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Syleh Forge

Why only 2?

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So as the title asks, why only 2 flotillas? Because of the tabling rule - i think most of us can agree that this was overboard. ImpII + 4/5 was only going to become a riskier list - same with others, they would only have become riskier, and that much potential weakness in a list is relatively easily exploited.  So why both rules?!?

i believe wholeheartedly that there is a simple reason to this.  Combat Flotillas.  This rule only makes sense in these terms.  Cause as long as the only flotillas in the game are non-combat - who cares if you took 5 with your DoomPickle.  However, since they put a hard cap on the amount of flotillas, it’s got to mean more are coming.

For example, lets say there was no hard cap and the rebels got the Braha-tok that had 1 black out its side, 2 blue out the front, evade/scatter for 28 points. You could potentially take Ackbar, CR-90 + 10 Gunships, which obviously could be overpowered.  However, if you are capped at 2, suddenly rebel flotillas can have dice out the side....but you cant spam them, which is key.

 

i personally believe that the hard cap was installed so that the design space of flotillas could open up, as before - they would have always had to consider how powerful spammed flotillas are, so a combat flotilla would have had to be severely limited.  Now you are paying an automatic cost (Limited), so they can now be designed with less worrying about Ackbar or Thrawn overpowering them, as - you will only be able to take 2 pocket carriers, or 2 pocket gunships, just not 12 pocket gunships while leaving your cr-90 safe across the board.

 

If you arent convinced - no worries, but i believe combat flotillas fits into this puzzle piece, as very little else makes sense.

Edited by Syleh Forge

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1 hour ago, Syleh Forge said:

So as the title asks, why only 2 flotillas? Because of the tabling rule - i think most of us can agree that this was overboard.

 

I completely disagree. The new Flotilla change as well as the Relay change are perfect in my opinion. Its exactly what the game needed. Flotillas are supposed to be small, nimble support ships that are hardly a huge tactical element in your fleet. They are cheap support options and mini-carriers. Thats it.

The way it was before, flottilas were ONE OF THE MAIN TACTICAL ELEMENTS OF THE GAME. Which is complete bull. ISDs, Mon Calamari Cruisers and other combat vessels should fill that role. You shouldnt be able to improve your ISDs or MC80s effectiveness by 100 % or more by just spamming a lot of unarmed or lightly armed transports. Thats not how naval combat works. An Aircraft Carrier doesnt become 100 % more effective by having a fleet of unarmed cargo ships around it. Yeah there is a need and a role for those ships. But you need combat vessels and a good mix of all types of craft to be efficient. Not overspecializing in one non-combatant type of ship.

But because of the "alternating activations between players"-mechanic the spamming of Flotillas somehow implied that those were THE HEART OF YOUR FLEET. Im really glad that they limited them to 2 per fleet. 3 would already have been too much. And beside that, i have 3 GR75s and never used 3 of them. Just never felt necessary to me, because i always used them the way they should be used: As cheap support options and SMALL activation advantage. I just really dislike spamming stuff. Takes away the tactical element of making different elements in your fleet work together. Sure 3 Arquitens and such are fun but fleets only composed of one type of ship? Just gets boring when its used so often, like it was with Flotillas at tournaments.

 

Well done FFG, please dont change anything back.

Edited by >kkj

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I really wish there was a solution other than a hard cap. I had an amazing sato fleet that needed 3 Grs to push squads. No avoidance tactics, they all did work. I feel a hard cap really screw over a very niche set of lists that had more flotillas but used them properly and not as spam. I've revised it to be tested with less squads and a Nebulon instead, but I really don't think it will be as effective. same activation, less squadron push.

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1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I really wish there was a solution other than a hard cap. I had an amazing sato fleet that needed 3 Grs to push squads. No avoidance tactics, they all did work. I feel a hard cap really screw over a very niche set of lists that had more flotillas but used them properly and not as spam. I've revised it to be tested with less squads and a Nebulon instead, but I really don't think it will be as effective. same activation, less squadron push.

Eh, a Hammerhead ain't that much more expensive than a flotilla - only a single squadron more, which you'd have to drop anyway owing to reduced squadron rating.

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Just now, xanderf said:

Eh, a Hammerhead ain't that much more expensive than a flotilla - only a single squadron more, which you'd have to drop anyway owing to reduced squadron rating.

18 points is enough to harm a fleet already running bare minimum of squadron cost. that's 2 10 point Y wings that have to go. The squadron Anti-ship effectiveness has just been halved. 

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48 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I really wish there was a solution other than a hard cap. I had an amazing sato fleet that needed 3 Grs to push squads. No avoidance tactics, they all did work. I feel a hard cap really screw over a very niche set of lists that had more flotillas but used them properly and not as spam. I've revised it to be tested with less squads and a Nebulon instead, but I really don't think it will be as effective. same activation, less squadron push.

