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EliasWindrider

The Nubian design collective's whole vehicle crafting handbook

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@EliasWindrider

Howdy!

I found an extremely anomalous ship in Special Modifications. The L-2783 Deep Space Recovery Vessel (pg. 64) is strange.

Just from the description, this Sil 5 (Bulk Freighter) has a 5000 Enc capacity,  carries 50 (most likely Sil 2) salvage pods, and 4 cargo shuttles (most likely Sil 4, but maybe Sil 3).

In addition, it can hold an "old-style cruiser" in it's internal bay (text description).

It has a crew of 100 and passengers of 100.

It can perform repairs in deep space.

I can't get enough HP to meet the crew/passenger, cargo and hangar capacity. 

 

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Continuing with some hard data: The ship would have 27 hp (+2 hp from extra hp, and +2 hp from integrated systems), for the equivalent of 31 hp.

The ship needs: Weapons 4, Engine 3, Sensors 1, Hyperdrive 1, Life Support 3, Reinforced Frame 8, Customization HP's 7.

That leaves 4 hp for crew/passengers, 5000 Enc cargo, space for 50 pods (Sil 2), 4 shuttles (Sil 4), and another ship (I would guess Sil 4).

I personally feel that this ship is broken no matter what rules set is used to build it.

Now, with Reinforced Construction, I can get this up to 6 open HP.

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8 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

Continuing with some hard data: The ship would have 27 hp (+2 hp from extra hp, and +2 hp from integrated systems), for the equivalent of 31 hp.

The ship needs: Weapons 4, Engine 3, Sensors 1, Hyperdrive 1, Life Support 3, Reinforced Frame 8, Customization HP's 7.

That leaves 4 hp for crew/passengers, 5000 Enc cargo, space for 50 pods (Sil 2), 4 shuttles (Sil 4), and another ship (I would guess Sil 4).

I personally feel that this ship is broken no matter what rules set is used to build it.

Now, with Reinforced Construction, I can get this up to 6 open HP.

I think this is going to be one of the "5%" of ships that we don't get a "95% quality match" on, but have you tried a Corvette with elegant design?

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In another thread where I was debating with Tramp who claimed the YZ-775 should have in the neighborhood of 50 htt and I was saying it was about right where it is, I went through viluppo and made a list of similar ships.  All of them are sil 5, here's the list.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/YZ-775_medium_transport

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/463/

D20, 52 meters, 210 hull points

FFG 34 htt, 25 sst, AR 4

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Curich-class_shuttle

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/2137/

D6 54 meters

FFG 38 htt, 18 sst, ar 3

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/HT-2200_medium_freighter

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/1480/

D6 54.8 meters

FFG 35 htt, 14 sst,  ar 5

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/PB-950_patrol_boat

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/484/

D6 37 meters, warship

FFG 34 htt, 22 sst, ar 4

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wayfarer-class_medium_transport/Legends

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/442/

D20 82 meters, 160 hull points

FFG 32 htt, 20 sst, ar 4

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/CSS-1_Corellian_Star_Shuttle

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/483/

D20 (OCR) 80 meters, 300 hull points

FFG 30 htt,  22 sst, ar 4

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Space_Master_medium_transport

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/440/

D20 80 meters, 160 hull points

FFG 25 htt, 25 htt, ar 2

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/VCX-100_light_freighter

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/2835/

43.9 meters

FFG 32 htt, 28 sst, ar 3

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/IR-3F-class_light_frigate

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/2570/

D20 110 meters, 240 hull points,

FFG 40 htt, 35 sst, ar 3

 

The point is that to date the effort has focused on being able to replicate the awesome ships, and that has caused the ruleset to not be able to replicate average ships, e.g. current there is no way for a sil 5 transport frame to have 25 htt (admittedly the race ship hull could get it down to 30, but the listed ships are not race ships). Which leads me to think that the base htt for a transport should be VSL instead of VSL + 10, and then the "reinforced construction" frame crafting upgrade (which will provide +1 htt, be able to be taken silhouette #of times, and cost 1 adv moving forward) and "reinforced frame" attachment.    Could someone investigate what that would do to the ability to replicate extremal ships that we've previously built in this thread? 

