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Crit Happens

Does standby work with a cumbersome weapon?

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3 minutes ago, Crit Happens said:

If my unit with a HH-12 Storm trooper moves, and performs a standby action, can it shoot when another unit moves within R1-2?

Rules seem to allow it.

That said, I don't think that's the intent of it. I expect a clarification on that interaction. 

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It's not a HUGE problem really.  The main thing Cumbersome prevents is a 30" (36" with Vader's motivation) threat range on the missiles.  The standby action limits the threat on it by reducing it to a maximum of 2.  Couple that with the min range 2 on the thing, and there's a pretty restricted 6" donut your opponent has to willingly walk into to get shot by the thing.

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7 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

It's not a HUGE problem really.  The main thing Cumbersome prevents is a 30" (36" with Vader's motivation) threat range on the missiles.  The standby action limits the threat on it by reducing it to a maximum of 2.  Couple that with the min range 2 on the thing, and there's a pretty restricted 6" donut your opponent has to willingly walk into to get shot by the thing.

True, although nothing actually says the attack you make with a standby token has to target the unit that triggered it.

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1 minute ago, Squark said:

True, although nothing actually says the attack you make with a standby token has to target the unit that triggered it.

This is true which means an HH equipped unit can move into range of a specific target, go into standby and then hope something triggers the standby before the preferred target has moved away.

 

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1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

Rules seem to allow it.

That said, I don't think that's the intent of it. I expect a clarification on that interaction. 

I expect a clarification specifically allowing it (I could be wrong). I think it's a good tactical option to defend against heavies. In doing so, they become stationary and of course can still be wiped out in one turn. I know because this scenario happened to me in my first game! Opponent took standby action after some discussion when we decided rules allowed it. I walked my AT-RT up and took a severe hit. Then I proceeded to roll 12 black dice and turn the entire stormtrooper squad into 6 black dice.

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The RRG has entries for a activating a unit and the activation phase. The activation phase is the whole back-and-forth stage of the turn. So depending on which term they're referring to in the Cumbersome, it could be "if you moved at any point this turn".

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41 minutes ago, Rumar said:

How do you keep track of that? Gives "cumbersome" a new meaning...

Just like every other wargame that has ever had weapons that can't move and fire. You remember it! Or place a marker down. Or something. Its not difficult.

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On second thoughts, there is a marker already. If you move it, you don't place a standby marker, and the order token is flipped anyway.

Edited by Rumar

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21 minutes ago, Rumar said:

On second thoughts, there is a marker already. If you move it, you don't place a standby marker, and the order token is flipped anyway.

There's no reason to forbid standby.. the HH trooper can still react with his E-11.

I'd mark the upgrade card with a weapon destroyed token if I moved and then went on standby.

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23 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Rules seem to allow it.

That said, I don't think that's the intent of it. I expect a clarification on that interaction. 

Logically and thematically there's really nothing wrong with it either.   The idea is you need time to set it up.   If you are in standby, you have the time to set it up.   maybe lots of time. 

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6 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

Logically and thematically there's really nothing wrong with it either.   The idea is you need time to set it up.   If you are in standby, you have the time to set it up.   maybe lots of time. 

Yea it makes sense, but Cumbersome seems like it doesn't want to work with Standby IF you move. But I'm not sure. This could be intended.

Also, I guess you can attack a different target than the one that triggered Standby. Which is weird and makes Standby way more powerful.

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"If a unit performs a move during its activation, it cannot perform an attack with a weapon that has the cumbersome keyword"

 

Seems to me that if you move, you cannot attack at all with a cumbersome weapon regardless of Standby. Note that it doesn't specifically say "during its activation" after "cannot perform an attack", it only says it cannot perform an attack, period.

Edited by Lord Tareq

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15 minutes ago, Lord Tareq said:

"If a unit performs a move during its activation, it cannot perform an attack with a weapon that has the cumbersome keyword"

 

Seems to me that if you move, you cannot attack at all with a cumbersome weapon regardless of Standby. Note that it doesn't specifically say "during its activation" after "cannot perform an attack", it only says it cannot perform an attack, period.

The full entry is (emphasis added):

A unit that has a weapon that has the cumbersome keyword cannot both move and attack using that weapon during the same activation.

• If a unit performs an attack with a weapon that has the cumbersome keyword during its activation, it cannot perform a move during that activation.

• If a unit performs a move during its activation, it cannot perform an attack with a weapon that has the cumbersome keyword.

 

Looks like it needs clarification.

