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Mongriff

Alternate timeline game - Opinions?

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15 hours ago, Trey489 said:

This was my idea and I'm grateful for all of the ideas and opinions. I'm looking to run this as a long game coming soon I hope.

Another idea/concept that would cause massive upheaval in the galaxy:

What would have happened had Palpatine/Sidous been killed when he confronted Maul & Oppress on Mandalore?

The Rule of 2 remains broken. You have two competing Sith Lords in Dooku and Maul. You have Republic whose primary leader suddenly goes MIA during a major war. You have the Jedi order scratching its head about what took place. You have a major new player in the galaxy with the rise of Mandalore and the amalgamation of the various criminal cartels under Maul.

I am sure this list could go on.

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17 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It doesn’t matter what the reason is. The government won’t fall apart from a President or Chancellor ( or Prime Minister, whatever) being removed from that position. No matter what the circumstances. Unlike in a dictatorship or absolute monoarchy, a Republic does not depend on one person for its survival or functionality. No individual is indispensable to the running of a Republic. Presidents and Chancellors come and go. The institution survives independently of whoever currently holds the position.

Nobody’s saying the leader being removed makes it impossible for the republic to survive. Nobody’s saying that if the chancellor is deposed on Monday there’s no longer a senate by Tuesday. What we’re saying is that the manner in which the chancellor is removed, and the knowledge of what he is and what he did, will further destabilize the Galactic Republic. Given that the Republic was already in turmoil, not the least due to Palpatine’s machinations, this can eventually lead to the senate fracturing more - some joining the Separatists maybe, others splitting off in an alliance of their own, very likely a bunch staying in the Republic but using the chaos to further their own ends. Is that absolutely guaranteed to happen if Palps gets snapped up by the Jedi before he can finalize his plans? No, obviously not. But that’s not the point. It’s all hypothetical anyway. It’s about what might happen. It’s about thinking up an alternate setting that would suit this group to go adventuring in.

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3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Nobody’s saying the leader being removed makes it impossible for the republic to survive. Nobody’s saying that if the chancellor is deposed on Monday there’s no longer a senate by Tuesday. What we’re saying is that the manner in which the chancellor is removed, and the knowledge of what he is and what he did, will further destabilize the Galactic Republic. Given that the Republic was already in turmoil, not the least due to Palpatine’s machinations, this can eventually lead to the senate fracturing more - some joining the Separatists maybe, others splitting off in an alliance of their own, very likely a bunch staying in the Republic but using the chaos to further their own ends. Is that absolutely guaranteed to happen if Palps gets snapped up by the Jedi before he can finalize his plans? No, obviously not. But that’s not the point. It’s all hypothetical anyway. It’s about what might happen. It’s about thinking up an alternate setting that would suit this group to go adventuring in.

And what I am saying is that no it would not.  It does not matter why said leader was removed. Every republic has built in safeguards for any situation where a leader is removed from power, no matter the circumstances surrounding it. That is why republics like the US, have laws in place for a proper succession if the head of the government is impeached (and convicted), assassinated, resigns, etc. There would never be such an upheaval that would cause the entire government to fracture or collapse simply because the current leader was removed from power, regardless of why he was removed. 

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29 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And what I am saying is that no it would not.  It does not matter why said leader was removed. Every republic has built in safeguards for any situation where a leader is removed from power, no matter the circumstances surrounding it. That is why republics like the US, have laws in place for a proper succession if the head of the government is impeached (and convicted), assassinated, resigns, etc. There would never be such an upheaval that would cause the entire government to fracture or collapse simply because the current leader was removed from power, regardless of why he was removed. 

Never is a pretty strong word. Especially considering when history has already proved you wrong.

But I guess I broke my vow to be done with you on this topic, and quite frankly, this tangent and pointless debate is derailing what is otherwise a pretty cool thread. So this time I really am done with you because I will not feed your trolling. 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Never is a pretty strong word. Especially considering when history has already proved you wrong.

