New Relay

[xanderf 6,788]

8 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Does this even start to stack with relay?

No.

How do you figure?

Quasar Fire in map corner, Centicore in middle of table range 5+ away, shuttle at medium range of Centicore and pair of TIE Defenders at range 3 further out from the shuttle.  Quasar Fire activates.  nulay shuttle checks to see 'if it is range to be activated' - while it's beyond range 5 of the Quasar Fire, Centicore says it is in range to be activated if in medium range of the Centicore.  Which it is, so it is "in range to be activated".  That's the condition on the card for relay to work, so it can relay out to the TIE Defenders.

[Thraug 1,066]

Yep, looks valid to me.

[Madaghmire 7,276]

17 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

"Can activate" is not the same thing as "in range to be activated", though.  That's the crux of the issue.

And this right here, is where I disagree. If you are being activated by a ship, you are in range to be activated. I see no difference if that extension which allows for you to be activated is created by a relay bubble or by boosted comms. Every single person saying otherwise has created a distinction based on nothing. There is no such thing as activation range as a clearly defined term. 

 

[Green Knight 9,746]

16 hours ago, xanderf said:

How do you figure?

Quasar Fire in map corner, Centicore in middle of table range 5+ away, shuttle at medium range of Centicore and pair of TIE Defenders at range 3 further out from the shuttle.  Quasar Fire activates.  nulay shuttle checks to see 'if it is range to be activated' - while it's beyond range 5 of the Quasar Fire, Centicore says it is in range to be activated if in medium range of the Centicore.  Which it is, so it is "in range to be activated".  That's the condition on the card for relay to work, so it can relay out to the TIE Defenders.

I figure you resolve Centicore. Or you resolve the Lambda. Not start to resolve one, then 'chain' in another card.

[ShoutingMan 100]

Does a "Relay" shuttle have to be activated to use its Relay effect? Is Relay is consequence of being activated?

[Drasnighta 26,832]

18 minutes ago, ShoutingMan said:

Does a "Relay" shuttle have to be activated to use its Relay effect? Is Relay is consequence of being activated?

No and No

[ShoutingMan 100]

Thanks. 

 

The talk of "chaining" implied relay was a tied to activation. That was the only way I could see how relay-chaining might possible work.

[xanderf 6,788]

3 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I figure you resolve Centicore. Or you resolve the Lambda. Not start to resolve one, then 'chain' in another card.

I don't think Centicore is a 'resolve', though - it just adds area to the map that is included in the range of the activation.

IE., I'm sure we all agree that Boosted Comms does increase the range that relay can work from 'medium' to 'long', right?

...Centicore works the same way, just changing the bubble of where the activation can occur.

(nulay would even sort of work the same way, except for its condition that the relay ship has to also 'be in range' of the ship's activation, which is a caveat that Centicore does not have)

[TheEasternKing 607]

Xan, it specifically says on Centicore, "resolves".

 

But GK, I am not seeing why they both are not legal resolutions, afaik there is no limit on multiple card interactions, just timing triggers which limit use, IE usually once per action of X type, rerolls etc. 

If a Lambada is within range of Centicore, there is no reason why it cannot use its relay ability on other squadrons outside Centicore or the activating ship.

ISD activates with a squadron dial to resolve, Lambada is within range of Centicore, but outside the ISD's activation range, it is a legal activation due to Centicore,
Relay is next checked : Is the Lambada in range to be activated? yes/no? Yes it is in range to be activated, Relay is legal for use at this point.

It is legal because multiple interactions are legal for resolution, and the player decides the order of that resolution, in the same timing window.

Edited April 7, 2018 by TheEasternKing

[Frimmel 2,593]

In my opinion it is one or the other. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Frimmel

[elbmc1969 182]

Occam's Razor: The point of Nulay is to prevent flotillas from hiding and to reduce the huge effectiveness of Relay. Why would the developers allow chaining, which is essentially just a tax on unlimited-range Nulay? (Boosted Comms + range 3 + range 3 = about as much of the tabletop as you're going to care about.)

