Thoughts on the T-47?

[Tvayumat 3,637]

1 minute ago, UnitOmega said:

I really think the T-47 is the git gud unit. Some savants are gonna get their reps in, and they're gonna kick some *** with it.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[UnitOmega 2,818]

3 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

I'll believe it when I see it.

I've been playing/following X-Wing long enough to believe it, and none of the units in Legion appear to be as garbo as some ships are/have been in XWM. 

[Tvayumat 3,637]

4 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

I've been playing/following X-Wing long enough to believe it, and none of the units in Legion appear to be as garbo as some ships are/have been in XWM. 

To be fair, X-Wing has a huge backlog of ships and was created in a (relative) design space vacuum.

Imperial Assault (And Descent before it) were created in a similar vacuum, where many of these concepts we now consider basic (surges, activations, etc) were very new to FFG.

It's only natural that those early days would have more genuinely trash units, particularly when there are so many of them.

It's simply not possible for EVERY unit to be good. One of the designers of M:TG did an article on the subject once and I agree with him, I also am a big believer in the "give it time, maybe something will come out to make it better" method, and FFG has shown they are very willing to release upgrades or titles later on to "correct" certain older mistakes in their units (IG-88 and Darth Vader each got this treatment in IA).

I just feel that, for being one of the major centerpieces of the first major release for this visible a game... The T47 has what seem (to me) to be obvious issues that should have been worked out prior to release.

As always, I am open to being proven wrong. I think part of my problem is that I LOVE the T47 in-universe. It's always been one of my favorite flyers from the movies, but every time I put it in a list the gamer side of me wants to drop it and add more activations.

EDIT: For maximum fairness, I should note that Runewars has a similar issue. One of the most visually impressive units in the core box (Rune golem) is... really not a great unit. It is redeemed somewhat in that it works as an upgrade to an infantry unit better.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Tvayumat

[R3dReVenge 441]

A lot of you are overlooking what you could get for a T-47. Don't compare it to units in the Empire faction compare it to the other Rebel options. 

 

T-47 + Wedge + Harpoon for 188 points.

OR

1 unit of Rebel Troopers /w Extra Trooper + 1 unit of Rebel Troopers /w Extra Trooper + AT-RT with Rotary Blaster for 185 points. 

 

 

[Dosiere 478]

I’ve been using it with the ground buzzer on the back.  It’s fun and OK performer, if tricky to use.  It dies pretty quickly, which actually I’ve used to my advantage as it attracts a lot of fire that would otherwise be aimed at my advancing troops.  

I think it has a niche on boards with terrain that can block LoS to it, as we have.  I think that’s going to be the exception though, we have a good deal of big forests and stuff that either block LoS or give it that extra cover quite often.

[Weatsop 64]

Order of activations is really important for the AT-47. It's not just that it's fragile. It's **** fast, too, and getting two volleys on (for example) Vader while he's out of cover is going to make him sad.

 

It's actually possible for a AT-47 to kill an ATST without the ATST ever getting a shot off.

Assault or even Standing Orders to make sure it goes last. Two moves to get into range of the ATST, shoot.

Next turn Ambush (and that's where it can be luck dependant), go first, compulsory move right up to the ATST with an angle just to one side, shoot, second action move to fly well into the back arc.

If the ATST tries to pivot, it can't get all the way around, can't shoot you.

Compulsory move a 90 degree turn (whichever side lines you up in the rear arc) or even just straight ahead if the ATST didn't turn. Wedge-pivot, shoot.

Compulsory move with an angle to get it just into the arc, (optional pivot / other action), shoot again.

 

etc.

 

Try it out on the table.

The problem of course is the rest of their army. The idea isn't that you fight a one-on-one with an ATST on an empty table, just pointing out the possibilities. Between the compulsory move and a pivot, you can monster whatever your opponent has furthest to one side, while the rest of you force goes up the guts. The moment there's enough suppression / casualties to let it move in, or if an important target exposes itself, you can come sweeping in and wreck something important.

It's survivable enough to hold its own *on a flank* if you can limit what's shooting at it (that's the big advantage over the bikes). It's fast enough to come in and hit pretty much whatever you need it to kill.

 

...not that I'm bringing one myself...

[R3dReVenge 441]

3 hours ago, Weatsop said:

Order of activations is really important for the AT-47. It's not just that it's fragile. It's **** fast, too, and getting two volleys on (for example) Vader while he's out of cover is going to make him sad.

