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Tonbo Karasu

Elemental Cycle & Scorpion Pack Spoilers

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3 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

Already banned in multiplayer just like Beastmaster Matriarch.

Probably the most uninspired card from the set, which is a shame because the art is terrific.

Unless you have some insider knowledge, it isn't.  The banned list from the updated rules is:

• Know the World (Core Set, 178) • Display of Power (Core Set, 179) • Ide Tadaji (Imperial Cycle, 29) • Beastmaster Matriarch (Imperial Cycle, 106) • Togashi Tadakatsu (Disciples of the Void, 15)

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1 minute ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Unless you have some insider knowledge, it isn't.  The banned list from the updated rules is:

• Know the World (Core Set, 178) • Display of Power (Core Set, 179) • Ide Tadaji (Imperial Cycle, 29) • Beastmaster Matriarch (Imperial Cycle, 106) • Togashi Tadakatsu (Disciples of the Void, 15)

It was mentioned on the Discord a few times. If it isn't officially on the list yet it should be for the same reasons Beastmaster Matriarch is, especially considering the Kitsu counts all claimed Rings, not just your opponents.

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Just now, Danwarr said:

It was mentioned on the Discord a few times. If it isn't officially on the list yet it should be for the same reasons Beastmaster Matriarch is, especially considering the Kitsu counts all claimed Rings, not just your opponents.

"mentioned on the Discord a few times" is not an official rule of any sort.

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2 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

"mentioned on the Discord a few times" is not an official rule of any sort.

It's fine if you still want to believe the card was designed for multiplayer, but I know pretty much for a fact that it was initially designed before the Enlightenment Rule-set had been finalized.

Lion just gets another unplayable 4 fate character two cycles in a row, and that's ok I guess.

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Just now, Danwarr said:

It's fine if you still want to believe the card was designed for multiplayer, but I know pretty much for a fact that it was initially designed before the Enlightenment Rule-set had been finalized.

Lion just gets another unplayable 4 fate character two cycles in a row, and that's ok I guess.

Where did I say I thought it was designed for multiplayer?  I was just pointing out that your apparent statement of fact was an opinion, rather than a fact as you presented it.

Also, why would the Kitsu count all rings?  To quote the enlightenment rules

Quote

When a card or game effect refers to one or more claimed or unclaimed rings, it only refers to the ring or rings in the unclaimed ring pool or on the provinces of the controller of the card effect, or by the player resolving the game effect.

 

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It's a of a slap on the face when characters get conditional +2/+0 bonuses with below average stats, then you have 1/1 for 1 who get +2/+2 and 3/3 for 3 who get +2/+2 with conditions you can easily manipulate as first player. This probably should have been a 4 for a 3/3, even then it might not see play but it's more reasonable when it comes to value vs cost.

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Yeah, art is cool...perhaps intent was cool, but the card may be a binder card for quite some time.  If I had that guy or an Honored General, I would ALWAYS buy the General.

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It could get a decent value with HMT, but even at its best it is barely above characters like Honored General or indeed Kudaka. As others have said, this is really sad because the artwork is cool. The only reasoning I can see is that this is meant to be the first piece (maybe second if you count Beastmaster Matriarch) of combos involving Lion effects that make you count as having rings of specific conflict types (like Secluded Shrine does for elements). For example a Holding that makes you count as having two MIL rings.

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14 minutes ago, Saibot said:

It could get a decent value with HMT, but even at its best it is barely above characters like Honored General or indeed Kudaka. As others have said, this is really sad because the artwork is cool. The only reasoning I can see is that this is meant to be the first piece (maybe second if you count Beastmaster Matriarch) of combos involving Lion effects that make you count as having rings of specific conflict types (like Secluded Shrine does for elements). For example a Holding that makes you count as having two MIL rings.

