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10 hours ago, Daigotsu Arashi said:

Wait to tsuke goings nuts

Real talk: Considering that Wick's story was clearly meant to END with the second Day of Thunder, I've long maintained that the Tsuke-ravaged Phoenix and the "Togashi's plan is complete, now what?" Dragon probably should have merged....

Edited by Shiba Gunichi

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1 hour ago, Daigotsu Arashi said:

 

Yeah, you're all correct, mantis are descendants of osano wo, and had multiples names in history. But in this reebot people wants things right now something that taked a long time to happen. Now Mantis are a minor clan that the rest of rokugan only tolerate it presence for trade, you don't want a mantis in your court.

The first mantis character is a shugenja and we know in "this time" there are not famous because of them.We don't know if the alliance of three men happened. 

Dare I ask what the Fox-Sparrow-Wasp alliance has to do with the Mantis?

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I mean, they've already shown us the clan is making a bid for Great Clan status. I don't think it's going to happen soon, but I don't see why the day of thunder needs to be the reason. I hope to see them join the Clan War in force and show the other clans they're worthy of respect. I also hope the Clan War and Day of Thunder are vastly different with major changes leading up to them. Much as I loved Toturi's army I don't feel that's the way to go. I'm fully on board with the Shogunate idea.

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On 4/10/2018 at 11:53 AM, Tonbo Karasu said:

Dare I ask what the Fox-Sparrow-Wasp alliance has to do with the Mantis?

The Three Man Alliance was the example Yoritomo used to inspire the other minor clans to ally with him during the Clan War, by demonstrating that while each was a minor power individually by coming together and sharing resources they were able to stand against one of the great clans, and together they could have a greater impact.  Also two of the three members were key members of the Yoritomo's Alliance and eventually swore fealty to the Mantis and became key families in the Great Clan.

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Hmm, I would love to see the Mantis clan as a playable clan and so on, but I am not sure if it is ok to put it out soon or not.

 

At the same time I would love to see different chances in the story! Why not? I am an old fan, but FFG is doing a great job with all the story, very well written: so let them do what they want. Also with tournament always playing a main role in the game, we can also try to change more if we dare enough ;D. For example I will have no problem to see the Mantis clan be a part of the Crab (marriage?). I will just wait to see how the story will evolve, without think too much about the old versione.

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I've been away from the game for a long time, mostly due to the way the Mantis were treated at the end of AEG's reign. One thing I would be loathe to see would be a repeat of the absorption of the Wasp and the Centipede. If the Mantis want to become a great clan, more power to them but please do it on your own this time. Sure, have the other Minor Clans help out in battles and whatever wars they start but I disliked the way the Tsuruchi and Moshi families lost their identities.

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Now that would be interesting.  If Wasp remained independent, I honestly wouldn't know who to support, seeing as how the Tsuruchi family was pretty much the only reason I ever went Mantis.

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6 hours ago, Dirty Rat said:

I've been away from the game for a long time, mostly due to the way the Mantis were treated at the end of AEG's reign. One thing I would be loathe to see would be a repeat of the absorption of the Wasp and the Centipede. If the Mantis want to become a great clan, more power to them but please do it on your own this time. Sure, have the other Minor Clans help out in battles and whatever wars they start but I disliked the way the Tsuruchi and Moshi families lost their identities.

 

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Now that would be interesting.  If Wasp remained independent, I honestly wouldn't know who to support, seeing as how the Tsuruchi family was pretty much the only reason I ever went Mantis.

 

I always felt that the Tsuruchi were pretty distinct in the old game.  The Moshi lost alot of flavor after Tsudao passed.  And that idiocy with Yakamo and Hitomi.  But alot of the focus going to the Yoritomo can be attributed to the story team at AEG (I would have liked some Kitsune stories myself, but they never learned/tried to write them).

Unfortunately, some of those writers from the old story team are now part of the new team.  Have they learned from past mistakes or will they take a pass on doing justice to Minor Clan(s) with such complex character (and Characters)?

 

Edited by Coyote Walks
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23 minutes ago, Nitenman said:

Specially, mantis got the moshi to add a shugenja family, then came the Yoritomo shugenja. So no need for a shugenja family, they are some showcased already (Tejinka). 

Mantis always had Shugenja they were just very focused on Storm Magic and were the minority in the Clan.  The Moshi absorption was not just about securing a Shugenja family (note they weren't a very large family to begin with) but securing a coastal foothold, and the allegiance of a respected family that would be more acceptable to the more traditional clans.  

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20 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Mantis always had Shugenja they were just very focused on Storm Magic and were the minority in the Clan.  The Moshi absorption was not just about securing a Shugenja family (note they weren't a very large family to begin with) but securing a coastal foothold, and the allegiance of a respected family that would be more acceptable to the more traditional clans.  

Lorewise, maybe, with a bit of retcon and AEG Fiat. 

Mechanic wise (old card game and RPG) they needed a fully fledged Shugenja family, who IMHO was very gimmicky in the end to the Mantis, and less useful and purposeful when 3rd ed dropped the first Tejinka and other stormriders. 

