# Elemental Cycle & Scorpion Pack Spoilers

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1 hour ago, Hinomura said:

If I bid five and you bid one, the difference is four. If I bid one and you bid five, the difference is four. I'm not seeing any reason why those two situations wouldn't both trigger the penalty.

Subtraction is not commutative like addition is. "Difference between the bid on your honor dial and that of your opponent" means "Your honor bid - your opponent's honor bid = Penalty." If you bid 5 and she bids 1, the result is 4. If you bid 1 and she bids 5, the result is -4.

Though I'll admit, I don't know if the LCG rulebook specifies otherwise.

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20 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Subtraction is not commutative like addition is. "Difference between the bid on your honor dial and that of your opponent" means "Your honor bid - your opponent's honor bid = Penalty." If you bid 5 and she bids 1, the result is 4. If you bid 1 and she bids 5, the result is -4.

Though I'll admit, I don't know if the LCG rulebook specifies otherwise.

But the card doesn't instruct you to specifically subtract one bid from the other it just asks what the difference it and in both cases the difference is 4

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4 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

But the card doesn't instruct you to specifically subtract one bid from the other it just asks what the difference it and in both cases the difference is 4

It does, though. It specifies your bid first, then their bid. That's the order.

If I say "the difference between 9 and 5" the answer is 4; if I say "the difference between 5 and 9" the answer is -4.

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1 minute ago, Hida Jitenno said:

It does, though. It specifies your bid first, then their bid. That's the order.

If I say "the difference between 9 and 5" the answer is 4; if I say "the difference between 5 and 9" the answer is -4.

My point is that the order of operation is not specifically relevant as whether it is +4 or -4 the difference is still 4 which is all the effect cares about.

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Just now, Schmoozies said:

My point is that the order of operation is not specifically relevant as whether it is +4 or -4 the difference is still 4 which is all the effect cares about.

My point is that the order of operation is specifically relevant, because while the absolute value of the difference may be 4, the actual difference is either 4 or -4, depending on which bid was higher. The card asks for the difference, not the absolute value of the difference, so it does matter.

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Stolen Secrets is very meh. Stealing your opponents is this RNG mystery box what could have been used for a reliable card instead. This isn't a free card either, far from it, the cost is steep. Plagiarist is this ability on a body and a stick.

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24 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

My point is that the order of operation is specifically relevant, because while the absolute value of the difference may be 4, the actual difference is either 4 or -4, depending on which bid was higher. The card asks for the difference, not the absolute value of the difference, so it does matter.

Sadly we will need to wait until the cards are released and we can expect to see the devs address the question officially (I'm pretty sure they don't address questions on unofficially spoiled cards until the street date), but I am forwarding the question for clarification.

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14 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Sadly we will need to wait until the cards are released and we can expect to see the devs address the question officially (I'm pretty sure they don't address questions on unofficially spoiled cards until the street date), but I am forwarding the question for clarification.

That's fair. I can see where the ambiguity is. "Difference" in English Language versus "Difference" in Math Language.

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"

It does not matter whose dial is higher, so long as they are different. You are correct that if you and your opponent bid 1-5 (in either direction) the difference is 4 and the character’s skill will be reduced accordingly.

~Tyler Parrott
Card Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

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There's not really any ambiguity. If your bid had to be higher it would say that.

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32 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

There's not really any ambiguity. If your bid had to be higher it would say that.

There's no need for your bid to be higher, it would just not be as effective. And in Math Language, if you say "The difference between 1 and 5" the only answer is "-4" not 4. So yes, when they say "Difference between your and theirs" but mean "Not in the Math sense even though you're doing math" that's ambiguous.

37 minutes ago, Hinomura said:

"

It does not matter whose dial is higher, so long as they are different. You are correct that if you and your opponent bid 1-5 (in either direction) the difference is 4 and the character’s skill will be reduced accordingly.

~Tyler Parrott
Card Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

Thank you for the clarification.

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No problem - your well-reasoned response definitely presented a logical conclusion, and just because Tyler ruled it the other way doesn't mean you are wrong

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There is nothing on Stolen Secrets which says that the card you choose is ever put back into the game.  Does that mean that you can just play it 1/turn?

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3 hours ago, Hordeoverseer said:

Stolen Secrets is very meh. Stealing your opponents is this RNG mystery box what could have been used for a reliable card instead. This isn't a free card either, far from it, the cost is steep. Plagiarist is this ability on a body and a stick.

Not exactly, because Plagiarist copy a card that your opponent has already used. Stolen Secrets lets you deny that card to your opponent for the rest of the game and then use it if you want.

I agree that the cost is big. But consider playing two of them one after another. Take one of your opponent’s card out, set up their best card in the remaining three and also take it out next turn.

Certainly a card to consider if a Scorpion milling deck comes around. And there are already a few cards that can contribute to that deck.

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8 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

There is nothing on Stolen Secrets which says that the card you choose is ever put back into the game.  Does that mean that you can just play it 1/turn?

It stays out of game until the scorpion player plays it. Then it goes to their owner discard pile.

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5 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

There is nothing on Stolen Secrets which says that the card you choose is ever put back into the game.  Does that mean that you can just play it 1/turn?

As per the RRG

Play and Put into Play
Playing a character or attachment card involves paying the card’s fate cost and placing the card in the play area. This causes the card to enter play. Cards are played from a player’s hand or provinces. Any time a character card is played, its controller has the option of placing additional fate from his or her fate pool on the card.
Some card abilities put cards into play. This bypasses the need to pay the card’s cost, as well as the opportunity to place additional fate on the card. A card that is put into play bypasses any restrictions or prohibitions regarding the potential of playing that card. A card that is put into play enters play in its controller’s play area.
◊◊ A card that has been put into play is not considered to have been “played.”
◊◊ In order to play a card, its fate cost (after modifiers) must be paid.
◊◊ When a card is put into play, its fate cost is ignored.
◊◊ Unless otherwise instructed by the put into play effect, characters that enter play in this manner do so ready and at home. Non-character cards that enter play in this manner must do so in a play area or state that matches the rules of playing the card.
◊◊ When an event card is played, place it on the table, resolve its ability, and place the card in its owner’s discard pile.

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Ah well, it was briefly a nice idea

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so if I never play the card removed from game, it stays removed until the game is over?

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26 minutes ago, BayushiFugu said:

so if I never play the card removed from game, it stays removed until the game is over?

yes

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I love the mind game of Stolen secrets that they don't know what you stole, but for the cost I want a reliably good effect. Run Agasha swordsmith, or Walking the Way, or something like that. Now every time you use it, ask yourself how crippling it would be to lose one of those cards. Better yet, think about it this way. Would you remove the best one of them from the game to make your opponent lose 1 fate off a character, one from their pool, and a card?

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18 hours ago, Hordeoverseer said:

Stolen Secrets is very meh. Stealing your opponents is this RNG mystery box what could have been used for a reliable card instead. This isn't a free card either, far from it, the cost is steep. Plagiarist is this ability on a body and a stick.

No, this gives you access to attachments and conflict characters too not just events. Plus Plagiarist is dependent on the discard pile which your opponent has some control over.

I'm really amused by the idea of using it to get a Kachiko on my side of the field.

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I was thinking about a certain build; there was a short discussion about it but in Deck Construction section but Stolen Secrets fits in it and I can't wait to test it. ?

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Stolen secrets could work really well with tadaka

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