But I guess I broke my vow to be done with you on this topic, and quite frankly, this tangent and pointless debate is derailing what is otherwise a pretty cool thread. So this time I really am done with you because I will not feed your trolling. 

History hasn't proven me wrong. Hitler didn't fail to take over the German government, so that's not a good example. If he had failed, the german republic would still have gone on under a different chancellor. The same is true with Palpatine. Had he been ousted, the Republic would have simply elected a new Chancellor. 

 

So, unless you can show me an example where a would-be dictator failed to usurp power from a republic yet still resulted in a collapse of the government, your argument does not stand up. 

Edited by Tramp Graphics

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5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And what I am saying is that no it would not.  It does not matter why said leader was removed. Every republic has built in safeguards for any situation where a leader is removed from power, no matter the circumstances surrounding it. That is why republics like the US, have laws in place for a proper succession if the head of the government is impeached (and convicted), assassinated, resigns, etc. There would never be such an upheaval that would cause the entire government to fracture or collapse simply because the current leader was removed from power, regardless of why he was removed. 

Pretty much every empire ever ended because the leadership proved unable to deal with growing dissent, rivals, the nation collapsing under its own bloated weight, or outside enemies exploiting its weakness. The Roman Empire spiraled down to its end via a long string of ineffectual leaders (with a few temporary exceptions) who lost more and more influence and territory, until a few barbarian sackings put a definitive end to it. Alexander the Great’s son succeeded him, but a few civil wars later his empire was no more. 

Deposing Palpatine wouldn’t be the reason the Galactic Republic would fracture, it would the catalyst. The Senate had given Palpatine authority that was equal to theirs, but he wasn’t a would-be dictator yet - he didn’t make his move until well after Order 66 was executed. Would his successor inherit his extended political powers? The Clone Wars weren’t over quite yet, but the Separatists’ main leaders were gone (assuming @Mongriff meant the alternate timeline to start after Dooku and Grievous were eliminated). Would he be an actual leader or a figurehead? If his authority were brought back to pre-Clone War level, would he be able to deal with the issues that led to the Separatist movement in the first place? What becomes of the Separatists? Is whoever steps in to fill the vacuum left by Dooku’s and Grievous’ demise capable enough to continue the war?

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5 hours ago, Magnus Arcanus said:

Never is a pretty strong word. Especially considering when history has already proved you wrong.

But I guess I broke my vow to be done with you on this topic, and quite frankly, this tangent and pointless debate is derailing what is otherwise a pretty cool thread. So this time I really am done with you because I will not feed your trolling. 

Welcome to trying to argue with TG.  :D

IMO, the republic would survive, but wouldn't be the same.  The chancellor/president/etc is a figure head.  The real problem is the corruption and problems that Papa Palps built into the senate.  Many systems would join the separatists over the reveal of the massive corruption that was at the core of why the CIS left.  Others would stay and rebuild.  Some of the separatist's worlds may return after a while now that the source of corruption had been outed.  Most senators would be replaced, but those that weren't would have a hard time getting anything done.  The Republic as the existing entity wouldn't survive, but the republic as an institution would soldier on and rebuild.  But the CIS would probably be rocked too.  Especially if they learned that Dooku was PP's puppet.  Even if not, they would probably replace most of their senators knowing that PP had influenced them as well.

 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

IMO, the republic would survive, ...

Your opinion is fine, I’m not arguing against it, but the point is that this isn’t a question of what would happen. The question is what could happen. And the answer to that is pretty much anything. Unless TG has some sort of evidence to suggest the Galactic Senate can’t fracture no matter what, all his arguments are besides the point. 

Edited by nameless ronin

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1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

Your opinion is fine, I’m not arguing against it, but the point is that this isn’t a question of what would happen. The question is what could happen. And the answer to that is pretty much anything. Unless TG has some sort of evidence to suggest the Galactic Senate can’t fracture no matter what, all his arguments are besides the point. 