If they give us a card that said we count as having a ring sure, but ring tricks are Phoenix and Dragon's shtick so i don't seen them extending it to a third faction.  Lion is supposed to be the honorable swarm aggro faction (although Unicorn looks like they are taking that swarm aspect of the role over) and are supposed to be surviving on their Dynasty deck providing the muscle to push past most opponents.  Unfortunately as we've seen the power of control decks to offset your military has proven stronger than the poor stats of Lion can cope with.

At this point there are too many Lion characters with when you win a conflict do X ability and not enough cards that actually let you win those conflicts to trigger those great abilities.

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2 hours ago, jgibbo90 said:

107759610_image1(1).JPG.27d32a7645ef71ec690c7431fc7b9ad2.JPG

New spoiler from Rokugang (Found on the Discord). Text is:

4-cost Kitsu Warrior
2/2/0
For each [MIL] ring that is
claimed, this character gets +2 [MIL].
For each [POL] ring that is
claimed, this character gets +2 [POL].

For each mil ring get +2 pol

For each pol get +2 mil

PLAYABLE. As it is now it's just a coaster

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2 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

If they give us a card that said we count as having a ring sure, but ring tricks are Phoenix and Dragon's shtick so i don't seen them extending it to a third faction.  Lion is supposed to be the honorable swarm aggro faction (although Unicorn looks like they are taking that swarm aspect of the role over) and are supposed to be surviving on their Dynasty deck providing the muscle to push past most opponents.  Unfortunately as we've seen the power of control decks to offset your military has proven stronger than the poor stats of Lion can cope with.

At this point there are too many Lion characters with when you win a conflict do X ability and not enough cards that actually let you win those conflicts to trigger those great abilities.

Well, we have already seen Shiotome Encampment, so the particular theme of using the type of ring, instead of the element, is still open to be developed for Lion as well (of course the sad part is that this would then be another overlap between Lion and Unicorn).

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23 minutes ago, Saibot said:

Well, we have already seen Shiotome Encampment, so the particular theme of using the type of ring, instead of the element, is still open to be developed for Lion as well (of course the sad part is that this would then be another overlap between Lion and Unicorn).

Shiotome is like the Beastmaster and the Kitsu its while you control x ring type, gain y benefit.  Phoenix are the only ones who have any sort of innate ring manipulation abilities and Dragon have the backwards ring selection character and the ability to manipulate fate on rings by adding and subtracting and moving fate.

As I said Lion design seems to be assuming you will always win your conflict and so can trigger all these great abilities but ignoring the abilities that will help you actually win those conflicts.

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Nah you use it on the third attack when you win military in the first one, let your opponent take a military ring, win a second military conflict with Captive Audience, and then Get that sweet +6 mil for your last attack......

Yeah it's bad.

Too bad too as it's probably the best Kitsu art ever.

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3 hours ago, Danwarr said:

Already banned in multiplayer just like Beastmaster Matriarch.

Probably the most uninspired card from the set, which is a shame because the art is terrific.

I dunno,  by the time Lion get their FIFTH conflict he could be a 6/6. There's pretty darn good. 

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7 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Nah you use it on the third attack when you win military in the first one, let your opponent take a military ring, win a second military conflict with Captive Audience, and then Get that sweet +6 mil for your last attack......

Yeah it's bad.

Too bad too as it's probably the best Kitsu art ever.

In my younger years, I'd be all about polishing cards to make them marginally usable because of awesome art or theme. But man, I don't have time for that now. :(

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13 minutes ago, twinstarbmc said:

I dunno,  by the time Lion get their FIFTH conflict he could be a 6/6. There's pretty darn good. 

So it's a 4 fate character that sits on the board doing nothing until it becomes a 6/6 by which time only the first 6 is relevant because you're initiating a Mil conflict anyway. When you consider that Niten Master is also a 4 fate character that readies itself twice while starting out as a 3/3, a 2/2 for 4 that can become a blank 6/6 seems incredibly mediocre.

