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Crawfskeezen

Well what do we have here?

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Alright folks,

This one totally passed me by. I guess I just wasn't paying attention? Well that's exactly it.  I've been playing X-wing and Armada since Core release and Wave 1 and played Imperial Assault too but it never really pulled me in but I started a new job recently and haven't been playing more than a couple times a month for the past year. I've been off the FFG community and out of the loop. THIS however has got me happier than a kid in a candy store. 

I just ordered the core set online because its sold out everywhere around me (or its just not been delivered) so I'll have that in a week or so. But I'm very excited to play, so much so that I'm on the FFG rules site, the wiki, the reddit and Fab's generator toying with lists already. I've been reading a ton on here too because you folks know what's up and love to share (which I do appreciate) which has been a huge help and had also been satiating my want for this game. 

I've been playing 40k since 3rd edition and Warhammer Fantasy for almost as log so I'm no stranger to this kind of game but I want to know the community's take so far. Just a few questions:

1. How long will the core set last me gaming wise? Should I go ahead and get more sets now, or can I wait a bit? (In X-wing for example, playing the core set didn't do it for me, that extra TIE/X-wing/TIE Advanced/Y-wing made all the difference)

2. What percentage of your games have depended on heroes? Can the power of your regular army outweigh a powerful hero? Some people have said that Vader sucks, some say he's good. I've seen videos supporting both claims. What situations have arisen that affect the heroes contribution or lack-there-of to a game?

3. I've watched a few games on Youtube so I've seen some play. But how does the play flow? Are there any tips to keep things moving in a smooth way?

4. I'm not a great painter. I don't necessarily enjoy painting either. I've watched all of Sorastro's videos (great work by the way man) but I'm curious how people are playing painted vs unpainted models. Obviously, painted models look way better, but is there a critical nature in the community towards unpainted models. That said, I will paint the minis, but that takes me a bit and for the moment I just want to play.

5. Terrain. Have people been using their terrain from other tabletop war games (40K for example) with good effect?

6. Anything else. Any suggestions or tips to getting into the game are great. I think FFG is doing a great job building games and making minis so I'm into it. 

I know jumping in and playing a game is going to properly teach me what the game feels like but I'd love a leg up on that. Thanks for your time.

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1 hour ago, Crawfskeezen said:

1. How long will the core set last me gaming wise? Should I go ahead and get more sets now, or can I wait a bit? (In X-wing for example, playing the core set didn't do it for me, that extra TIE/X-wing/TIE Advanced/Y-wing made all the difference)

2. What percentage of your games have depended on heroes? Can the power of your regular army outweigh a powerful hero? Some people have said that Vader sucks, some say he's good. I've seen videos supporting both claims. What situations have arisen that affect the heroes contribution or lack-there-of to a game?

3. I've watched a few games on Youtube so I've seen some play. But how does the play flow? Are there any tips to keep things moving in a smooth way?

4. I'm not a great painter. I don't necessarily enjoy painting either. I've watched all of Sorastro's videos (great work by the way man) but I'm curious how people are playing painted vs unpainted models. Obviously, painted models look way better, but is there a critical nature in the community towards unpainted models. That said, I will paint the minis, but that takes me a bit and for the moment I just want to play.

5. Terrain. Have people been using their terrain from other tabletop war games (40K for example) with good effect?

6. Anything else. Any suggestions or tips to getting into the game are great. I think FFG is doing a great job building games and making minis so I'm into it. 

I know jumping in and playing a game is going to properly teach me what the game feels like but I'd love a leg up on that. Thanks for your time.

1. the core set lasts for a few games, not more. if you use 2 central los blockers then those games can still be quite interesting though. get a second set quickly imo, the rebels will also need a bit more to get to 800 points. the value for money of the core set is great!

2. the core set heroes will have strong impact on any game they appear in, becasue they are very powerful. i don't think it's possible to put a cerain percentage on their input though, that depends on too many variables. the next 2 leaders will be much cheaper, primarily supporters and perform quite differently. i don't think any leaders outweigh basic troops though, they just have different uses.

3. tipps for smooth play? experience i guess? the game is very well designed and flows well as it is. you just need a bit of practice.

4. for the moment unpainted minis are no problem at all. most people are just getting into the game, no need to worry about that. ;)

5. i play at a local gaming club and we have terrain for many different tabletop games. almost everything can be used with legion and works pretty well. follow the advice and fill about 25% of the board with terrain.