 

It's actually possible for a AT-47 to kill an ATST without the ATST ever getting a shot off.

Assault or even Standing Orders to make sure it goes last. Two moves to get into range of the ATST, shoot.

Next turn Ambush (and that's where it can be luck dependant), go first, compulsory move right up to the ATST with an angle just to one side, shoot, second action move to fly well into the back arc.

If the ATST tries to pivot, it can't get all the way around, can't shoot you.

Compulsory move a 90 degree turn (whichever side lines you up in the rear arc) or even just straight ahead if the ATST didn't turn. Wedge-pivot, shoot.

Compulsory move with an angle to get it just into the arc, (optional pivot / other action), shoot again.

 

etc.

 

Try it out on the table.

The problem of course is the rest of their army. The idea isn't that you fight a one-on-one with an ATST on an empty table, just pointing out the possibilities. Between the compulsory move and a pivot, you can monster whatever your opponent has furthest to one side, while the rest of you force goes up the guts. The moment there's enough suppression / casualties to let it move in, or if an important target exposes itself, you can come sweeping in and wreck something important.

It's survivable enough to hold its own *on a flank* if you can limit what's shooting at it (that's the big advantage over the bikes). It's fast enough to come in and hit pretty much whatever you need it to kill.

 

...not that I'm bringing one myself...

~~

The T-47 shouldn't be used against the AT-ST. I believe it averages ~2 wounds a turn. Remember, you are better off using AT-RT to gun down the AT-ST. They cost 90 points and provide consistent shots. 2.5 damage a turn. If you decide to run the T-47 you should focus on suppressing 3 enemy squads. 1. Fly over them. 2 Shoot them with your primary weapon. 3. Shoot them with the Harpoon. 

 

[Weatsop 64]

1 hour ago, jbiondo said:

The T-47 shouldn't be used against the AT-ST. I believe it averages ~2 wounds a turn. Remember, you are better off using AT-RT to gun down the AT-ST. They cost 90 points and provide consistent shots. 2.5 damage a turn. If you decide to run the T-47 you should focus on suppressing 3 enemy squads. 1. Fly over them. 2 Shoot them with your primary weapon. 3. Shoot them with the Harpoon. 

 

The idea isn't that you fight a one-on-one with an ATST on an empty table, just pointing out the possibilities.

[R3dReVenge 441]

9 hours ago, Weatsop said:

The idea isn't that you fight a one-on-one with an ATST on an empty table, just pointing out the possibilities.

Well the T-47 costs ~188 points. The AT-ST will cost around ~200 points. If you are throwing your T-47 + anything else then you are losing the battle. You can't afford spending 270+ points for ~3 turns to kill a 200 point model...

2 AT-RT do a consistent 4 wounds a turn. That weakens an AT-ST in 2 turns and kills it in 3 turns. And it's only 180 points..... 

[Lord Cedric 141]

The AT-ST on average needs to be targeted by multiple units to take it down. I think that players are simply using the Snowspeeder incorrectly. It is not designed to be the frontal attack on ATST. It is, however, an awesome flanker and a great Speeder Bike and Infantry thinner. Vader will be hurt by it.. BUT you need to be far enough away that he cannot attack with his Saber Throw. It is a finesse unit and I think that it's full potential isn't shown yet. In my game yesterday, my Snowspeeder damaged Vader on one turn, then made sure I got my best chance to activate first next turn (I did!) and then attacked the flank of a damaged AT-ST, killing it. 

[R3dReVenge 441]

17 minutes ago, Lord Cedric said:

The AT-ST on average needs to be targeted by multiple units to take it down. I think that players are simply using the Snowspeeder incorrectly. It is not designed to be the frontal attack on ATST. It is, however, an awesome flanker and a great Speeder Bike and Infantry thinner. Vader will be hurt by it.. BUT you need to be far enough away that he cannot attack with his Saber Throw. It is a finesse unit and I think that it's full potential isn't shown yet. In my game yesterday, my Snowspeeder damaged Vader on one turn, then made sure I got my best chance to activate first next turn (I did!) and then attacked the flank of a damaged AT-ST, killing it. 

It isn't an "awesome flanker". The AT-ST can just pivot and shoot....