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20 minutes ago, Danwarr said:

So it's a 4 fate character that sits on the board doing nothing until it becomes a 6/6 by which time only the first 6 is relevant because you're initiating a Mil conflict anyway. When you consider that Niten Master is also a 4 fate character that readies itself twice while starting out as a 3/3, a 2/2 for 4 that can become a blank 6/6 seems incredibly mediocre.

After a single conflict, it becomes either a 2/4 or a 4/2, both of which are on par with most other 4-costers. And it only gets bigger from there. If that's not decent economy, I don't know what is. Oh, AND it's a Bushi, which a lot of Lion stuff cares about.

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4 hours ago, jgibbo90 said:

107759610_image1(1).JPG.27d32a7645ef71ec690c7431fc7b9ad2.JPG

New spoiler from Rokugang (Found on the Discord). Text is:

4-cost Kitsu Warrior
2/2/0
For each [MIL] ring that is
claimed, this character gets +2 [MIL].
For each [POL] ring that is
claimed, this character gets +2 [POL].

This guy is begging for a sashimono.

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Too finicky a character. Yes, the character can reliably be 6 mil on Lion's second military conflict, but that requires winning one first. At four fate this is somewhat economical but not impressive. Best case, a Sashimono with two Captive Audiences that goes 2/4/6/8/10 in the conflicts, but that is hoping there is no real control going on with your opponent. Raw stats often need something to back it up, and this character doesn't bring much to the table. Being so focused on later conflicts is a hindrance. If this character had decent stats for a 4 fate character, then the effect might be worthwhile. As a conflict character this would be worthwhile with the flexibility to use it when it mattered. Maybe if there were more stat referencing cards than Rout and Outwit this could have some good synergy.

Ikoma Reservist is really good because it is cheap. The flexibility of Noble Kitsu working with political is useful, but not worth the cost. Compare to Volcanic troll that is also a pure stats character, which is usually going to be a 5/5 for a conflict or two, and 3/3 for later, yet only costs 3 fate. If this card were 4/4 with no ability it would be much more reliable and still lackluster.

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On the other hand, it will usually be a 4/6 in the last conflict since it doesn't care who claimed the ring. So while he's a worse charge target than the existing 5 cost options, he might be a good Spiritcaller target in political conflicts?

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5 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

On the other hand, it will usually be a 4/6 in the last conflict since it doesn't care who claimed the ring. So while he's a worse charge target than the existing 5 cost options, he might be a good Spiritcaller target in political conflicts?

In the last political conflict he will probably just be a 4 Pol. Maybe a 6 because of Rally to the Cause/Kuroi Mori/Wholeness of the World, and at most a 10 if both sides do a combination of those. That could swing a Pol conflict, but it is probably better for the deck to keep using Honorable General. Ikoma Eiji is really good generally so I don't see dropping him from a deck to slot in Noble Kitsu. If worried about shoring up the political side I would rather play Kudaka or Miya Satoshi who have generally useful abilities and 4 Pol regardless of conflict order and no winner conflicts.

This character would be better in Phoenix, though still underwhelming. It is somewhat frustrating, this cycle the Phoenix get the cheat into play character while the Lion get the character empowered by Ring manipulation. Even though Void conflicts are not the highest priority for Lion, I would have loved a Kitsu that had the Feral Ningyo ability triggered from Void instead of conflict.

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Why would you pick void as the ring for the Kitsu? Fire seems more appropriate for the Lion to me, so I'm curious on the ring choice. But I agree, Lion seems 'cheaty' as a theme (clearly meant for tempo and burst as a mechanic), and Feral Ningyo would make sense as a Lion ability.

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11 minutes ago, AradonTemplar said:

Why would you pick void as the ring for the Kitsu? Fire seems more appropriate for the Lion to me, so I'm curious on the ring choice. But I agree, Lion seems 'cheaty' as a theme (clearly meant for tempo and burst as a mechanic), and Feral Ningyo would make sense as a Lion ability.

Kitsu were associated with void among the Five Ancient Races. Trolls were associated with fire.

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