6. not much to add really. if you know tabletop-wargames you will get into it really quickly. the initiative/order-system and the missiondesign-minigame are especially welldesigned. enjoy the game! it's really good. :)

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Hello and welcome! Good too see the community growing :)

1. If an X-wing core set was not enough for you, go ahead and buy 2 cores of Legion (and then ATST/T-47 if you won't starve at the end of the month because of it). I've played both X-wing and Armada a lot, and out of these 3 X-wing loses the least when playing on smaller points than suggested. Armada loses a lot (basically the whole order of activation business), but Legion looses even more.

2. I'd say heroes are and will remain the crucial element of the game. Right now, the best counter to either Vader or Luke is another Vader or Luke. Also, loosing a commander might spell disaster for your forces (they panic much easier), if they're dead you can't play their command cards, that provide some powerful and often game-changing effects.  So yeah, they contribute a lot. That said, it is possible for non-hero units to combat them. You should expect some casualties, though. The fact that you saw claims for Vader both rocking and not is in my opinion a good proof of the game's balance and it being easy to learn, hard to master (Vader, Speeder Bikes and T-47 have the highest learning curve i'd say).

3. The rules are streamlined enough that the flow of the game is naturally smooth. The start might be rocky, but that's true for any game ;) The game definitely feels more dynamic than Armada. Close do X-wing, I'd say, but obviously longer. If you have prior wargame or SW-FFG-game experience, you should be fine. You will call Aim token Target Lock, Dodge token an Evade and Suppression token a Stress, but it will pass.

4. Depends on your local group. I'd say most of the time you should be fine with playing with unpainted minis, even at Organised Play events.

5. Simply yes. Most of the terrain will do fine, though Legion tends to go better with a little bit more on the table than a standard 40k game.

6. Get the core (or two) and go play it. Minis are easy to assemble and you don't need a lot to get started.

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As for point #2:

I have only played three games of Legion using Tabletop Battle Simulator. In the third game, my opponent used Leia and I used the promotion rules to have one of my regular stormtrooper squads act as the Commander. I won, 4VP to 1, and Leia was gone by turn 4 or 5. 

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18 minutes ago, srMontresor said:

As for point #2:

I have only played three games of Legion using Tabletop Battle Simulator. In the third game, my opponent used Leia and I used the promotion rules to have one of my regular stormtrooper squads act as the Commander. I won, 4VP to 1, and Leia was gone by turn 4 or 5. 

I believe you know this, but the OP might not, so to avoid confusion:

The rules actually does not allow you to build your force without a commander - you need at least 1. Without the Commander-type unit, required by army building rules you cannot build a hand of command cards, as each card can be picked only once, you need 7 of them and only 4 are not connected to a specific commander unit (i.e. you have to get that specific commander to include them, and he/she has to be on the table for you to play them). The promotion rules are there to explain how issuing commands works while all of your commanders are dead. Then again, in friendly games one can do as one wishes, as long as he has his/hers opponent's consent.

With that in mind, one game is hardly any proof for anything ;)

Edited by Shanturin

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10 minutes ago, Shanturin said:

I believe you know this, but the OP might not, so to avoid confusion:

The rules actually does not allow you to build your force without a commander - you need at least 1. Without the Commander-type unit, required by army building rules you cannot build a hand of command cards, as each card can be picked only once, you need 7 of them and only 4 are not connected to a specific commander unit (i.e. you have to get that specific commander to include them, and he hes to be in play for you to play them). The promotion rules are there to explain how issuing commands works while all of your commanders are dead. Then again, in friendly games one can do as one wishes, as long as he has his/hers opponent's consent.

With that in mind, one game is hardly any proof for anything ;)

Quite right on both points but, as to the last point, that's why I specified it was just one of three games. The reader can do with my anecdotal observation as they wish.
 

Additional context—this was the first game in 4 out of a campaign. We designed a 1,600 point list first, using the rules for large games. As we ruled that we have to divide our forces before each battle,  this meant our two commanders divide between three forces (all survivors return for the 4th battle). So, by necessity, we have to use the promotion rules in one battle. As both my opponent and I don't really care for the hero units, we'll likely use the rule in other games too. Tabletop Simulator automatically fills your hand out with duplicate cards when you don't have enough to make 7 individual ones. The same thing happened when we previously had a Veers vs Leia match (as there was only one of Veers's cards in the simulator at that stage).

Edited by srMontresor
Eliminated some infelicities in expression.

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As for Vader being Meh, or OMG! Vader is really powerful, the only problem is his speed. If he can get in contact with anything he will end it quick with the Red saber of death. Getting there is the problem, I feel that if Vader had a compulsory move 1 or at the very least a command card boost with movement in someway, he would be better off. Against Luke though, Vader gets owned. Yeah Luke is not rolling red dice, but black can be nasty as well especially if the command card "Son of Skywalker" is used. Which will allow Luke to get that Double attack in and nine times out of ten probably kill Vader. Not to mention that Vader clocks in at 200pts base to Luke's 160 which will make a single core box game feel really bad for Imperials, since Vader is half the list even before any upgrades. But I still love Vader, and it makes for some really thematic feeling battles when he and Luke lock sabers.