Edited March 31, 2018 by jbiondo

[RedSquadronK 22]

Got in two games with the Airspeeder today. I won both of them and had the Airspeeder still alive at the end of both (1hp and 4hp). It won me the last game by moving in, damaging and suppressing some Storm Troopers, and body blocking them from reaching an objective.

Some people have talked about having turns where the Airspeeder doesn’t shoot because of its mobility and I just don’t get that. It can and should be lining up a shot every single turn because it can more or less go anywhere it wants. Sure, it’s difficult to stay and focus down a single unit for multiple turns, but just let it spread the pain across their army in conjunction with your other units. The only thing I don’t really want to attack is an AT-ST.

The double activation (last on a turn then first on the next) is pretty key to taking out medium toughness units like AT-RTs. Just make sure you have other threats lined up in case you don’t get initiative, force them to make tough choices.

Maybe those are obvious, but just my thoughts as someone who was drawn to the game by the Airspeeder and had some success with it.

Also the 20pt back facing gun is way overcosted and a trap. I think even the harpoon is probably not worth the points.

Now to try a double Airspeeder list next weekend...

[Lord Cedric 141]

5 hours ago, jbiondo said:

It isn't an "awesome flanker". The AT-ST can just pivot and shoot....

I disagree. it IS an awesome flanker. Yes, the At-St can pivot and shoot.. of which it would unmodified. But it couldn't pivot because it was destroyed. 

[R3dReVenge 441]

1 hour ago, Lord Cedric said:

I disagree. it IS an awesome flanker. Yes, the At-St can pivot and shoot.. of which it would unmodified. But it couldn't pivot because it was destroyed. 

Like I said in my earlier post, the T-47 does about 2 wounds on average against the AT-ST. You'd need a ton of AV to bring it down in a few turns. Otherwise the AT-ST will be able to shoot the speeder. 

[MasterShake2 5,184]

Played double T-47s a few times.  Went undefeated.  Opponents now very annoyed by the sight of T-47s.  Unconcerned about the unit's viability.  That is all.

[R3dReVenge 441]

4 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Played double T-47s a few times.  Went undefeated.  Opponents now very annoyed by the sight of T-47s.  Unconcerned about the unit's viability.  That is all.

Get better opponents ;]. x3 Speeders + Vader + DLT-19 melt them out of the sky. Or at least they have in my games..

Edited April 1, 2018 by jbiondo

[MasterShake2 5,184]

2 minutes ago, jbiondo said:

Get better opponents ;]. x3 Speeders + Vader + DLT-19 melt them out of the sky. Or at least they have in my games..

 

Take own advice and get better opponents

[R3dReVenge 441]

4 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

Take own advice and get better opponents

Maybe you're right. I do win majority of the tournaments in my area. As for the T-47, I don't see it surviving against the best Empire lists. How can they survive more than 2 turns against triple speeder builds with DLT-19 spam? I bet it gets worst once Veers comes out and he can drop ~2 damage on it to start the game. It's just math.

Edited April 1, 2018 by jbiondo

[beefcake4000 371]

I’m wondering why everyone thinks saber throw is the way to till a t47? On average it’s doing one hit after dodge is factored in unless we are assuming that 3 reds = 3 hits all the time...  

Same with DLT squads which are putting maybe 1-2 damage through before saves. I have to wonder what all the other rebel **** is doing whilst your entire army is focussing down a t47 one hull point at a time which seems to have flown directly st everything in the enemy army....

An Atst would take it down fast if it finishes in the front ark but not much else should be doing it quickly. 

[R3dReVenge 441]

3 minutes ago, beefcake4000 said:

I’m wondering why everyone thinks saber throw is the way to till a t47? On average it’s doing one hit after dodge is factored in unless we are assuming that 3 reds = 3 hits all the time...  

Same with DLT squads which are putting maybe 1-2 damage through before saves. I have to wonder what all the other rebel **** is doing whilst your entire army is focussing down a t47 one hull point at a time which seems to have flown directly st everything in the enemy army....

An Atst would take it down fast if it finishes in the front ark but not much else should be doing it quickly. 

Vader is less of a problem (Veers orbital strike is what has my opponents complaining. Usually I can pick off 2-3 wounds to start the game since the orbital attack is 4 red dice, Impact 2, and ignores cover 1). At this point the Speeder has ~5 life and is ~3 wounds away from being damaged. Going back to my Vader example: Vader can always Aim + Move + Shoot which gives you a ~14" attack. If you get 3 hits then you do 2 automatic wounds since pierce. This happens usually later in the game. 