Why? You hardly only had 3 GR75s in your fleet and no other ships in it. Aside from activation spam, all the GR75s can do is activate 2 or 3 squadrons (4 potentially ik) and use fleet support, which are not THAT important to the game. And you already have two slots for fleet support. As you said, you just have to use a small fighter ship in a hybrid role like a Nebulon B or even a Raider. I mean, heck even a 36 point Hammerhead can do a flottilas job at commanding squadrons.

Edited by >kkj

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You gotta see the big picture. Yes, other small ships could fill the roll at a slightly higher cost, and while that cost does greatly effect the already limited squadron in the fleet, the other detrimental effects come with command value, maneuver chart, defense layout, upgrade slots.

 

I think people are far too used to flotillas just being spam. They have a very unique profile in this game and can be very useful for more than just activating. 

 

And im sorry but I vastly disagree about fleet support’s importance to the game. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, >kkj said:

Why? You hardly only had 3 GR75s in your fleet and no others ships in it. Aside from activation spam, all the GR75s can do is activate 2 or 3 squadrons (4 potentially ik) and use fleet support, which are not THAT important to the game. And you already have two slots for fleet support. As you said, you just have to use a small fighter ship in a hybrid role like a Nebulon B or even a Raider. I mean, heck even a 36 point Hammerhead can do a flottilas job at commanding squadrons.

I had 4 Gozantis in my previous tourney fleet, they can definitely buff up fleets mechanically to be better than would otherwise be possible. They can also degrade enemy fleets extraordinarily well if you spam slicer teams,  which I demonstrated repeatedly during the last Vassal World Cup. Their ubiquity was due as much to their versatility as it was to their cheap cost. 

I think this was to both limit activation spam and make competition fleets more visually and thematically appealing in the long run. Competition lists we're staying to look less like naval Armadas (see what I did there?) and more like ships being lead out of dry dock by tugboats.

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32 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Eh, a Hammerhead ain't that much more expensive than a flotilla - only a single squadron more, which you'd have to drop anyway owing to reduced squadron rating.

Well everything counts at the margins. 18 points more for rebs and 21 points for imps is a lot of squadron.

And a hammerhead doesnt have scatter. So its worth attacking with a single flanking ship like an arquitens. Wheras i never found a usable flanker that was worth sending after the flotilla backline

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Quote

really wish there was a solution other than a hard cap. I had an amazing sato fleet that needed 3 Grs to push squads. No avoidance tactics, they all did work. I feel a hard cap really screw over a very niche set of lists that had more flotillas but used them properly and not as spam. I've revised it to be tested with less squads and a Nebulon instead, but I really don't think it will be as effective. same activation, less squadron push.

There was a good proposal. You can take one flotilla for each non flotilla ship. This solution do not require hard cap and still limits ther amount

Edited by maxster

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11 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

if you spam slicer teams

 

Found your mistake :D But yeah i agree, fleets like the Fish Swarm were just ridiculous and had no thematic appeal to them, they looked more a like a garbage convoy. I had one opponent at a tournament who was just flying 5 GR75s in a line directly away from battle, spamming squadron commands over the whole map via relay and out-activating everyone so that the MC80 could go last first.

Edited by >kkj

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51 minutes ago, Derpzilla88 said:

FFG is just following Star Wars law:

"Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice."

Ah, but which is the Master and which the Apprentice?

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3 hours ago, Syleh Forge said:

i personally believe that the hard cap was installed so that the design space of flotillas could open up, as before - they would have always had to consider how powerful spammed flotillas are, so a combat flotilla would have had to be severely limited.  Now you are paying an automatic cost (Limited), so they can now be designed with less worrying about Ackbar or Thrawn overpowering them, as - you will only be able to take 2 pocket carriers, or 2 pocket gunships, just not 12 pocket gunships while leaving your cr-90 safe across the board.

 

If you arent convinced - no worries, but i believe combat flotillas fits into this puzzle piece, as very little else makes sense.

I agree, at least partially.  I believe FFG will introduce "combat flotillas" into Armada, if only because "flotilla" is basically it's own ship class (or if you prefer, a sub-class of the small base ship), and each faction has only one type to choose from (fine, one type with 2 variants).  A more combat-oriented flotilla without a cap could potentially create a very shooty version of some of the flotilla spam seen now.  I DO think the hard cap of 2 seems a little harsh, and agree that 1 for 1 versus capital ships seems better.  However, I admit this may be a hard-counter to anticipated problems (probably Ackbar, lol) with upcoming waves. 

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18 hours ago, Derpzilla88 said:

FFG is just following Star Wars law:

"Always two there are, no more, no less. A master and an apprentice."

If this was the case I think it would make more sense to have the cap be 1 flotilla for each capital ship. personally I really think the cap is all that needed to happen because with the nerf of relay flotillas have to put themselves in harms way anyway now, but I will have to play with the new rule set to pass final judgment.

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I think this was 1 change too many. With all the other rules in this FAQ/tourney doc, the 2 cap isn’t needed.  If there is some sort of combat flotilla coming out then I’m ok with this rule but it is still clunky. 

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