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Icelom

Exhausted Heavy Weapons units and shooting

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If I have an exhausted MPL-57 ion trooper in my unit and I shoot at a target can that trooper mini use an A-280 Blaster rifle? or does he add nothing to the dice pool? 

To take this further can I choose to have a heavy weapon mini use the base weapon of a unit instead of its heavy weapon?

Thanks,

 

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35 minutes ago, Icelom said:

If I have an exhausted MPL-57 ion trooper in my unit and I shoot at a target can that trooper mini use an A-280 Blaster rifle? or does he add nothing to the dice pool? 

To take this further can I choose to have a heavy weapon mini use the base weapon of a unit instead of its heavy weapon?

Thanks,

 

The heavy weapons trooper has access to all weapons the unit has. 

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14 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

The heavy weapons trooper has access to all weapons the unit has. 

In case it’s not understood; when you exhaust the upgrade, you’re exhausting the gun, not the mini.

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4 hours ago, Derrault said:

In case it’s not understood; when you exhaust the upgrade, you’re exhausting the gun, not the mini.

That is true RAW. But as a historical wargamer I don't think it is representative of real combat to allow crewmen to switch weapons backwards and forwards in the timescale of this level of game. The reduced rate of fire represented by exhausting the gun  has been included to represent some disadvantage. Allowing the crewman to fire his personal weapon is mitigating that disadvantage.

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27 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

That is true RAW. But as a historical wargamer I don't think it is representative of real combat to allow crewmen to switch weapons backwards and forwards in the timescale of this level of game. The reduced rate of fire represented by exhausting the gun  has been included to represent some disadvantage. Allowing the crewman to fire his personal weapon is mitigating that disadvantage.

Well I figure it would be more the action of reloading than just a reduced rate of fire. Plus the minis have the standard weapon on them if you see both the Ion MPL trooper or the HH-12 trooper.

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9 minutes ago, TallGiraffe said:

Well I figure it would be more the action of reloading than just a reduced rate of fire. Plus the minis have the standard weapon on them if you see both the Ion MPL trooper or the HH-12 trooper.

It is common for a crewman to have a personal weapon, but this is simply to be used if his primary weapon malfunctions or runs out of ammo. His main function is to serve his primary weapon, not to add to the squads ordinary firepower. And regardless of whether the exhaust mechanic represents a reduced rate of fire or reloading, or whatever, the crewman is occupied with his primary weapon all of the time and is therefore not available to use his personal weapon. This seems self-evident to me, but apparently not to everyone.

Even if you argue that if there are no targets for the crewman's primary weapon, so he should be able to use his personal weapon, it would not represent the situation on the ground. The player, with his God view, might know there are no targets, but the crewman in the thick of battle and the fog of war would certainly not know that, and would have to be ready to fulfil his role to fire his primary weapon without delay.

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30 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

It is common for a crewman to have a personal weapon, but this is simply to be used if his primary weapon malfunctions or runs out of ammo. His main function is to serve his primary weapon, not to add to the squads ordinary firepower. And regardless of whether the exhaust mechanic represents a reduced rate of fire or reloading, or whatever, the crewman is occupied with his primary weapon all of the time and is therefore not available to use his personal weapon. This seems self-evident to me, but apparently not to everyone.

Even if you argue that if there are no targets for the crewman's primary weapon, so he should be able to use his personal weapon, it would not represent the situation on the ground. The player, with his God view, might know there are no targets, but the crewman in the thick of battle and the fog of war would certainly not know that, and would have to be ready to fulfil his role to fire his primary weapon without delay.

Have you tried the Space Wizard commanders? Their laser swords and star magic are pretty cool.

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22 minutes ago, Metropolis Games said:

It's like firing a panzerfaust and then swapping over to rifle.

No it isn't! The panzerfaust was a single-shot weapon, disposable weapon. If you want to draw an analogy it would be the reloadable panzerschreck, which had a crew of two, so that's two men preoccupied with their primary weapon and not their personal weapons. You're arguing as a gamer and not someone who is interested in military history. And although Legion is a game set in another galaxy, the fundamentals are based on our own military past (and present).

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1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

Have you tried the Space Wizard commanders? Their laser swords and star magic are pretty cool.

I didn't want to mention those. 