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It could. However the first sentence does not undermine the last sentence. You cannot move and attack during the same activation. If you attack with a cumbersome weapon, you cannot move during that activation. (But you can move as a standby action, since that is no longer the same activation). If you moved during your activation, you cannot perform an attack at all with a cumbersome weapon. (Not even during a standby attack).

It's confusingly written, but that's the way I interpret it.

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21 minutes ago, Lord Tareq said:

It could. However the first sentence does not undermine the last sentence. You cannot move and attack during the same activation. If you attack with a cumbersome weapon, you cannot move during that activation. (But you can move as a standby action, since that is no longer the same activation). If you moved during your activation, you cannot perform an attack at all with a cumbersome weapon. (Not even during a standby attack).

It's confusingly written, but that's the way I interpret it.

To me that makes since. That unit is still activated and still have 1 move left, but is on stand by. Technically since you already moved, you shouldn't be able to attack. If you could move, take a stand by, and then attack, that would defeat the purpose of cumbersome, which makes it pointless. 

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33 minutes ago, AintNoPoser said:

To me that makes since. That unit is still activated and still have 1 move left, but is on stand by. Technically since you already moved, you shouldn't be able to attack. If you could move, take a stand by, and then attack, that would defeat the purpose of cumbersome, which makes it pointless. 

Not necessarily. Cumbersome would still be a limiting rule since you could only move and shoot if you used the Stand-by order, which depends on your opponent triggering it and thus he has control over you doing it in the first place. Its a denial piece of "Don't come within range 2 of these guys!" but its also giving up a round of shooting if your opponent doesn't do anything with it.

Especially since you can freely measure and stay outside of the trigger range of stand-by you are still gambling a lot with your attack.

I actually think it adds a good amount of depth to your tactical game play.

Edited by BadMotivator

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23 minutes ago, Rocmistro said:

Kind of tangential to this question;

If the Troop Unit Leader moves, but the actual HH12 does not need to in order to be in range (cuz range is measured from the unit leader), does the HH12 count as having moved?

Yes. The Cumbersome rule references a unit that moved, not a model.

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17 hours ago, Lord Tareq said:

"If a unit performs a move during its activation, it cannot perform an attack with a weapon that has the cumbersome keyword"

 

Seems to me that if you move, you cannot attack at all with a cumbersome weapon regardless of Standby. Note that it doesn't specifically say "during its activation" after "cannot perform an attack", it only says it cannot perform an attack, period.

But it's not during your activation that Standby triggers. It's during your opponents. RAW, it's totally legal to move, standby, and then attack with HH-12. You can even attack a different target than the one that triggered standby. 

I agree it is likely the intent is to prevent cumbersome from working with standby, but that's not what's written. 

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I don't understand why some people think the intent is to prevent cumbersome from working with standby.   Moving, and then staying put while you pull out your bazooka, power it up, calibrate your sensors, and then see someone to shoot after the fact, makes perfect sense.  

  Cumbersome + Standby are fine.  

 

  Also - it's not like standby is this miracle action in the first place.   If your opponent is going into standby and you are worried - just shoot him.  

Edited by Crabbok

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1 hour ago, Crabbok said:

I don't understand why some people think the intent is to prevent cumbersome from working with standby.   Moving, and then staying put while you pull out your bazooka, power it up, calibrate your sensors, and then see someone to shoot after the fact, makes perfect sense.  

  Cumbersome + Standby are fine.  

 

  Also - it's not like standby is this miracle action in the first place.   If your opponent is going into standby and you are worried - just shoot him.  

You're incorporating thematics with the rules which is why you think it is intended. I'm reading purely the rules and it seems weird cumbersome works with standby. From my perspective, rules are more important than thematics because the game should work mechanically, not thematically. 

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1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

You're incorporating thematics with the rules which is why you think it is intended. I'm reading purely the rules and it seems weird cumbersome works with standby. From my perspective, rules are more important than thematics because the game should work mechanically, not thematically. 

But both the thematics, AND the rules support it 100%.   The fact that I'm looking at both of them doesn't change a thing.   

 

  They specify THIS activation, for a reason.  Hence, they are specifically allowed to shoot during another activation.  Heck, it seems standby was made specifically for units like this on purpose.  

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I think the RAW for cumbersome suggests that a unit can use its two actions to move, gain a standby token, then fire with a cumbersome weapon. The text on the second bullet point probably need to be clarified, but the main text would absolutely allow it:

Quote

A unit that has a weapon that has the cumbersome keyword cannot both move and attack using that weapon during the same activation.

Standby triggers during a different activation, so it should be fine.

But that second bullet point does muddy it up a bit.

EDIT - submitted a rules query, will post when / if I have more information.

Edited by KalEl814

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