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Smashotron

Deadly Precision, Lucky, Wookiee Avenger; Oh My!

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What is the appropriate timing window for the applying or converting -1X or +1X to the defense results?

Say I have played Deadly Precision and attack R2-D2; if he rolls a blank, and we resolve re-rolls, would Deadly Precision apply -1X to a defense pool of 0Xs, and then Lucky adds +1X to the defense results?

Say I have played Deadly Precision and attack Chewbacca the Wookiee Avenger; if he rolls an X, and we resolve re-rolls, would Deadly Precision apply -1X to a defense pool of 1X, and then Wookiee Avenger has no X result to convert to an evade?

Alternatively, I have been told that Deadly Precision would remove -1X result in both cases because the sum of -1X and +1X (in the case of Lucky, for example) is still 0X. Please let me know how you guys interpret these interactions and include any FAQ or RRG references I might have missed. I'd like to ensure I'm understanding this card correctly before I consider incorporating it into any builds. I have added the cards below for reference.

Edit: Follow-up clarification for Deadly Precision; since it reads "during this round" (as opposed to "until the end of the round"), am I correct that this extends to the end of player EoR effects?

Thanks!

Image result for deadly precision imperial assault skirmish

Image result for r2-d2 imperial assault skirmish

Image result for chewbacca wookie avenger

Edited by Smashotron

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My take on it would be that it would work no differently from any other "modifiers", and would be added/removed in step 4 of the attack in the usual attacker then defender order.

So if an attack was made using deadly precision and R2 rolls a blank, first the (non-existent) X would be removed and then the Lucky X would be added.  End result would be that the attack would miss.  (Note that if R2 rolled a "natural" X that this would not be the case and the X would be cancelled).

In the case of Wookie Avenger, the X would be cancelled before the evade could be added.

 

 

Note that while I'm fairly confident about my second answer I'm not 100% sure of the first.  It's possible that the "negative" X would persist, but since I can't find anything in the rules about having persistent negative symbols I'm going with the default and saying that you can't go "below zero".  That's how other rules in this game work, in any case (i.e. you can't suffer damage above your health).

 

 

Edit: For further evidence, see the weakened/cunning interaction if a weakened figure with cunning rolls a single evade.  First weakened (a mission rule) removes the evade.  After that, since there is no longer an evade symbol, the block bonus from cunning does not trigger.   This ruling is official (it's in the FAQ I think?) and so leads me to believe that these steps (mission->attacker->defender) are taken one at a time and are resolved fully before moving on.

Edited by ManateeX

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With timing "when attacking / defending" accuracy and symbols are removed or added during Step 4. Modifiers, in the timing conflict resolution order. Abilities with explicit timings can add and remove symbols in other steps.

Note that a negative dodge being added is different than removing a dodge. Removing a dodge would do nothing if there is no dodge in the attack/defense pool, but whenever a negative and positive symbol exist in the attack/defense pool at the same time, they immediately cancel each other (i.e. regardless of the order they have been added).

The list in Ability Resolution Order During Attacks should be pretty complete. Complain if something is missing.

Edited by a1bert

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42 minutes ago, ManateeX said:

Edit: For further evidence, see the weakened/cunning interaction if a weakened figure with cunning rolls a single evade.  First weakened (a mission rule) removes the evade.  After that, since there is no longer an evade symbol, the block bonus from cunning does not trigger.   This ruling is official (it's in the FAQ I think?) and so leads me to believe that these steps (mission->attacker->defender) are taken one at a time and are resolved fully before moving on.

To elaborate: Weakened adds a negative evade. If dice have added an evade, they cancel each other when the negative evade is added. Otherwise the pool still has a negative evade from weakened. If the defender adds an evade from a different source (e.g. Distracting) later in step 4, the positive and negative versions again cancel each other.

So, in step 4: Attacker - Deadly Precision adds a negative dodge. Defender - Lucky adds a dodge, and the positive and negative versions cancel each other.

Also, rerolls have not been defined anywhere, but it seems that symbols from dice are added at the end of Step 2: Rerolls. Only the after-reroll symbols get added to the pool. There are, however, some wordings that need careful considerations in conjunction with rerolls.

