Thoughts on the T-47?

[R3dReVenge 441]

23 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Fair to say, so comparing baseline without hardpoints, the AT-ST can still do the exact same thing with more control and precision.

I totally agree with you. The speeder needs a cost reduction (~140), or an increase in survivability.

I'd like to see Impact 4 and cover 2 with the same cost. 

[MasterShake2 5,184]

The game released a week ago. Maybe hold off for a minute before declaring the necessity of buffs.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

16 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

The game released a week ago. Maybe hold off for a minute before declaring the necessity of buffs.

Nobody is declaring anything.

By now, we have enough experience with the game to start this conversation, and I've laid out a pretty clear comparative list to describe precisely why I feel the T47 is in a poor place, balance wise.

You are more than welcome to present counterpoints, alternative viewpoints, or even anecdotal experiences.

My conclusion is a tentative one, and one that I want very much to be false, but I'd appreciate it if it were not dismissed so casually regardless.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Tvayumat

[MasterShake2 5,184]

8 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Nobody is declaring anything.

By now, we have enough experience with the game to start this conversation, and I've laid out a pretty clear comparative list to describe precisely why I feel the T47 is in a poor place, balance wise.

You are more than welcome to present counterpoints, alternative viewpoints, or even anecdotal experiences.

My conclusion is a tentative one, and one that I want very much to be false, but I'd appreciate it if it were not dismissed so casually regardless.

 

We are in very different places as I very much do not regard a week wherein many players don't even have a full grasp of the rules, no meta has even approached forming and we don't even have an OP document as "enough experience".  If you personally find it's not working, that's fine, but I'll give the same advice I gave to another local player when he asked how my T-47 kept surviving games and doing work:

 

Learn more about the game, and then come back to the T-47.  Every game has it's models with a high skill floor, Legion is no different.

 

 

The T-47 takes a lot of getting used to and the more I see players using the AFT weapon and Wedge, the more I'm convinced this is an absolute trap that keeps the speeder from doing what it's best at, that is, using it's mobility and high impact primary to skirt the outside of the battlefield or hunt down armored units.  It's also takes a lot of adjusting for players because they don't realize that the compulsory move requires a shallow approach i.e. don't fly straight at things, god (FFG) gave you a 90 degree arc, you should definitely use it and plot moves that keep targets barely in arc to leave you free for subsequent turns.  You also have basically a 90 degree potential turn for free with the compulsory move meaning it's one of the few vehicles that almost never has to pivot or use normal move actions to keep targets in arcs.  Also, most of the objectives require you to be somewhere specific and having something that can triple move speed 3 with a large base is a good way to get there in a hurry, so even it's not near an objective at the start of turn 6, it can totally be there at the end. 

 

Put it on the shelf, get a better feel for the game and how speeders work, then come back later.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

11 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

 

We are in very different places as I very much do not regard a week wherein many players don't even have a full grasp of the rules, no meta has even approached forming and we don't even have an OP document as "enough experience".  If you personally find it's not working, that's fine, but I'll give the same advice I gave to another local player when he asked how my T-47 kept surviving games and doing work:

 

Learn more about the game, and then come back to the T-47.  Every game has it's models with a high skill floor, Legion is no different.

 

 

The T-47 takes a lot of getting used to and the more I see players using the AFT weapon and Wedge, the more I'm convinced this is an absolute trap that keeps the speeder from doing what it's best at, that is, using it's mobility and high impact primary to skirt the outside of the battlefield or hunt down armored units.  It's also takes a lot of adjusting for players because they don't realize that the compulsory move requires a shallow approach i.e. don't fly straight at things, god (FFG) gave you a 90 degree arc, you should definitely use it and plot moves that keep targets barely in arc to leave you free for subsequent turns.  You also have basically a 90 degree potential turn for free with the compulsory move meaning it's one of the few vehicles that almost never has to pivot or use normal move actions to keep targets in arcs.  Also, most of the objectives require you to be somewhere specific and having something that can triple move speed 3 with a large base is a good way to get there in a hurry, so even it's not near an objective at the start of turn 6, it can totally be there at the end. 

 

Put it on the shelf, get a better feel for the game and how speeders work, then come back later.

We're in a thread titled "Thoughts on the T-47?" and basically what you're saying is "Stop having thoughts on the T-47".

Again, if you'd like to present YOUR thoughts on the T-47, I'm very open to hearing them, but this kind of dismissal is neither helpful nor reasonable given the context of this exchange.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Tvayumat

[Tvayumat 3,637]

Addressing the meat of your comment, dismissal aside:

 

28 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

The T-47 takes a lot of getting used to and the more I see players using the AFT weapon and Wedge, the more I'm convinced this is an absolute trap that keeps the speeder from doing what it's best at, that is, using it's mobility and high impact primary to skirt the outside of the battlefield or hunt down armored units.  It's also takes a lot of adjusting for players because they don't realize that the compulsory move requires a shallow approach i.e. don't fly straight at things, god (FFG) gave you a 90 degree arc, you should definitely use it and plot moves that keep targets barely in arc to leave you free for subsequent turns.  You also have basically a 90 degree potential turn for free with the compulsory move meaning it's one of the few vehicles that almost never has to pivot or use normal move actions to keep targets in arcs.  Also, most of the objectives require you to be somewhere specific and having something that can triple move speed 3 with a large base is a good way to get there in a hurry, so even it's not near an objective at the start of turn 6, it can totally be there at the end. 

You really illustrate my point.

The T-47 is a finesse weapon. It's far from useless, but it IS difficult and tricky to bring its weapons to bare on the enemy at the right time without exposing it to unreasonable amounts of threat, in return.