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Btw I tried building the yz-900 (very similar sister ship of the YZ-775) with the existing ruleset and came up with a pretty close match but had too many hp, which lead me down the route of what if they had to spend some of the hp on reinforced frame attachments to get the htt up to 35, here's the process

Transport frame crafted with 7 advantage with larger scope => sil 5, htt 35, 25 hp, 20 Enc, 4 crew, 8 passengers, integrated improvements => 16 passengers, officer quarters => 6 crew,  14 passengers, integrated improvements to halve crew requirements => 3 crew 

Ion turbine engine with 5 advantage for 3 hp => 1/0/0/0 defense, 25 sst, speed 1, enhanced output  => speed 2, enhanced power to deflectors => 1/0/0/1 defense

Mod engine to increase speed to 3 (22 hp left) 2xmod to increase shields to 1/1/1/1,

 

Transport hull with 6 advantage, armor 1, handling -2, 3x layered plating => armor 4

2 dedicated cargo bays for 2 hp => 510 enc, 20 hp left

4x life support systems for 4 hp, 3 modded twice, 1 modded once => 275 days (approx 9 months) of consumables and 16 hp left

Sensors 1hp, modded to long range => 15 hp left

Hyperdrive 1 hp, suitably modded => 14 hp left

Navicomputer 0hp

Weapons 6 hp => 8 hp left

Luxury passenger compartments for stateroms 1 hp => 7 hp left

Supposed to have 3 unspent hp => 4 too many hp if I did the math right

 

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@EliasWindrider

I wouldn't mind helping when I can.

Could you post an "updated" version of the Nubian Design Collective first? 

And are there any specific ships to test out with the updated rules?

(With my crazy life, having set goals to make will greatly improve my ability to help.)

Cheers!

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thanks

http://www.mediafire.com/file/2w9oicv7s63dhmg/TheNubianDesignCollectivesWholeVehicleCraftingHandbook.pdf/file

 

so let's shoot for

hwk-290

hwk-1000 (fly casual)

KST-100 (dawn of rebellion)

MandalMotors Aka'jor class shuttle. pg 38 of friends like these.

Aggressor assault fighter (this is actually probably a patrol ship with elegant design but might be a transport with race ship hull)

Sentinel landing craft

YT-2400

CROC gonzati (no disintegrations)

Flatline & Brilliance (Interceptor IV Mask of the pirate queen)

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/1826/

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/1836/

http://swrpg.viluppo.net/transportation/starships/483/

Edited by EliasWindrider

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@EliasWindrider

I've only got to the HWK-290, HWK-1000, and the KST-100 so far. The HWK-1000 is easy. It works fine. The other two cannot achieve their listed HTT and SST as is. Based upon prior work I've done, and this work, I have some suggestions: 

1) Change the Base Handling of the Bulk Freighter hull to -4 (but add to Handling upgrade Mods).

2) Change the Base Handling of the Transport, Gunship and Ship of the Line as well (-3 or -4, but also add Handling upgrade Mods).

3) Add the "Fine-Tuned Circuits" and "Integrated Systems" options to the Assembly table.

4) Change the "Reinforced Construction" option to read "This can be selected up to Silhouette times during this Step." and add it to the Crafting Hulls and Assembly tables. Perhaps needing 2 Advantage on the Crafting Hulls table and 3 Advantage on the Assembly table.

Note: I also found an error on the Crafting table: "Fine-Tuned" says "remove 3 from Piloting checks..."

I'll still plug away at the other ships as time permits!

Cheers!

Almost forgot! 

5) Maybe add one additional Mod for Life Support. The HWK-290 just barely needs 3, but if there was a other Mod, it could get by with 2. That would leave it 2 hp that could go to Reinforced Frame.

Edited by salamar_dree

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10 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

I've only got to the HWK-290, HWK-1000, and the KST-100 so far. The HWK-1000 is easy. It works fine. The other two cannot achieve their listed HTT and SST as is. Based upon prior work I've done, and this work, I have some suggestions: 

1) Change the Base Handling of the Bulk Freighter hull to -4 (but add to Handling upgrade Mods).

2) Change the Base Handling of the Transport, Gunship and Ship of the Line as well (-3 or -4, but also add Handling upgrade Mods).

3) Add the "Fine-Tuned Circuits" and "Integrated Systems" options to the Assembly table.

4) Change the "Reinforced Construction" option to read "This can be selected up to Silhouette times during this Step." and add it to the Crafting Hulls and Assembly tables. Perhaps needing 2 Advantage on the Crafting Hulls table and 3 Advantage on the Assembly table.

Note: I also found an error on the Crafting table: "Fine-Tuned" says "remove 3 from Piloting checks..."

I'll still plug away at the other ships as time permits!

Cheers!

Almost forgot! 

5) Maybe add one additional Mod for Life Support. The HWK-290 just barely needs 3, but if there was a other Mod, it could get by with 2. That would leave it 2 hp that could go to Reinforced Frame.

Could you post more detail, I'll give an example (hwk-290) and what it tells me.

Hwk 290 transport frame, elegant design, passenger quarters, officers quarters reinforced constructionx3, 2 crew 2 passengers, 12 hp, 13 htt, 20 enc (8 adv or 5 adv and 1 tri)

Reinforced frame 18 htt, 10 hp.

Ion turbine engine, with speed, 3xstrain, 1 shield mod: 7 hp, speed 2, 19 sst, 1/-/-/1 defense, 2 enhanced output (4 adv) => speed 4.

