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AT-ST with mortars is able to make, if you get initiative in turn one, and you get at least a hit, one enemy squad that was out of its commander's bubble rout on its first round by causing two suppression, theoretically. That may not be much in terms of points kileld, but it's a lot of points saved on your end.

Otherwise it can walk forwards and with the grenade launcher be used as cover clearer as well as charge some units, then become Jedi Bait.

In my opinion, it isn't tough enough to just walk in the middle of the field, so it's better in a flank, moving agressively with a grenade launcher on its side (cost effective)  crushing one squad at a time while not being in range to get shot at by everything (preventing the enemy being able to focus fire it down). This will either make you oponent ignore/avoid it, try to chip its armour bit by bit, or reform their whole line to face the threat. That's where the rest of the army will be able to do work. Sadly, with only vader available on most tables, you don't have much firepower. With veers though as your only leader, you will be able to kit your other squads properly.

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I love both Vader and Luke thematically but having Luke /Airspeeder or Vader /AT ST is a costly combination. I think once more commanders come out that the Jedi will be in lists with less armor. Not to say it's not doable but they definitely all have their uses in the right scenarios and produce some interesting combos when used correctly.

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I played a bare AT-ST the other night. What a huge mistake. I concede that you cannot play it without at least the mortar. But knowing how to take advantage of a lazily deployed unit round 1 can make or break a game. 

Since Vader has also become a recurring topic of conversation here, I think that force choke is game changing. Being able to obliterate a z-6 as an afterthought will let my storm troopers live a bit longer!

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Hows everyone finding the 88 twin blaster, I really want to like it for its range 3 but feel the grenade launcher does more damage thanks to blast. Blast effectively gives you 2 extra hits when heavy cover is in play. But the AtSts big strength is out ranging the opponent which the launcher doesn't do well at all.

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