Hence my first comment.   :D

I've broken that vow a time or two myself.  lol.

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Posted (edited)

Alright...this topic's giving me a headache. 

 

I figure I might as well weigh in on this. Granted, I'm not exactly qualified to talk about it (I only have a Masters Degree in INTERNATIONAL Relations, not intergalactic. So I'm not used to operating on Planetary Scale) but let's see if I can't maybe bring my perspective on some possible things that would happen if Palpatine was discovered. However, I won't be going into DEEP detail as I don't want to bore everyone as it will require a post of astronomical sizes to go into explicit details. 

So let's go with cliff-notes hypothetical.

#

First, and foremost is this: The Republic Will not immediately fall apart. 

The wheels of Democracy will keep spinning, at-least for a time depending on what happens next. But, reading back on this thread, I think we at-least all agree the republic won't collapse within 24 hours of the Chancellor being ousted as a criminal so we can move on.

The most notable thing to understand is that while there may be processes in place politically in a Republic, to think that a republic is by it's nature immortal completely is not correct either. ESPECIALLY with a crime the scale of what Chancellor Palpatine pulled off. With this in mind, here's some very likely possibilities:

1) The Republic is going to be in a state of unease and unbalance, the leaders distrusted. The senate will descend into (political) infighting as Senators use Palpatines actions to scapegoat potential Supreme Chancellors or even political opponents (Calling someones a "Palpatine" will be akin to some calling other opponents Nazi's). And this isn't even going into possible purges within the senate itself to try to oust possible Palpatine accomplices.

2) The republic is likely going to go through a few supreme chancellors in the years following this. For all their in-fighting, the Senate will far more power then in the past and be able to keep a considerable sway over the newly elected Supreme Chancellors. Any step too far in one direction, any policy seen as too radical or against the interests of a majority of senators will be met with, at best, a vote of no confidence. Any Supreme Chancellor will be fighting an uphill battle to stay in office. Not only with the senate, but the public.

3) There will be a substantial distrust in the public towards any newly elected leader for at-least the next few years. After all, their own Supreme Chancellor orchestrated a war of such a scale that it wouldn't be surprising if this hung like an albatross around the neck of any sod sorry enough to want to get into office. This is probably going to extend to Senators to some extent as well.

Much like Ronin said, there is a high chance of of some worlds seceding from the republic. Maybe not to join the Separatists, but possibly to go independent. 

Whether the republic does survive or not will depend on a number of factors, but it could just as easily end up dissolving into planetary Alliances and Unions that are separate from the republic (Creating something of a third faction). It all depends on whether a strong enough leader rises up and gains enough support from the public and backing of the Senate. 

#

Now, you might think that this would give the Separatists a victory. After all, Palpatine is now gone and the Republic is in tatters. So it's all hunky-dory for them to go win the war, right?

Not exactly.

See, Palpatine being ousted is likely going to create some buzz among the Separatists. Some may not take kindly to the fact that they were essentially serving a great, big old lie and may end up going back to the Republic or (as stated earlier) going independent. Others might view Dooku and other leaders as being simply puppet rulers and, without palpatine to guide them, lose faith. Or, even, try to make power grabs for themselves.

After all, Dooku's just a puppet right? The Separatists need a REAL leader. And I'm sure that General Grievous fellow seemed a bit fake too everyone else too, yeah?

There will likely be some infighting or power grabs within the Separatist movement from this. Given Dooku's nature and background, he should be able to put a stop to it and get back on track. But the question is how long it will take, how big the infighting gets and how many of the Separatists are shaken up by this. After all, this is one case where brushing it under the rug could very well prove completely impossible. 

Now, the Separatists could have much more to gain from this then the republic and may have an easier time given the fact Dooku is still a player. If he acts fast enough he can capitalize on this to make some big blows against the republic. But, that lingering doubt in his capabilities is going to remain and people are going to be wondering for quite a while just how capable he is. His mistakes will be scrutinized more heavily by his fellow separatists, and things are going to be uncertain on the Separatist side as well. 