[elbmc1969 182]

Who's going to show up at Worlds with Centicore and 2 Lambdas, try it both ways, and see how the TO rules?

[xanderf 6,788]

3 minutes ago, elbmc1969 said:

Occam's Razor: The point of Nulay is to prevent flotillas from hiding and to reduce the huge effectiveness of Relay. Why would the developers allow chaining, which is essentially just a tax on unlimited-range Nulay? (Boosted Comms + range 3 + range 3 = about as much of the tabletop as you're going to care about.)

Even assuming relay to relay is allowed,  it still cuts in half the number of squadrons you can activate as half your lambdas need to hang back away from the fighters to pass a relay on to the mingling lambdas.  Nevermind the increased difficulty in organizing that, as well as the weakness of the list - if you attack the lambda hanging out in the middle of nowhere, with no nearby squadrons of its own, and kill it...suddenly the entire advanced fighter wing is cut off and useless.  So...total possible effect cut in half, vastly harder to arrange, causes the entire wing to have a MASSIVE Achilles' heel - a single weak point that you can attack and cripple the whole thing...

That still makes for an effective nerf, IMHO.

But...even if the intention is to prevent relay-to-relay chaining...Centicore is itself worded differently.  While 2/3s of the paragraph is identical, the nulay does have the distinction of a middle phrase '...if you are in range to be activated...' that Centicore lacks - which surely points to some difference between them.  I mean, what would be the point of that line if it had no meaning at all, relay-to-relay chaining doesn't work, and Centicore works the same way as relay?

[thecactusman17 3,192]

On 4/6/2018 at 1:03 PM, Drasnighta said:

... i need to be paid for what I do...

 

Cash, Credit and Whiskey accepted.

Keep the Pelta.  Or sell it.

[AegisGrimm 284]

Here's how I interpret Relay:

Relay X. (When a friendly ship resolves a [Squadron] command, if you are in range [of the ship] to be activated, up to X of the squadrons it activates can be at distance 1–3 of you.)

Italics are my implied emphasis.  'You' means a specific single squad with Relay.  I think it would have solved all the chaining confusion if it were written that way.

[TheEasternKing 607]

Yet that is not what is said on the new errata card for relay.

 

I fail to see what all the fuss is about, if your opponent wants to try chaining relays, he/she is going to have potentially a number of squadrons that are in great danger of being stranded outside activation range, I'm totally fine with someone risking that much for a potential pay off, it is a far far cry from Flotillas activating squads on the other side of the table.

[Ardaedhel 10,844]

4 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

I fail to see what all the fuss is about, if your opponent wants to try chaining relays, he/she is going to have potentially a number of squadrons that are in great danger of being stranded outside activation range, I'm totally fine with someone risking that much for a potential pay off, it is a far far cry from Flotillas activating squads on the other side of the table.

Agreed, but irrelevant here. It's not about the balance, it's about RAW.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

On 7/4/2018 at 9:46 PM, TheEasternKing said:

Xan, it specifically says on Centicore, "resolves".

And what the [command icon]: meant? I don't check it for a long time. Wasn't it something like "when you resolve this command..."?

EDIT: I skipped the first paragraph from xanderf it seems. that explain how I lost myself in the conversation 

Edited April 9, 2018 by ovinomanc3r

[Frimmel 2,593]

On 4/8/2018 at 8:26 AM, TheEasternKing said:

Yet that is not what is said on the new errata card for relay.

 

I fail to see what all the fuss is about, if your opponent wants to try chaining relays, he/she is going to have potentially a number of squadrons that are in great danger of being stranded outside activation range, I'm totally fine with someone risking that much for a potential pay off, it is a far far cry from Flotillas activating squads on the other side of the table.

The fuss is about making sure everyone has largely the same concept of the rules. The guys who want to break things like this always come back the next week with something where it does matter that they're trying to twist the rules. You gave in once to avoid an argument and just get on with things and they'll try it again as well. Or maybe more has the same concept of the spirit of the rules. 

