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Line of sight and obscured

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Alright, I've thought about it and I'm adding my 2c.

 

1. The T-47 is pretty high up.  You would look over the top and determine if you are able to see the mini (and part of the base) from the perspective of the T-47.  Assuming yes, LOS has been achieved.

2. Cover dictates that you draw an imaginary line from the base of the attacker to the base of the defender.  If it passes through barricades or terrain it would get cover.  In this case, heavy cover due to the barricade.

3. If the storm trooper would shoot back, the T-47 would get no benefit from the barricade, because vehicles don't benefit from them as cover.

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3 hours ago, Lumberjack Nick said:

Man, I just can’t get my head around LOS and Cover. Any good videos out there explain it?

Best way I can explain it is when determining Line of Sight, you take the viewpoint at the very top center of the mini. When Determining Cover, you draw a line from the center of the attacking mini's base to the defender. if that line crosses Barricades or other Terrain, the defender is considered to have Cover X.

Barricades provided in the Starter set are to be considered heavy cover. Other Barricades Cover is determined by the spread sheet on page 8 of the RRG. When determining Cover, if majority of the models are in cover then that unit will gain Cover X. If there are mini's both in heavy and light cover, then whichever Cover has the most mini's is the Cover they gain. For Example, If you have 2 mini's with Heavy cover and 3 minis with Light cover, the squad is considered to have light cover

These rules will have to be Errated because they don't make sense for some model EX; AT-ST.

That's how I interpret the terrain rules. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

 

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I think the discordant thing is that you can have a trooper standing on a piece of terrain who would draw a line from their base past cover that a T-47 or AT-ST on the ground would go through. Despite either of those potentially being higher up (and thus in a rationally better physical location for shooting down past cover).

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On 4/6/2018 at 3:29 PM, Banditoralf said:

Best way I can explain it is when determining Line of Sight, you take the viewpoint at the very top center of the mini. When Determining Cover, you draw a line from the center of the attacking mini's base to the defender. if that line crosses Barricades or other Terrain, the defender is considered to have Cover X.

Barricades provided in the Starter set are to be considered heavy cover. Other Barricades Cover is determined by the spread sheet on page 8 of the RRG. When determining Cover, if majority of the models are in cover then that unit will gain Cover X. If there are mini's both in heavy and light cover, then whichever Cover has the most mini's is the Cover they gain. For Example, If you have 2 mini's with Heavy cover and 3 minis with Light cover, the squad is considered to have light cover

These rules will have to be Errated because they don't make sense for some model EX; AT-ST.

That's how I interpret the terrain rules. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

 

I guess a lot of my confusion comes in is is it only the Unit Leader that I’m measuring LOS and cover for? So is it like the Unit Leader is shooting for his entire squad? I know thematically he’s not, but in-game do I ever measure the unit’s other minis for any reason?

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38 minutes ago, Lumberjack Nick said:

I guess a lot of my confusion comes in is is it only the Unit Leader that I’m measuring LOS and cover for? So is it like the Unit Leader is shooting for his entire squad? I know thematically he’s not, but in-game do I ever measure the unit’s other minis for any reason?

You also measure from other miniatures if there’s any doubt over whether they have line of sight to one of the target figures. You can only add a figure’s dice to an attack if they can see at least part of one of the targets, and targets out of line of sight to all attacking units can’t be killed. This is often obvious, but may need to be checked at times. A laser sight really helps.

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39 minutes ago, Lumberjack Nick said:

I guess a lot of my confusion comes in is is it only the Unit Leader that I’m measuring LOS and cover for? So is it like the Unit Leader is shooting for his entire squad? I know thematically he’s not, but in-game do I ever measure the unit’s other minis for any reason?

No.

You do have to make sure that every model in the attacking unit has LOS to at least one model in the defending unit though, any model that doesnt will not be able to contribute its attack dice to the pool (as it cannot shoot).

And when assigning damage to a defending unit, any model that is out of sight of all models in the attacking unit cannot be assigned damage, even if its the only model left; any remaining damage is discarded. Both of these kind of makes sense though.

So you occasionally have to check LOS from different models but range is only measured and established one time, from the leader to the closest model in the target unit.

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On 4/8/2018 at 2:23 AM, Lumberjack Nick said:

I guess a lot of my confusion comes in is is it only the Unit Leader that I’m measuring LOS and cover for? So is it like the Unit Leader is shooting for his entire squad? I know thematically he’s not, but in-game do I ever measure the unit’s other minis for any reason?

Sorry for late reply,

 

You measure LOS to each squad member, It shows in the RRG that if Trooper A is not within the LOS of the attacking squad. That mini doesn't get hit and stays put. EX... If a squad of is being attacked by another squad of 5, if the attacking squad doesn't have LOS to any Troopers, then those troopers don't leave the board even if the rest of the squad gets defeated.

It is in the RRG  and uses a picture of an AT-RT.

Edited by Banditoralf

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Posted (edited)
On 4/5/2018 at 3:27 AM, Tokra said:

No idea if this was already posted, but i found this one really good:

5ac60ef9480fd_IMG-20180401-WA0008(2).jpg.720c4c9c9d3be5c212abc069e99c235d.jpg

 

 

 

Number 3 and number 4 do NOT have cover.  Agree?

los.png

Edited by Tab2000
added image for clarity

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1 hour ago, Tab2000 said:

Number 3 and number 4 do NOT have cover.  Agree?

los.png

Correct. The LOS and cover rules were a little different at the time of this thread. They have since been updated to what you see in the RRG now. 2 and 3 have cover, 4 has no cover, and 1 is questionable whether there is LOS or not. If so, it has cover.

