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KiraYamatoSF

Line of sight and obscured

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Me and others at my LFGS have been debating on true line of sight and cover. 

Lets say there is a T-47 attacking troopers and there is a barricade between them. But neither unit is touching the barricade and the air speeder model has clear line of sight of the troopers. Do the troopers get heavy cover?

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49 minutes ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

Me and others at my LFGS have been debating on true line of sight and cover. 

Lets say there is a T-47 attacking troopers and there is a barricade between them. But neither unit is touching the barricade and the air speeder model has clear line of sight of the troopers. Do the troopers get heavy cover?

The general rule 

COVER TYPE
Whether or not a piece of terrain provides cover varies from miniature to miniature. As a general rule, terrain that blocks line of sight to half or more of a mini provides cover, while terrain that blocks less than half of a mini does not.  This means that trooper minis will frequently enjoy the bene ts of cover, while vehicles often will not.
Terrain either provides no cover, light cover, or heavy cover, depending on its characteristics. Terrain that completely blocks line of sight always provides heavy cover.

 

So, as long as the mini can see completely over the barrier, I’d argue that it provides no cover at all.

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12 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Terrain that completely blocks line of sight always provides heavy cover.

Terrain that blocks LOS does not provide heavy cover, you can't shoot at that unit or model.

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1 hour ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

Me and others at my LFGS have been debating on true line of sight and cover. 

Lets say there is a T-47 attacking troopers and there is a barricade between them. But neither unit is touching the barricade and the air speeder model has clear line of sight of the troopers. Do the troopers get heavy cover?

this has been cause for debate in my gaming club as well.

it appears that as written, if there is any terrain between shooter and target (determined by the "imaginary line"), there is also cover. this does not make sense, especially when the terrain rules on page 8 of the rules reference seem to imply true los. :)

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2 hours ago, Amanal said:

Terrain that blocks LOS does not provide heavy cover, you can't shoot at that unit or model.

Blocked LOS does give heavy cover. Why is this important? To find out of the unit has cover when the line of sight is not blocked to all minis.

If you can only see one mini from a unit, and this one stand in open ground, he will still have heavy cover, because the rest of his unit s LOS is blocked and give heavy cover because of this. More than half give heavy cover => Unit has heavy cover.

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There is no answer right now.

We have conflicting interpretations about whether page 8 applies all the time.

We also have conflicting reports of Alex Davy explaining it in different ways via email and adepticon.

Apparently, he is supposed to be working on cleaning the rules surrounding it up after seeing all the issues that came up during adepticon.

So for now, pick which way makes sense for you and use that, but keep an eye out for the official update/explanation.

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3 hours ago, Tokra said:

No idea if this was already posted, but i found this one really good:

 

 

Just to understand, in the rules where it is highlighted that in the case of a single miniature in a unit to see if it is obscured, you have to see if its half is obscured or not? I  thought that the only thing to check is the line from base to base, and "3" would be obscured using that rule.

According to this,  if considered them as a single unit, two of the miniatures (3 and 4) are obscured and being half or more of the pieces of the unit obscured, the whole unit gets cover.

Did I lose some rules?

 

 

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15 minutes ago, airshow said:

 

As I mentioned, it’s a debate right now whether you apply page 8 purely at the start of the game or during the game as well. We have conflicting info supposedly from the game designer, so you’ll need to wait for an official update and play what makes sense to you for now.

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19 minutes ago, airshow said:

Just to understand, in the rules where it is highlighted that in the case of a single miniature in a unit to see if it is obscured, you have to see if its half is obscured or not? I  thought that the only thing to check is the line from base to base, and "3" would be obscured using that rule.

According to this,  if considered them as a single unit, two of the miniatures (3 and 4) are obscured and being half or more of the pieces of the unit obscured, the whole unit gets cover.

Did I lose some rules?

Mini 4 will not be obstructed because the fence (N) was declared as "no cover".

 

about the 50% rule: it is on page 8 in the RRG (as @Thoras already said).


COVER TYPE
Whether or not a piece of terrain provides cover varies from miniature to miniature. As a general rule, terrain that blocks line of sight to half or more of a mini provides cover, while terrain that blocks less than half of a mini does not. This means that trooper minis will frequently enjoy the benefits of cover, while vehicles often will not.

Terrain either provides no cover, light cover, or heavy cover, depending on its characteristics. Terrain that completely blocks line of sight always provides heavy cover.

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34 minutes ago, Tokra said:

Mini 4 will not be obstructed because the fence (N) was declared as "no cover".

 

about the 50% rule: it is on page 8 in the RRG (as @Thoras already said).

 

 

No, but minis 1 and 2 ARE obscured, and in a 4 mini unit that equals half, and so they should have cover.

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8 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:

No, but minis 1 and 2 ARE obscured, and in a 4 mini unit that equals half, and so they should have cover.

There was so far no discussion if the unit has cover, it was only about each mini on it own.