Edited by a1bert

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26 minutes ago, a1bert said:

Note that a negative dodge being added is different than removing a dodge. Removing a dodge would do nothing is there is no dodge in the attack/defense pool, but whenever a negative and positive symbol exist in the attack/defense pool at the same time, they immediately cancel each other (i.e. regardless of the order they have been added).

This is how it was described to me by the Palpatine to my Vader, but neither of us could find any reference in the rules to distinguish between "apply negative" and "remove one" for stubborn opponents. This helps me explain it better in the future though. Thanks a1bert!

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The Vibrogenerator ruling in FAQ 3.0 refers to immediate cancel although it is not explained in the rules.

Also, the difference of +1F and -1B brings you to the negative/positive symbol idea. An evade cancels a surge at the end of step 4, but a negative surge cancels a surge immediately (and vice versa).

 

Edited by a1bert

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@a1bert I was checking your Ability Resolution Order during attacks chart, and I noticed you have abilities that convert symbols like Soresu Form listed in the Rerolls step.

I have seen others say that symbol conversions happen during step 5 modifiers because they are adding and removing results. Which is why you can use Heightened Reflexes on a :Dodge: roll before Wookiee Avenger or Soresu Form from Kanan can convert it into something else. Can you confirm if that's correct? Thanks.

Want to make sure because of new Lando , we are ruling that his ability that double's a die results happens in the modifiers step, and doubling is kind of similar to converting (add something to the result based on referencing an existing die result).

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Tvboy said:

@a1bert I was checking your Ability Resolution Order during attacks chart, and I noticed you have abilities that convert symbols like Soresu Form listed in the Rerolls step.

The Soresu Form ability triggers on the reroll step because it has a reroll and doesn't have other explicit timing. There's no rule that says the "If if does," would be a different trigger. All abilities that I know of are resolved fully with the same trigger.

As written, I would say Shrewd Scoundrel triggers on your reroll of your choice (once per any activation), and is resolved in conjunction of the reroll. There is nothing that would implicitly or explicitly delay the effect until the add modifiers step. There are plenty of abilities that add or remove symbols in the various steps, including the spend surges step.

An ability triggers in the apply modifiers step if it has "while attacking" / "while defending" and it adds or removes symbols or accuracy and doesn't have an explicit (or implicit) timing to specify otherwise.

Edited by a1bert

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On 7/9/2020 at 2:47 AM, a1bert said:

The Soresu Form ability triggers on the reroll step because it has a reroll and doesn't have other explicit timing. There's no rule that says the "If if does," would be a different trigger. All abilities that I know of are resolved fully with the same trigger.

As written, I would say Shrewd Scoundrel triggers on your reroll of your choice (once per any activation), and is resolved in conjunction of the reroll. There is nothing that would implicitly or explicitly delay the effect until the add modifiers step. There are plenty of abilities that add or remove symbols in the various steps, including the spend surges step.

An ability triggers in the apply modifiers step if it has "while attacking" / "while defending" and it adds or removes symbols or accuracy and doesn't have an explicit (or implicit) timing to specify otherwise.

In your opinion, can Lando's Command card Cheat to Win be played before Shrewd Scoundrel checks the results of the reroll so as to force it to double the results? It seems to me that even if Shrewd Scoundrel doubles the results during the reroll step, they both (scoundrel and cheat to win) have the same timing window of happening after a die is rerolled. 

That was our intention but I want to know if we have to change anything to make that legal. 

Cheat%20to%20Win.pngLando-Calrissian-2-671x1024.jpg

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Posted (edited)

If you used Gambit, then you can play Cheat to Win.

(And I would say the wording of Cheat to Win means the die face/result gets changed, so that Shrewd Scoundrel has a die side with symbols to compare to. Or at least there's basis for that ruling. Shrewd Scoundrel doesn't actually say you are comparing the after-reroll results, because it doesn't explicitly specify on which die results and when to perform the compare.)

Edited by a1bert

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