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4 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

split 2 cores with a friend...you get one side and he/she gets the other. 
 

+1 to this

You get 4 copies of the relevant upgrades in the Core so you don't miss out on anything by going this route.

I went with this and then purchased an AT-RT and 2x T-47's since I took the Rebel side. Next purchase will be Leia and 2x Fleet Troopers in May (we hope).  That will give me 6 Corps units, 2 Commanders, 2 Heavy's, and 3 Support units until Han and the Commandos come out.  Most likely I'll pick up Han and 2x Commandos since the Commandos give you 2 units per box.

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Welcome to the game, one core is not enough for more than a few games.  800 points feels a lot more exciting.

 

I had some gift cards so I bought 2 cores and 1 of each expansion since I am providing both sides and I feel like I have a lot of flexibility. Last night I ran 3 at-rt’s it was a lot of fun. Dice packs you need dice packs some of the weapons you end up throwing 12-15 dice at one time.

as far as paining, new painter myself and it’s been challenging but worth it, and looks so much better, though not mandatory to enjoy the game.

 

as far as hero’s go, Vader literally won me my first game and I have had Luke in turn 6 melt a squad of stormies on an Objective token allowing me to secure it

Edited by azavander

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10 hours ago, Moore1980 said:

Against Luke though, Vader gets owned. Yeah Luke is not rolling red dice, but black can be nasty as well especially if the command card "Son of Skywalker" is used. Which will allow Luke to get that Double attack in and nine times out of ten probably kill Vader.

I'm hearing it for like a hundredth time and I still don't get it. Luke's two attacks gets an average of 4 hits on Vader (assuming Luke had Aim and Vader had Dodge). That's not nothing, but nowhere near killing Vader. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just never saw it and thus have a hard time imagining it.

10 hours ago, Hidatom said:

split 2 cores with a friend...you get one side and he/she gets the other. 
 

Do that.

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2 minutes ago, Shanturin said:

I'm hearing it for like a hundredth time and I still don't get it. Luke's two attacks gets an average of 4 hits on Vader (assuming Luke had Aim and Vader had Dodge). That's not nothing, but nowhere near killing Vader. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just never saw it and thus have a hard time imagining it.

I think they're pretty decently matched in melee, but I think a big part of Luke's advantage is that he can close the distance with a charge, and then take two attacks with Son of Skywalker right in a row -- for a total of three attacks. If you've managed to push a wound or two through on Vader with your troopers and what not, Luke gets real scary real quick. Plus, variance happens. Who knows, you might die to two swings of the saber.

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Thanks to all who replied: shlominus ,  Shanturin , srMontresor , Moore1980 , Hidatom , NeonWolf , azavander . I do appreciate the feedback.

23 hours ago, shlominus said:

1. the core set lasts for a few games, not more. if you use 2 central los blockers then those games can still be quite interesting though. get a second set quickly imo, the rebels will also need a bit more to get to 800 points. the value for money of the core set is great!

Bang for buck I've been seeing that this is the case.

23 hours ago, Shanturin said:

2. I'd say heroes are and will remain the crucial element of the game. Right now, the best counter to either Vader or Luke is another Vader or Luke. Also, loosing a commander might spell disaster for your forces (they panic much easier), if they're dead you can't play their command cards, that provide some powerful and often game-changing effects.

This is a great point. My Imperial Guard lose their Command Squad regularly and still manage to gun people down. This won't work in Legion, that's cool.

20 hours ago, srMontresor said:

As for point #2:

I have only played three games of Legion using Tabletop Battle Simulator. In the third game, my opponent used Leia and I used the promotion rules to have one of my regular stormtrooper squads act as the Commander. I won, 4VP to 1, and Leia was gone by turn 4 or 5. 

Depending on the quality of Commander it may be able to be worked through, but the core game will necessitate good old fashioned Luke and Anakin.

10 hours ago, Moore1980 said:

As for Vader being Meh, or OMG! Vader is really powerful, the only problem is his speed. If he can get in contact with anything he will end it quick with the Red saber of death. Getting there is the problem, I feel that if Vader had a compulsory move 1 or at the very least a command card boost with movement in someway, he would be better off. Against Luke though, Vader gets owned. Yeah Luke is not rolling red dice, but black can be nasty as well especially if the command card "Son of Skywalker" is used. Which will allow Luke to get that Double attack in and nine times out of ten probably kill Vader. Not to mention that Vader clocks in at 200pts base to Luke's 160 which will make a single core box game feel really bad for Imperials, since Vader is half the list even before any upgrades. But I still love Vader, and it makes for some really thematic feeling battles when he and Luke lock sabers.