8 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

No it isn't! The panzerfaust was a single-shot weapon, disposable weapon. If you want to draw an analogy it would be the reloadable panzerschreck, which had a crew of two, so that's two men preoccupied with their primary weapon and not their personal weapons. You're arguing as a gamer and not someone who is interested in military history. And although Legion is a game set in another galaxy, the fundamentals are based on our own military past (and present).

I feel like swapping from a rifle to a grenade launcher in the game would be pretty simple as it isn't too heavy. The Rocket Launcher trooper might be different, but the E-11 is a pretty light carbine too so there is that. I figure when they move the rocket launcher they have it shouldered hence the cumbersome effect. I remember in Rogue One they had a rocket launcher moved and loaded and such. So I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility of swapping weapons.

And the ready action is just reloading and such. 

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4 hours ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

But as a historical wargamer I don't think it is representative of real combat

This is Star Wars. 

More importantly, this is the rules forum. Don't come in here pushing your opinions on the actual rules trying to tell people how a mini is feeling and thus can't use a weapon. 

Feel free to add all the realism you want. People are going to play the game differently. And that's something you should focus on. You are one of the few who want super realistic rules. The rest of us want to play the game as intended. 

 

Scopes work on light sabers. Heavy weapons can attack with their secondary weapon.

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17 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

This is Star Wars. 

More importantly, this is the rules forum. Don't come in here pushing your opinions on the actual rules trying to tell people how a mini is feeling and thus can't use a weapon. 

Feel free to add all the realism you want. People are going to play the game differently. And that's something you should focus on. You are one of the few who want super realistic rules. The rest of us want to play the game as intended. 

 

Scopes work on light sabers. Heavy weapons can attack with their secondary weapon.

I think forums are about expressing opinions, though aparently not if they disagree with yours.

Well, I'll make you a small bet. I will apologise to everyone if the next FAQ says you can use scopes on light sabres, and you apologise to everyone if the next FAQ says that they can't. Deal?

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13 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

I think forums are about expressing opinions, though aparently not if they disagree with yours.

Well, I'll make you a small bet. I will apologise to everyone if the next FAQ says you can use scopes on light sabres, and you apologise to everyone if the next FAQ says that they can't. Deal?

This is the rules forum. I said that. Rules should be discussed as RAW and to answer questions, not confuse people by claiming it's not historically/thematically accurate. Those opinions belongs in the general forum page where it will get more traffic from people who want the same thing. 

I don't care about an apology. I care about people understanding the rules.

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2 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

As do I. What I am saying is that the FAQ will say you can't use scopes on light sabres.

Yea FFG might do that. But RAW says you can. Just like RAW you're HH-12 can use an E-11 if HH-12 is exhausted. Any future FAQ is irrelevant to the conversation. We don't play the game based on what might happen, we play is based on the rules we have. 

Show me where the RRG says you can't use scopes on a light saber or the heavy weapon mini can't use the standard weapon.

 

PG 13

Units can gain aim tokens that allow them to reroll dice during an attack.

  • • When a unit performs an aim action, that unit gains an aim token. The token is placed on the battlefield near the unit leader, and will remain with the unit as it moves around the battlefield.
  • • Unit abilities and other game effects can allow units to gain aim tokens. If a game effect specifically instructs a unit to gain an aim token, that effect is different than performing an aim action and therefore does not trigger abilities that occur after aim actions are performed.
  • • During a unit’s activation, it is possible for a unit to gain more than one aim token; however, that unit can perform only one aim action.
  • • During an attack, a unit can spend one or more aim tokens to reroll up to two dice for each aim token spent.
    •  » Aim tokens are spent during the “Reroll Dice” substep of the “Roll Attack Dice” step of an attack.
  • • To spend a unit’s aim token, a player removes it from the battlefield and places it in the supply.
  • • If a unit has multiple aim tokens, that unit can choose to spend each subsequent aim token after determining the results of rerolls granted from a prior aim token.
  • • A unit can reroll the same die multiple times by spending multiple aim tokens; however, each die can only be rerolled once per aim token.
  • • During the End Phase, all unspent aim tokens are returned to the supply.

PG 37

  • The precise x keyword allows a unit to reroll additional dice when it spends an aim token. 
    • During the “Reroll Attack Dice” step of an attack, when a unit that has the precise x keyword spends an aim token, that unit can reroll up to x additional attack dice. 