Transport hull, ar 1, handling -2; modded => ar 2, handling -1, 2x maneuvering fins, 2x cargo pods (8 adv, or 5 adv and 1 tri) => handling = +1, 40 enc

1 dedicated cargo bays => 6 hp & 70 enc,

Hyper drive 5 hp left

Navicomputer 4 hp left

2*life support each modded 3 times, => 80 days and 2 hp,

So off by 5 enc, needs 3 more hp, 10 more days of life support, has 1 too many sst, so if htt was 5+vsl, that's +2 hp, if assembly could add an hp, that would be 5 hp, which I'd count as a 95% quality match.  I should also modify officer's quarters with an "OR increase crew by 1" to decrease advantage needed for frame by 1.

I'll get a new draft with those changes out as soon as I can.

Edit: http://www.mediafire.com/file/2w9oicv7s63dhmg/TheNubianDesignCollectivesWholeVehicleCraftingHandbook.pdf/file

BTW the transport hull now has 2 increase consumables by VSL mods.

which means we can now get the hwk-290 right to +/-5 enc, +1 sst (19 sst instead of official 18).

 

Edited by EliasWindrider

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kst-100

transport frame, elegant design, officer's quarters (+1 crew), integrated improvements (x2 passengers), extra hard point, 2 crew 4 passengers, 13 hp, 15 htt, 20 enc (8 adv or 5 adv and 1 tri)

2x Reinforced frame 25 htt, 9 hp.

Ion turbine engine, with speed, 3x strain, 1 shield mod: 6 hp, speed 2, 19 sst, 1/-/-/1 defense, 2 enhanced output (4 adv) => speed 4.

Transport hull, ar 1, handling -2; modded => ar 2, handling -1, 2x+VSL days consumables: extra hard point, 2x maneuvering fins, 2x cargo pods, integrated system (hyperdrive) (10 adv & 1 triumph, or 7 adv and 2 tri) => handling = +1, 40 enc, 20 days of consumable, 7 hp left

1 dedicated cargo bays => 6 hp & 70 enc,

Navicomputer 5 hp left

1*life support modded 3 times, => 10 days and 4 hp

1 pair linked laser cannons 3 hp

assembly + 1 hp (2 advantage)

so other than being short 1 strain it's a perfect match but for pretty maxed out crafting checks.  however 10 advantage and a triumph is a little  unreasonable, if maneuvering thrusters cost 2 instead of advantage each that would lower it to 8 advantage and a triumph... I'll do that in just a minute

EDIT: http://www.mediafire.com/file/2w9oicv7s63dhmg/TheNubianDesignCollectivesWholeVehicleCraftingHandbook.pdf/file

Edited by EliasWindrider

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@EliasWindrider

Beat me to it!

(I've been working on the HWK-290 and KST-100 again, using the previous iteration of the rules.)

Nice little tweaks to the rules.

BTW: You can actually build the HWK-290 and KST-100 with the Single Ion Coil (with all 3 Speed Mods and all 3 System Strain Mods) and only use 2 HP.

I'll see about working through the rest of the list!

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12 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

Beat me to it!

(I've been working on the HWK-290 and KST-100 again, using the previous iteration of the rules.)

Nice little tweaks to the rules.

BTW: You can actually build the HWK-290 and KST-100 with the Single Ion Coil (with all 3 Speed Mods and all 3 System Strain Mods) and only use 2 HP.

I'll see about working through the rest of the list!

That'll get you to 15 sst, you're going to need an auxiliary generator to get to 18, which would be perfect for hwk-290 but it's 2 too few sst for the kst-100.

 

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@EliasWindrider

Okay, I see the difference between the two engines now.

The Single Ion Coil can get the Speed to 4 and 15 SST with the base+Mods, and the rest would need to be Advantages/Triumphs to get "Fine-tuned Circuits" (and maybe the Def 1/1 unless you pick it up during Hull Construction).

The Ion Turbine Engine can get Speed 2, 19 SST and Def 1/1 with the base+Mods. You'd only need 4 Advantage to get "Enhanced Output" twice to bring the Speed up to 4.

For the Kestrel, another 2 Advantage will get the SST to the required 20.

I think the Single Ion Coil works good for the HWK-290, while the Ion Turbine Engine works good for the KST-100. 

At any rate, those two ships work with the new rules. The HWK-1000 already did work with even the old rules.

I'll move on this week for the other ships (and I'll do a better job of analyzing which components do the best job of replicating the ships).

Cheers!

 

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2 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

Okay, I see the difference between the two engines now.

The Single Ion Coil can get the Speed to 4 and 15 SST with the base+Mods, and the rest would need to be Advantages/Triumphs to get "Fine-tuned Circuits" (and maybe the Def 1/1 unless you pick it up during Hull Construction).