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1 hour ago, nashjaee said:

Correct. The LOS and cover rules were a little different at the time of this thread. They have since been updated to what you see in the RRG now. 2 and 3 have cover, 4 has no cover, and 1 is questionable whether there is LOS or not. If so, it has cover.

I know the rules have evolved since the original post was made, however, I'm not sure I agree with you that both 2 and 3 have cover.  2 I agree on but wouldn't position 3 receive no cover at all just like position 4.

Page 41 of the RRG states (emphasis mine):

Quote

Line of sight is used to determine if one mini can see another mini. A player determines line of sight from the perspective of a mini, using a viewpoint where the center of the mini’s base meets the top of the mini’s sculpt. If a player can see part of an opponent’s mini, which includes that mini’s base, from that viewpoint, that player’s mini has line of sight to that opponent’s mini.

From the perspective of the AT-ST, assuming pos 1 has no LOS at all, it cannot be shot. There's LOS to 2 but the entire mini is not fully visible, it's obscured and gains cover based on the cover type between AT-ST and mini.

For 3 & 4, the centre/top of AT-ST has complete LOS over the entire minis, including base, therefore it would have no cover?

 

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17 minutes ago, DwainDibbly said:

2 I agree on but wouldn't position 3 receive no cover at all just like position 4.

Oops, yes you're right. Brain fart as I was typing it out...

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1 hour ago, seidel said:

Here, an updated version. Please comment for edit corrections..., Thanks

LOS legion 2019.jpg

1 wouldn't be able to attacked unless the at-st could see any part of the mini, and 2 wouldn't that be light cover as the object he is behind is marked L for light cover?

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1 hour ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

1 wouldn't be able to attacked unless the at-st could see any part of the mini, and 2 wouldn't that be light cover as the object he is behind is marked L for light cover?

At least half the unit is obscured, so the unit has cover. If at least half of the obscured minis have heavy cover, the unit has heavy cover.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

At least half the unit is obscured, so the unit has cover. If at least half of the obscured minis have heavy cover, the unit has heavy cover.

it depends on the terrain piece that seperate the units not if half the mini is covered or not. if the piece of terrain is declared light cover at the start of the game (like area terrain tall grass, or hills or dunes) also i can't tell if the H (heavy) is terrain that the unit is standing or suppose to be near.

Edited by azeronbloodmoone

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8 hours ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

it depends on the terrain piece that seperate the units not if half the mini is covered or not. if the piece of terrain is declared light cover at the start of the game (like area terrain tall grass, or hills or dunes) also i can't tell if the H (heavy) is terrain that the unit is standing or suppose to be near.

I said unit, not mini. The unit has 2 minis in the open, one obscured by light cover, and one obscured by heavy cover (by virtue of not being in LoS, whihc automatically gives a mini heavy cover). The unit is in heavy cover.

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14 hours ago, azeronbloodmoone said:

wouldn't that be light cover as the object he is behind is marked L for light cover?

I don’t know that the H and L on the diagram are meant to distinguish what kind of terrain those blocks are. In the original diagram, the guy on top of the one marked “L” had light cover and the guy on top of the “H” had heavy cover.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

I don’t know that the H and L on the diagram are meant to distinguish what kind of terrain those blocks are. In the original diagram, the guy on top of the one marked “L” had light cover and the guy on top of the “H” had heavy cover.

I thought only "obscured" was done via LOS from top/centre of attacker, once you determine over half a units minis are obscured, the cover check is done horizontally. Thus the ATST would have to treat anything in-line with the barricade as having heavy cover even if the unit is only obscured due to light cover?

So with unit2. The Light cover it's behind is what obscures the mini, causing the horizontal cover check, but it's the barricade that provides it heavy cover. Even though the barricade would not block LOS at all for the AT-ST.

p26 RRG

Quote

When determining whether an imaginary line traced between the centers of two minis' bases crosses a piece of terrain, the line is always treated as horizontal to the battlefield, on a two-dimensional plain. A player should look down from above the battlefield to determine whether the imaginary line crosses a piece of terrain.

 

Also, nitpick but shouldn't "plain" be "plane" ?

Edited by DwainDibbly

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1 hour ago, DwainDibbly said:

I thought only "obscured" was done via LOS from top/centre of attacker, once you determine over half a units minis are obscured, the cover check is done horizontally.

Quite frankly I have yet to play Legion and have only read through the rules once—and not very in-depth. I’m just bored 😜

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7 hours ago, arnoldrew said:

I said unit, not mini. The unit has 2 minis in the open, one obscured by light cover, and one obscured by heavy cover (by virtue of not being in LoS, whihc automatically gives a mini heavy cover). The unit is in heavy cover.

so as a unit yes it would have heavy cover as 50% of the unit would be obscured. and drawing a line from center to center of each obscured crosses the barricade  which gives instant heavy cover to the unit. and as long as the at-st can't see any part including the base of the mini 1 then the unit can't die even if the at-st uses a blast weapon as it would be total LOS blockage.

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I just wanted to say this has been very helpful to me as a new player to understand Line of Sight and cover rules. And even though I play Rebels, I'm glad to learn that the height of the AT-ST gives it a better vantage point for firing "through" or "over" cover. The size of a model should be important in a physical game like this and I'm glad it is...even though that makes my Rebel Troopers even more vulnerable to it, LOL!

 

Thanks everyone!

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