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

What "in range to be activated" means?

[Tokra 2,147]

On 7.4.2018 at 3:43 PM, Green Knight said:

I figure you resolve Centicore. Or you resolve the Lambda. Not start to resolve one, then 'chain' in another card.

I am not so sure about this.

The new relay says:

When a friendly ship resolves a Squadron command, if you are in range to be activated, up to 2 of the squadrons it activates can be at distance 1–3 of you.

Centicore says:

When another friendly ship resolves a SQ command, up to 2 of the squadrons it activates can be at close-medium range of you

Now if a ship is going to resolve a squadron command, and the shuttle is near the centicore but not in range of the active ship, what will happen:
Any squadron in range of the active ship and within close-medium range of the centicore are in range to be activated. Even the shuttle is in range to be activated. There is no word that the shuttle has to be in range close-medium or close-long to the active ship. It just have to be in range to be activated. And this is fulfilled.

This is why i would say that the active ship can use the relay from the shuttle via the Centicore.

[Kendraam 230]

I think 'range' is key here - 'Range' is a specific concept measured by the range ruler thus I would say you can't chain as the 2nd relay squad isn't within the correct range to be activated. Sure, you can argue the 2nd squad could in theory be activated but if itself isn't in 'Range' then it can't.

And regarding Centicore it is specifically referring the the actual squads being activated so, no it can't be chained if those specific squads are not in close-medium of Centicore.

As usual, it's all a bit grey and one interpretation could be as valid as another!

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

3 minutes ago, Tokra said:

I am not so sure about this.

The new relay says:

 

Centicore says:

 

Now if a ship is going to resolve a squadron command, and the shuttle is near the centicore but not in range of the active ship, what will happen:
Any squadron in range of the active ship and within close-medium range of the centicore are in range to be activated. Even the shuttle is in range to be activated. There is no word that the shuttle has to be in range close-medium or close-long to the active ship. It just have to be in range to be activated. And this is fulfilled.

This is why i would say that the active ship can use the relay from the shuttle via the Centicore.

Actually Boosted Coms points to that isn't it?

It doesn't say your activation range is close-long. It says it can activate at close-range. Centicore also says it can activate at close-medium of Centicore.

What bothers me is the up to two limitation. Could be possible to activate 6 squadrons through three Lambdas at close-medium of Centicore? All three would be in range but technically I could activate only two of them, not the three.

 

To me, the simplest way to resolve all this is as follows:

Neither relay nor Centicore change the range of activation. They just bypass the range limitation allowing you to activate squadrons that accomplish specific requirements: being at distance 3 / close-mediun range of a lambda* / Centicore. In other words, Centicore allows you to activate squadrons at close-medium range of Centicore, if you don't activate the Lambda you are not resolving Centicore title. The same for chained Lambdas. The further lambda is not in range of activation, it is in range of relay.

The only problem I see to simply take this is boosted coms, which is not different from Centicore or at least I don't see the difference. 

[Tokra 2,147]

8 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Actually Boosted Coms points to that isn't it?

It doesn't say your activation range is close-long. It says it can activate at close-range. Centicore also says it can activate at close-medium of Centicore.

What bothers me is the up to two limitation. Could be possible to activate 6 squadrons through three Lambdas at close-medium of Centicore? All three would be in range but technically I could activate only two of them, not the three.

For this i would say no. Centicore let you activate 2 squadrons. You activate the first via relay, you activate the second via relay. After this the shuttles are not in range to be activated, becaues the Centicore effect is being used up.

[ovinomanc3r 4,437]

10 minutes ago, Tokra said:

For this i would say no. Centicore let you activate 2 squadrons. You activate the first via relay, you activate the second via relay. After this the shuttles are not in range to be activated, becaues the Centicore effect is being used up.

But that only has sense if these activations replace those granted by Centicore and relay doesn't do that. After these activation you didn't activate a single squadron at close medium range of Centicore so you didn't fulfill it's restriction.