As Tejinka have already been introduced now in the lore, no need to shoehorn the Moshi. Even a with a wedding Yoritomo/Amika. 

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17 minutes ago, Nitenman said:

Lorewise, maybe, with a bit of retcon and AEG Fiat. 

Mechanic wise (old card game and RPG) they needed a fully fledged Shugenja family, who IMHO was very gimmicky in the end to the Mantis, and less useful and purposeful when 3rd ed dropped the first Tejinka and other stormriders. 

As Tejinka have already been introduced now in the lore, no need to shoehorn the Moshi. Even a with a wedding Yoritomo/Amika. 

No retcon, Crimson and Jade had Mantis Shugenja as a card and Scorpion Clan Coup gave us Ranbe as well as early RPG talked about the connection between the Mantis and Osano-Wo.  It was down played to give the other families a specialty (although the only early Centipede character before the absorption was Wakiza so more an issue of cards in isolation at the time).

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In old L5R I played Mantis and Lion. Personally I would agree that if the Mantis achieve Great Clan status again it would be better for them to form their own families instead of just absorbing as many other minor clans again. As fun as the Mantis were with Blackened Sky, I felt it ate up some of their unique flavor being somewhat spread out in lands with the minor clans they absorbed. Yoritomo's Alliance was fun and flavorful, but as the Great Clan I felt it should have kept focusing on the uniquely Mantis things. Which it did eventually do, just with some distractions at times.

With that said, I felt like the Centipede absorption was the one that made the most sense. The lore was strong there in the presentation. Mantis could manage to maintain the coastal Centipede despite splitting the Crane lands since those lands were in a valley surrounded by mountains. The respectable Moshi brought a lot of clout to the Mantis they otherwise could not replicate in the Yoritomo family.

With the Wasp it always felt a bit off. Tsuruchi while trustworthy and keeping to the cause of elevating the minor clans was also very independent and greatly valued the freedom of him and his band. The Mantis pushing into to Wasp territory is very open with a narrow supply line to connect a long stretch of inland territory. The Wasp and Mantis both buck the usual trends of samurai, but in different ways so i felt in narrowed both of their flavor.

The Fox of course was controversial when the absorption finally happened. The issue of land locked, being surrounded, and narrow supply lines is an even greater issue when adding the Fox lands to the Mantis. The Kitsune had a very distinct flavor and unique magic, but in a lot of ways what they brought to the table was  heavily overlapped with the Moshi.

Either way I am excited to see what the Mantis bring to the lore and cards as the Elemental Cycle unfolds. Yoritomo could be a 5 cost character.  That could have an interesting effect on the environment if his capability is broadly liked. I also wonder if Mantis remain neutral cards if we might see a Support of the Mantis role card that works differently than the model we have seen for the greats clans with the Support of the Phoenix role card.

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The Watanabe family, a vassal family of the Yoritomo, which should currently exist would be an interesting one to focus on for the Mantis. Publicly they are the Kobune builders, they make all the boats for the Mantis and possibly some other clans. Privately, they harbor the remnants of the old Gusai family which is a secret to nearly everyone, including the Watanabe Daimyo when Old5R ceased to be.

Edited by Dirty Rat

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On 4/15/2018 at 9:01 AM, Schmoozies said:

The Moshi absorption was not just about securing a Shugenja family (note they weren't a very large family to begin with) but securing a coastal foothold, and the allegiance of a respected family that would be more acceptable to the more traditional clans.  

Which culminated in the Moshi basically coughing up all of that. AEG was starting to address that identity crisis when the IP was sold, but... the Moshi absorbtion ultimately failed to deliver on the bolded part because they spent so much of their post-absorbtion time acting like their Yoritomo masters.

 

Part of the Borgitomo backlash was that every time a minor clan joined the Mantis, its identity went down the pipes in a hurry. The Tsuruchi apparently stopped breaking their swords (and the Code of the Wasp all but vanished), the Moshi went from being pious and conservative matriarchs to lightning-slinging Thunderettes. The Fox... good lord, the Fox, after specific textual in-character promises that their identity would be respected basically never showed up in their clan colors or old character again.

 

Hopefully, if FFG does go the route of "Minor Clans join Yoritomo's Mantis," they'll have a better handle on what made those clans worth adding to the Mantis at all.

Edited by Shiba Gunichi

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3 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

The Tsuruchi apparently stopped breaking their swords (and the Code of the Wasp all but vanished),

I did find it somewhat odd that in Ivory/20F, one of the best items to put on Tsuruchi personalities was the Storm-Forged Blade...

Edited by JJ48

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I wouldn't expect the Wasp and Centipede to stay independent. They have Mantis clan fans just as much as other fans hate that it happened. But I do think it will be handled better by FFG since they know it's such a controversial bit of the old lore. I wouldn't mind what people are suggesting, I just think the Tsuruchi at the very least are as iconic to the great clan as the yoritomo themselves. i'll give the centipede and fox weren't used well at all, but hopefully they can be this time.

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