But you are right, and the unit should even have heavy cover (1 heavy, 1 light; not more light than heavy => cover is heavy). I will modify the picture. This one is not from me, i only took it from somewhere else excuse me when it looks strange after i change it :P

There is as well a good picture on page 22 of the RRG. The text even say that the mini 3 has heavy cover, even when the LOS is blocked.

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7 hours ago, Derrault said:

The general rule 

COVER TYPE
Whether or not a piece of terrain provides cover varies from miniature to miniature. As a general rule, terrain that blocks line of sight to half or more of a mini provides cover, while terrain that blocks less than half of a mini does not.  This means that trooper minis will frequently enjoy the bene ts of cover, while vehicles often will not.
Terrain either provides no cover, light cover, or heavy cover, depending on its characteristics. Terrain that completely blocks line of sight always provides heavy cover.

 

So, as long as the mini can see completely over the barrier, I’d argue that it provides no cover at all.

This applies at the start of the game when you determine if something provides cover. 

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8 hours ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

Me and others at my LFGS have been debating on true line of sight and cover. 

Lets say there is a T-47 attacking troopers and there is a barricade between them. But neither unit is touching the barricade and the air speeder model has clear line of sight of the troopers. Do the troopers get heavy cover?

As I just said, you are determining which terrain provides cover to a unit. So barricades will always provide heavy cover to troopers, but the same barricade will not provide any cover to the T-47. This is because at the start of the game, a barricade covers 50% of the trooper mini, but not 50% of the T-47 mini.

Once terrain characteristics are agreed upon, the game plays very smoothly. When you attack, all you do is 2 steps, which I will paraphrase.

  1. Can I see you?
    1. This step refers to the attacker having LOS to the defender. You check LOS to each mini in the defending group and determine which ones can be seen or cannot be seen. This is just a visual check.
  2. Do you have cover?
    1. This step is where you check cover for the defender following the rules on PG 22. You trace LOS from the leader to each defending mini. If more than 50% of the defending unit has cover, the entire unit has cover. And you determine a mini has cover if the line crosses any piece of terrain, no matter how far the defending unit is from the terrain. The defending unit will gain the benefit of the highest cover value provided by the terrain.

So in your example, the troopers will gain heavy cover because the T-47 checks for cover and crosses the barricade. But the T-47 will not gain cover if the troopers attack because at the start you determined the barricade does not cover 50% of the mini. 

 

That said, it sounds like this rule will be changing to a real true LOS. So in the same example under true LOS, neither would gain cover. 

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4 hours ago, Tokra said:

No idea if this was already posted, but i found this one really good:

IMG-20180401-WA0008.jpg.a7536ad2db7816f73fb0f777384530f6.jpg

 

This is misleading a little bit. 

Based on the LOS, 1 cannot be attacked. 2 has light cover. 4 has no cover. And 3 can have light cover or no cover, based on how you characterize the terrain. If you say the terrain gives a flat light bonus cover no matter what, then 3 has light cover because from base to base, the line intersects the terrain.. But if you say it provides no cover if you are on top, then 3 gains no cover.

 

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14 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

As I just said, you are determining which terrain provides cover to a unit. So barricades will always provide heavy cover to troopers,

Depend how far the trooper are behind the barricades :D.

If the trooper are far away from the barricade and the airspeeder is really close, the barricade will not cover 50% of the unit and should not count at all anymore.

But these are parts that need to be set at the start of the match and not when it happens.

 

10 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

This is misleading a little bit. 

Based on the LOS, 1 cannot be attacked. 2 has light cover. 4 has no cover. And 3 can have light cover or no cover, based on how you characterize the terrain. If you say the terrain gives a flat light bonus cover no matter what, then 3 has light cover because from base to base, the line intersects the terrain.. But if you say it provides no cover if you are on top, then 3 gains no cover.

 

Check the picture on page 22 of the rrg:

page22.jpg.527ed3141d44ed7a70962b52da618da5.jpg

The mini without line of sight does count for cover (in this case called obstructed). It has heavy, even when he cannot be attacked.

Means in the AT-ST picture:
1 has heavy cover, 2 has light cover, 3 and 4 have no cover.
At least half have cover (are obstructed), not more with light as heavy. Means the unit should have heavy cover.

The terrain is listed in the picture. L (light), H (heavy), N (none).

 

Edited by Tokra

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4 minutes ago, Tokra said:

Depend how far the trooper are behind the barricades :D.

If the trooper are far away from the barricade and the airspeeder is really close, the barricade will not cover 50% of the unit and should not count at all anymore.

But these are parts that need to be set at the start of the match and not when it happens.

It doesn't matter. You are not checking to see if 50% of the mini is covered after you declare an attack. You are only checking if a line crosses terrain. So you can have troopers at range 3 of a barricade still gain the benefit of cover if the line is drawn through the barricade. 