So there is a matchup issue here. This is to be considered when trying to line up the father/son play.

10 hours ago, Hidatom said:

split 2 cores with a friend...you get one side and he/she gets the other. 
 

Between my mate and I, I usually just buy it all, so 2 cores it is.

9 hours ago, azavander said:

as far as paining, new painter myself and it’s been challenging but worth it, and looks so much better, though not mandatory to enjoy the game.

Like I said I will paint, it wont be pretty but it will be serviceable. I'm just thinking of the interim period.

 

Thanks again folks. Looking forward to it!!! I'll have to live through the fora and wiki for a week or so but then I shall join your fair ranks.

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8 hours ago, Crawfskeezen said:

Thanks to all who replied: shlominus ,  Shanturin , srMontresor , Moore1980 , Hidatom , NeonWolf , azavander . I do appreciate the feedback.

Bang for buck I've been seeing that this is the case.

This is a great point. My Imperial Guard lose their Command Squad regularly and still manage to gun people down. This won't work in Legion, that's cool.

Depending on the quality of Commander it may be able to be worked through, but the core game will necessitate good old fashioned Luke and Anakin.

So there is a matchup issue here. This is to be considered when trying to line up the father/son play.

Between my mate and I, I usually just buy it all, so 2 cores it is.

Like I said I will paint, it wont be pretty but it will be serviceable. I'm just thinking of the interim period.

 

Thanks again folks. Looking forward to it!!! I'll have to live through the fora and wiki for a week or so but then I shall join your fair ranks.

I'm sorry, I just need to upvote anyone who uses the words "fora" or "stadia."

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8 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

I think they're pretty decently matched in melee, but I think a big part of Luke's advantage is that he can close the distance with a charge, and then take two attacks with Son of Skywalker right in a row -- for a total of three attacks. If you've managed to push a wound or two through on Vader with your troopers and what not, Luke gets real scary real quick. Plus, variance happens. Who knows, you might die to two swings of the saber.

I dunno, my general rule is that if I have weapons with Pierce, I want to be hunting things that aren't immune to pierce. The same attack that slightly annoys Vader could be wiping out 70pt stormtrooper units or 90pt speeder bikes and removing dice, activations, sources of suppression and ways to score objectives. Every time I've put my force user into the enemy force user, it's been very not worth it, even when mine comes out on top.

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The attack granted by Charge is considered an attack per the rules reference, therefore Luke CANNOT use one of his actions to attack again. Son of Skywalker after a Charge would only give him 2 attacks that turn

Edited by Harrier232

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On 4/6/2018 at 2:01 AM, Ailowynn said:

I think they're pretty decently matched in melee, but I think a big part of Luke's advantage is that he can close the distance with a charge, and then take two attacks with Son of Skywalker right in a row -- for a total of three attacks. 

The rules don't allow for that.  A charge allows an attack action and you can only ever make one attack action per activation.  So even with Son of Skywalker you can only take two attacks in a given activation.

So you can charge, which allows you to attack after a move, then use Son of Skywalker to attack a 2nd time... Then you can take your 2nd action.  Although you're most likely better off taking a aim or some other action first, then charging.

Edited by VanorDM

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16 hours ago, VanorDM said:

The rules don't allow for that.  A charge allows an attack action and you can only ever make one attack action per activation.  So even with Son of Skywalker you can only take two attacks in a given activation.

So you can charge, which allows you to attack after a move, then use Son of Skywalker to attack a 2nd time... Then you can take your 2nd action.  Although you're most likely better off taking a aim or some other action first, then charging.

Charge one turn. Next turn, Son of Skywalker. Sorry, should’ve phrased it more clearly. 

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On 4/5/2018 at 3:16 PM, NeonWolf said:

+1 to this

You get 4 copies of the relevant upgrades in the Core so you don't miss out on anything by going this route.

I went with this and then purchased an AT-RT and 2x T-47's since I took the Rebel side. Next purchase will be Leia and 2x Fleet Troopers in May (we hope).  That will give me 6 Corps units, 2 Commanders, 2 Heavy's, and 3 Support units until Han and the Commandos come out.  Most likely I'll pick up Han and 2x Commandos since the Commandos give you 2 units per box.

I went this route as well for the most part, BUT I went with Imperial and purchased an ATST, I had planned on trading Rebels for Imperials at 1st but then decided to keep the Rebels just to have if someone wants to play but have not purchased anything yet, I will probably go ahead and a get a speed cruiser to even the armies up some point wise, but I am really liking the game as a whole thus far!

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