The Ion Turbine Engine can get Speed 2, 19 SST and Def 1/1 with the base+Mods. You'd only need 4 Advantage to get "Enhanced Output" twice to bring the Speed up to 4.

For the Kestrel, another 2 Advantage will get the SST to the required 20.

I think the Single Ion Coil works good for the HWK-290, while the Ion Turbine Engine works good for the KST-100. 

At any rate, those two ships work with the new rules. The HWK-1000 already did work with even the old rules.

I'll move on this week for the other ships (and I'll do a better job of analyzing which components do the best job of replicating the ships).

Cheers!

 

I completely forgot about fine tuned circuits... thanks for the reminder.

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@EliasWindrider

The modified Aka'jor needs 18 hp.

Elegant Design Transport/Transport

2 hp Single Ion Coil

1 hp Hyperdrive 

2 hp Astromech Socket 

1 hp Sensors 

1 hp Cargo

2 hp Life Support

2 hp Weapons

6 hp Reinforced Frame ×3

1 Customization HP

It would start with 12 hp base.

It can get 2-3 hp from various crafting tables, but would need to score enough Triumphs to get Integrated Systems twice, on top of Cargo Pods ×3, Layered Plating ×1, and Maneuvering Fins ×2 (so 9 Advantage and 2 Triumphs, all on the Hull Crafting check).

It is, however, possible !

 

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Interceptor IV "Frigate"

Transport Frame (Larger Scope, Sil 5)/Bulk Freighter Hull

27 base hp +2 hp = 29 hp

3 hp Ion Turbine Engine
10 hp Cargo
1 hp Hyperdrive
0 hp Navicomputer
1 hp Life Support
2 hp Reinforced Frame
1 hp Sensors 
3 hp Weapons
4 hp Oversize Weapons Mounts ×2
4 hp Customization HP

This ship works fine!

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YT-2400

Transport Frame/Transport Hull

17 base hp

3 hp Ion Turbine Engine
1 hp Cargo
1 hp Hyperdrive
1 hp Navicomputer
1 hp Life Support
2 hp Reinforced Frame 
1 hp Sensors 
2 hp Weapons
5 hp Customization HP

Works just fine!

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7 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

The modified Aka'jor needs 18 hp.

Elegant Design Transport/Transport

2 hp Single Ion Coil

1 hp Hyperdrive 

2 hp Astromech Socket 

1 hp Sensors 

1 hp Cargo

2 hp Life Support

2 hp Weapons

6 hp Reinforced Frame ×3

1 Customization HP

It would start with 12 hp base.

It can get 2-3 hp from various crafting tables, but would need to score enough Triumphs to get Integrated Systems twice, on top of Cargo Pods ×3, Layered Plating ×1, and Maneuvering Fins ×2 (so 9 Advantage and 2 Triumphs, all on the Hull Crafting check).

It is, however, possible !

 

Hmmm,  starfighters get an astromech droid socket for free, maybe that should be expanded to sil 3 starships, I've also been thinking of increasing the transport hp to 3+VSL for a few days now.  How about non starfighter sil 3 starships can receive an astromech droid socket for 1 hp?

Edited by EliasWindrider

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0

5 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

Interceptor IV "Frigate"

Transport Frame (Larger Scope, Sil 5)/Bulk Freighter Hull

27 base hp +2 hp = 29 hp

3 hp Ion Turbine Engine
10 hp Cargo
1 hp Hyperdrive
0 hp Navicomputer
1 hp Life Support
2 hp Reinforced Frame
1 hp Sensors 
3 hp Weapons
4 hp Oversize Weapons Mounts ×2
4 hp Customization HP

This ship works fine!

Why does it need oversized weapon mounts, it can mount light turbolasers because it's sil 5.

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18 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

That would be fine.

I was actually looking for that in your document, because I remember that Fully Operational gave a free Astromech Socket to fighters, but I couldn't find it.

😊

I think I removed it because fighters had too mndany hp otherwise... but effectively giving them a 1 hp discount on a astromech droid socket should be fine so I'll do it for sil 3 starships in general 

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12 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

Based on the Interceptor IV stat block, they mount Heavy Turbolasers.

Medium and Heavy Turbolasers have a minimum Silhouette of 6.

 

Wow... hmm I don't think it can hav 2 oversized weapon mounts by RAW.  Maybe add a rule that you can add sil/2 round down oversized weapon mounts if both are added at the time time of construction?

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Yeah, I'm not sure if you can or can't take the Oversized Weapon Mount Attachment more than once.

I like your idea. Maybe call it "Integrated Oversize Weapon" to distinguish it from the Attachment. 

Note: I did include the -1 Handling and -4 SS for each O.W.M. in my calculations. 

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