 

So in short, things would be rather hectic on both sides of the fighting and it could really go all sorts of ways. 

Edited by ExileofEnya

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On ‎08‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 12:24 AM, Mongriff said:

With a full bloen war going on that's been raging for the past two decades or so, what is going on with the heroes from the original trilogy? Han and Chewie? Are Luke and Leia born or did Anakin and Padme have some other kids that may be Jedi? Is Anakin back toward the light or is he in a gray area? Or did he fall trying to go after Dooku and Grievous? I'd like to know your opinions to be brought up for this? He's planning on a long campaign.

A shame this got derailed so quickly. 

This was pretty much exactly how the MarcyVerse started.

And it's been going since 2013 now.

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On 4/9/2018 at 7:51 PM, Trey489 said:

This was my idea and I'm grateful for all of the ideas and opinions. I'm looking to run this as a long game coming soon I hope.

My group has done a number of campaigns based in a timeline where Mace killed Palpatine before Anakin showed up. We had the Republic split into two factions, one led by Bail Organa, who won the emergency election, who pardoned Windu with the other declaring itself to be the Republic in Exile led by Wilhuff Tarkin, who ran against Organa on a platform of executing Windu and greatly reducing the power and autonomy of the Jedi this led to a series of hot and cold wars between the two Republics and the CIS

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Our group has a sort of divergent time-line. Things happened more or less like they did in cannon up until 5 years BBY, which is when a trio of force sensitives happened to wind up on Tython, once there they found a Shard Jedi Master who had been corrupted by the planet and wanted to recreate the Jedi Order, smash the Empire and the Sith as well as anyone not down with her plans. She was a good lier though and good with influence among other things, so she tricked the party into activating a Tho-Yor which she then used to escape and start fighting the Empire. Now she's using her ancient precursor tech to wreck the Empire in the outer Rim and collecting old separatists, hidden Jedi and rebel cells to try to overthrow the Empire. Meanwhile the party is trying to make their way through the galaxy and find some way to take down the ancient evil crystaline being they unleashed on the galaxy.

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On 4/7/2018 at 5:13 PM, ExileofEnya said:

The Butterfly effect is your Best friend.

Winner winner, chicken dinner!

Many moons ago, under the D6 engine, we were playing out of Echo Base just before Empire. Luke goes missing, and the team's Jedi does a wee bit of farseeing, homes in on him straight away and gets him back to base before nightfall.

Without having to rescue Luke, Han is able to depart as intended.

Leia is cut off from her transport by the tunnel collapse. Without the Falcon to get a ride on, she is captured by Vader.

Vader has all the time in the world to set a trap for Luke just how he likes. Bespin makes sense, as its close but not an imperial controlled outpost.

Without Lando's heel/face turn, without a Falcon to escape on, Luke turn to the dark sides.

With a freshly minted Supreme Commander Skywalker at his side Vader whacks his boss.

This continually snowballed all the way to the New Republic era where Thrawn almost but not quite completely kicks the Republic to the curb, if not for the plucky band of Characters who saved the day. So yeah, go ahead and have fun with the smallest things! Pull that one tiny thread that completely unravels the tapestry.

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And so it begins. This Saturday, our group begins the game, and our GM, Trey, allowed for numerous things to be played, expanding the horizon of characters. Although Force-sensitives are allowed, no careers from the Force and Destiny line were permitted. I went so far as to make some additional trooper squad members as NPCs as I wrote up a past. Being a long time GM, I find putting that much effort into my characters as a player makes things more interesting and gives the GM more. I plan to post an update after the first session. Trey and I have been bouncing more ideas back and forth, and quite a few of the ideas presented in this thread seem to have lit up more than a galaxy full for the campaign.

Once again, thank you and don't forget to tip your waitress/.

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