My current build includes 6 trooper squads and 3 speeders squads with Veers commanding. Speeders chew the T-47 to pieces. Usually causes 1-2 wounds per burst. Since your opponent is running fewer units, you can usually outdeploy them and position your speeder bikes perfectly. On top of that I run 1 HH-12 to give that additional 2 wounds to finish off the speeder. 

More testing to come.

[beefcake4000 371]

28 minutes ago, jbiondo said:

Vader is less of a problem (Veers orbital strike is what has my opponents complaining. Usually I can pick off 2-3 wounds to start the game since the orbital attack is 4 red dice, Impact 2, and ignores cover 1). At this point the Speeder has ~5 life and is ~3 wounds away from being damaged. Going back to my Vader example: Vader can always Aim + Move + Shoot which gives you a ~14" attack. If you get 3 hits then you do 2 automatic wounds since pierce. This happens usually later in the game. 

My current build includes 6 trooper squads and 3 speeders squads with Veers commanding. Speeders chew the T-47 to pieces. Usually causes 1-2 wounds per burst. Since your opponent is running fewer units, you can usually outdeploy them and position your speeder bikes perfectly. On top of that I run 1 HH-12 to give that additional 2 wounds to finish off the speeder. 

More testing to come.

Fair enough then, haven't tried Veers out so I'll take your word on it. No doubt the bikes are great at killing the T47, way better value/effectiveness than Vader 

[UnitOmega 2,818]

Speeder Bikes will probably get more vulnerable when Leia/Fleet arrives. Leia's Sharpshooter will take care of their cover, and she has Pierce. One of her command cards lets you give a trooper unit a free range 1 movement (It's her 2 pip, I believe, I've seen images of it on ebay) which means she can use it to sneak up into range. Fleet Troopers MPL Barrage will bring a couple of red dice w/ surge and Blast, probably range 1-3. If they can also sneak into range 2 for their primary weapons that'll be real bad news for Speeder Bikes. 

And then further down the line, depending on what the trigger for Proton Grenades are they could be very limiting to Bikes.

But for now, Support units are pretty good, probably why some of them have compulsory moves and several objectives can only work with troopers. 

[MAstaKFC 17]

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

Played double T-47s a few times.  Went undefeated.  Opponents now very annoyed by the sight of T-47s.  Unconcerned about the unit's viability.  That is all.

Would you please care to share some tactics? Thanks!

[R3dReVenge 441]

16 minutes ago, beefcake4000 said:

Fair enough then, haven't tried Veers out so I'll take your word on it. No doubt the bikes are great at killing the T47, way better value/effectiveness than Vader 

Vader just has the upside of doing significant damage to vehicles as you get close, but he's definitely not a "counter to it".

 

11 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Speeder Bikes will probably get more vulnerable when Leia/Fleet arrives. Leia's Sharpshooter will take care of their cover, and she has Pierce. One of her command cards lets you give a trooper unit a free range 1 movement (It's her 2 pip, I believe, I've seen images of it on ebay) which means she can use it to sneak up into range. Fleet Troopers MPL Barrage will bring a couple of red dice w/ surge and Blast, probably range 1-3. If they can also sneak into range 2 for their primary weapons that'll be real bad news for Speeder Bikes. 

And then further down the line, depending on what the trigger for Proton Grenades are they could be very limiting to Bikes.

But for now, Support units are pretty good, probably why some of them have compulsory moves and several objectives can only work with troopers. 

Her 12" range makes her not much of a threat (early on). That's cool if her pip 2 card is true and will definitely complicate things. Unfortunately, we won't be seeing the new Rebel cards/units until May. As of right now, triple bike is the way to go. 

EDIT: Her pip card targets 2 trooper units and they make a speed 1 move (seems legit). I'm excited to be using that one (link 1). The art matches the partial art shown on the FF website (link 2).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Star-Wars-Legion-Leia/162966679237?hash=item25f1922ec5:g:4zQAAOSwy5BauZjG

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/1/24/inspire-rebellion/ 

Edited April 1, 2018 by jbiondo

[Tvayumat 3,637]

4 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Played double T-47s a few times.  Went undefeated.  Opponents now very annoyed by the sight of T-47s.  Unconcerned about the unit's viability.  That is all.

Battle reports? Scenario breakdowns?

Edited April 1, 2018 by Tvayumat