If you want to add the caveat if you are beyond range 1 of the barricade it does not provide cover, that's fine. But that is an additional step from page 8 and up to the players to decide. 

 

PG 22

Determine Number of Obscured Miniatures: The player traces an imaginary line from the center of the base of the attacker’s unit leader to the center of the base of a mini in the defending unit. If the imaginary line crosses either a piece of terrain or another unit’s base, that mini is obscured. The player repeats this process for each mini in the defender to determine how many of those minis are obscured.

  • If the attacking unit leader’s base is touching a piece of terrain, that piece of terrain cannot cause a mini in the defender to be obscured.
  • Only ground vehicles can cause a unit to be obscured. If the imaginary line crosses a ground vehicle’s base, the defending unit’s mini is obscured, but if the imaginary line only crosses a trooper or a repulsor vehicle’s base then the defending unit’s mini are not obscured.
8 minutes ago, Tokra said:

Check the picture on page 22 of the rrg:

page22.jpg.527ed3141d44ed7a70962b52da618da5.jpg

The mini without line of sight does count for cover (in this case called obstructed). It has heavy, even when he cannot be attacked.

Means in the AT-ST picture:
1 has heavy cover, 2 has light cover, 3 and 4 have no cover.
At least half have cover (are obstructed), not more with light as heavy. Means the unit should have heavy cover.

The terrain is listed in the picture. L (light), H (heavy), N (none).

I took each mini individually, not as a unit. As a unit, they gain heavy cover. 

My point was 3 can have 2 different types of cover based on how you characterize the terrain at the start of the game. Either light or none. 

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I am already really excited for the first tournament, and the first discussions :D.

"This one has cover, this branch of the tree is between these two units"
"I can attack you, i can see your elbow"
"It does not matter if i can see you, i am throwing the grenade over the wall"
"Wait, i will change the position of the AT-ST a bit. See, now i can see you, and when you are going to attack i will duck down"

:lol:

Edit: half of these sentenses could be from me :rolleyes:

Edited by Tokra

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10 minutes ago, Tokra said:

I am already really excited for the first tournament, and the first discussions :D.

"This one has cover, this branch of the tree is between these two units"
"I can attack you, i can see your elbow"
"It does not matter if i can see you, i am throwing the grenate over the wall"
"Wait, i will change the position of the AT-ST a bit. See, now i can see you, and when you are going to attack i will duck down"

:lol:

Edit: half of these sentenses could be from me :rolleyes:

It's going to be a blast! <_<

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36 minutes ago, Tokra said:

I am already really excited for the first tournament, and the first discussions :D.

"This one has cover, this branch of the tree is between these two units"
"I can attack you, i can see your elbow"
"It does not matter if i can see you, i am throwing the grenade over the wall"
"Wait, i will change the position of the AT-ST a bit. See, now i can see you, and when you are going to attack i will duck down"

:lol:

Edit: half of these sentenses could be from me :rolleyes:

'They shot Sarge in the heraldry!!!!'

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I don't really understand the confusion, as the rules on page 8 are very clearly (in the paragraph above it) listed as the method to determine the Cover Type of a piece of terrain. You never check if a mini is 50% blocked. 

First of all, a model either has Line of Sight is it doesn't. Line of sight has nothing to do with cover. Something that provides no cover, such as a repulsor vehicles, can block line of sight. 

Secondly, if the paragraph on page 8 were a rule, the wording would have to be different.

"As a general rule, terrain that blocks line of sight to half or more of a mini provides cover, while terrain that blocks less than half of a mini does not."

Not only does line of sight have nothing to do with cover, but you never get cover to an individual model. Terrain does not "provide cover" to individual models. Cover is only applied to units. The term they always used is "obscured". But on page 8, they never mention that term because they aren't talking about the rules. 

If the rules writers had intended that you determine if a model is obscured by checking from the top of the model, they would have said so. Yet they only call for line drawn from center of base to center of base. Even if the model is offset on the base, you still check from center to center. That's all you ever do. 

I agree that it makes sense for some terrain pieces to be ignored when firing, but this would have to be a house rule. I really don't see FFG changing the rules. Using the 50% obscured rules would only cause trouble. For example, what is 50% of an AT-ST? Is that half of the box the mini fits in (i.e. covering all of it's legs) or is it half of the mass of the vehicle (i.e covering most of the cockpit). The same goes for the height of the model as the AT-ST can vary quite a bit. And the snowspeeder is also a problem. According to it's card, it can fly over terrain that's 12" tall, yet the mini is mounted much lower than that. Shouldn't the snowspeeder be able to fire from 12" above the table? 

Edited by Hedgehobbit

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Haha, at least it is reassuring that my group isn't the only one having discussions on this.

I guess i will ask everyone at my LFGS on what they want to do. If FFG comes out to clarify then we will change things up if necessary but for now we will do things that make sense to us and lets us have fun.

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