PG 46

  • Personnel and heavy weapon upgrades can add trooper minis to a unit. While attacking, these minis can use the weapons of the unit card they are equipped to.
    • Heavy weapon upgrade cards include the ranges, attack dice, keywords, and other rules specific to the weapon that the Heavy Weapon upgrade card grants to the unit. 
    •  » While attacking, only the specific mini sculpted with this weapon can use it, though it may choose to use one of the unit’s other weapons instead.

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54 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Yea FFG might do that. But RAW says you can. Just like RAW you're HH-12 can use an E-11 if HH-12 is exhausted. Any future FAQ is irrelevant to the conversation. We don't play the game based on what might happen, we play is based on the rules we have. 

Show me where the RRG says you can't use scopes on a light saber or the heavy weapon mini can't use the standard weapon.

Yes, but RAW also says Suppression is gained from Attacks, and yet you were happy ignoring RAW when you agreed that Suppression is only gained from Ranged Attacks and not from Melee Attacks.

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4 minutes ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

Yes, but RAW also says Suppression is gained from Attacks, and yet you were happy ignoring RAW when you agreed that Suppression is only gained from Ranged Attacks and not from Melee Attacks.

Stop deflecting. We can discuss that later.

You still have to show me where the RRG says scopes can't be used on light sabers (melee) and why heavy weapon minis can't use the units weapon.

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RAW supports ranged attacks generating suppression. LTP says ranged attack, RRG says an attack. Since both documents contain the rules you need to put them together. Ranged attacks are the only attacks that generate suppression. 

Unofficially, this is also supported by the TO at the store I play who is in contact with Alex Davy. 

 

LTP PG 20

The most common way for a unit to gain suppression tokens is to be the target of a ranged attack. After a ranged attack, if the attacker’s dice roll produced one or more hit (?) or critical (?) results, the defender gains one suppression token, even if those results were canceled. When a unit gains a suppression token, a player places the token near the unit leader; that token will remain with the leader until removed.

RRG PG 42

After an attack, if the attack dice produced at least one hit (?) or critical (?) result, the defender gains a suppression token.
 » The defender gains the suppression token after the attack action is resolved.
 » The defender gains the suppression token even if all hit (?) or critical (?) results are canceled and even if it does not suffer any wounds.

 

It is possible to interpret the RRG as superseding the LTP, which is also supported by the Golden Rules. In this case, "an attack" takes precedence over "ranged attack", which means suppression can be gained on all attacks. 

PG 4

If something in this reference contradicts the Learn to Play booklet, the Rules Reference takes precedence.

 

 

Both interpretations follow RAW. People tend to follow the path that allows the rules to integrate and not contradict, so that's why people think ranged attacks are the only attacks that generate suppression. 

Hopefully FFG will clarify when the FAQ drops.

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17 hours ago, Don Henderson fan club said:

That is true RAW. But as a historical wargamer I don't think it is representative of real combat to allow crewmen to switch weapons backwards and forwards in the timescale of this level of game. The reduced rate of fire represented by exhausting the gun  has been included to represent some disadvantage. Allowing the crewman to fire his personal weapon is mitigating that disadvantage.

It's not representative of real combat. It's an abstraction. Most miniatures combat game rules are, to varying degrees. Legion opts for a relatively high degree of abstraction, to maintain the pace of the game and keep it accessible to a large market segment.

If they were going for a higher degree of simulation, yes, the heavy weapon minis wouldn't have the option of not firing their heavy weapon, or maybe of firing a sidearm. But, if they didn't have the option to fire their standard weapon (because, as you later point out, their attention is dedicated to serving their heavy weapon), then the game would permit you to have just that miniature focus on serving their weapon while the rest fire, allowing you to combine the recover and attack actions in the event that the only exhausted card was the heavy weapon. But that's not the way the rules are written in Star Wars Legion, because doing so would not have served the game's purpose of presenting a well-balanced and streamlined ruleset.

I'm with Undeadguy -- let's talk about the way the rules are actually written in this Rules forum, and save talk about how we feel about the way they're written, and ideas for variant rules to reflect a more or less simulationist experience in non-Organized Play games for the General forum or a future Variants forum.

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