It's not beyond use. It can work, in a clinch. In fact, I think you're on to the best use of the T-47, which is to say wide flight patterns, using the compulsory move cleverly to keep it from being too vulnerable, and engaging at the RIGHT time rather than as fast as possible.

The PROBLEM, is that for all that effort, requiring you to outthink your opponent, use tricky maneuvering, and hope that in those clinch moments your luck (and dice) hold out... it's only 20 points cheaper than a comparable weapons platform which is easier to use, more damaging, harder to destroy, and requires far less effort to be effective.

Believe me, I've given the T-47 a decent workout, and spend a probably unhealthy amount of time playing out theoretical scenarios on the tabletop using figures and dice to get an idea of how something might play out. I remain fairly convinced that, in its present state, the T-47 does not earn back the points required to field it as compared to even the alternative Rebel offerings like multiple AT-RT walkers, or just extra Corps troopers.

Taking the Airspeeder right now requires a significant investment that is a chore to earn back. If it cost less I think it'd be in a better position.

I'd LOVE to see some battle reports from people who have used the T-47 to utterly hoodwink their opponents to the point that it was 175 pts well spent. I'd LOVE for someone to reveal the trick I'm missing, the magical combo that suddenly makes it more competitively viable than simply doubling up on troopers and walkers, but so far I haven't seen/read/heard it.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Tvayumat

[R3dReVenge 441]

53 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Addressing the meat of your comment, dismissal aside:

 

You really illustrate my point.

The T-47 is a finesse weapon. It's far from useless, but it IS difficult and tricky to bring its weapons to bare on the enemy at the right time without exposing it to unreasonable amounts of threat, in return.

It's not beyond use. It can work, in a clinch. In fact, I think you're on to the best use of the T-47, which is to say wide flight patterns, using the compulsory move cleverly to keep it from being too vulnerable, and engaging at the RIGHT time rather than as fast as possible.

The PROBLEM, is that for all that effort, requiring you to outthink your opponent, use tricky maneuvering, and hope that in those clinch moments your luck (and dice) hold out... it's only 20 points cheaper than a comparable weapons platform which is easier to use, more damaging, harder to destroy, and requires far less effort to be effective.

Believe me, I've given the T-47 a decent workout, and spend a probably unhealthy amount of time playing out theoretical scenarios on the tabletop using figures and dice to get an idea of how something might play out. I remain fairly convinced that, in its present state, the T-47 does not earn back the points required to field it as compared to even the alternative Rebel offerings like multiple AT-RT walkers, or just extra Corps troopers.

Taking the Airspeeder right now requires a significant investment that is a chore to earn back. If it cost less I think it'd be in a better position.

I'd LOVE to see some battle reports from people who have used the T-47 to utterly hoodwink their opponents to the point that it was 175 pts well spent. I'd LOVE for someone to reveal the trick I'm missing, the magical combo that suddenly makes it more competitively viable than simply doubling up on troopers and walkers, but so far I haven't seen/read/heard it.

I used the T-47 for 3 games and felt underwhelmed. I swapped it for an extra AT-RT + 2 extra corps squads. I haven't looked back...

[Undeadguy 5,749]

15 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

T47
- Not appreciably much cheaper than AT-ST at 175 pts base
- Difficult to maneuver AND position, dealing with compulsory moves that can easily run you into tall terrain or off the map, dealing nearly half your HP in damage. Even pointing your guns at the right target requires careful maneuvering and you will still likely end up off target or with no target a few times.
- Base weaponry okay, slightly better dice with lower range than AT-ST
- No really good weaponry for the single hardpoint. Harpoon is niche, ground buzzer is... alright... requires excellent positioning to fire front and back at the same time for not a whole lot of impact.
- Remarkably flimsy with only 7 hp and white defense dice, Cover 1 helps some, but in practice not a lot. Tends to go down pretty fast.

Comp move and then Wedge Pivot allows you to move behind enemies and then turn to shoot them. That's the biggest benefit over the AT-ST. After playing with some AT-RTs, once they kill the stuff in front of them, they have to reposition to acquire new targets. Wedge gets rid of that. He can also set up a front/rear arc shots for the ground buzzer.

Some other benefits the T47 has over the AT-ST

• Immune to melee. Luke and Vader have to lightsaber throw in order to deal damage. This is a big benefit.
• Immune to blast. You will always have cover 1. 
• Wedge.
• Quickly capture objectives - some objectives say unit leader, not trooper leader.
• Comp move suppression, followed by Wedge pivot to attack, causing the troopers to panic.

I see the T47 as a surgical tool instead of a hammer. It's hard to compare the AT-ST and T47 because they are not designed to do the same job. I think the T47 will find a niche build and be effective, but AT-RTs will be the staple for Rebel armor. 

[Chupacabra52 42]

I hope to get a lot of practice with T-47s. I want to learn how to pilot one and have it be effective since they are my favorite vehicles from Star Wars. Time will tell though.

[Inksplat 284]

It seems weird to ignore the fact that the AT-ST can be shut down by terrain, whereas the Airspeeder can pretty much hit troops no matter where they try to hide. 

 

If youre playing on a board with very little terrain, sure, the AT-ST is great. But my FLGS has lots of height 1-1.5 terrain, so there are plenty of places for troopers to stay out of AT-ST sights—there’s no hiding from the T-47 after it flies right over the building you were huddled behind. 

[Tvayumat 3,637]

5 hours ago, Inksplat said:

It seems weird to ignore the fact that the AT-ST can be shut down by terrain, whereas the Airspeeder can pretty much hit troops no matter where they try to hide. 

 

If youre playing on a board with very little terrain, sure, the AT-ST is great. But my FLGS has lots of height 1-1.5 terrain, so there are plenty of places for troopers to stay out of AT-ST sights—there’s no hiding from the T-47 after it flies right over the building you were huddled behind. 

I feel like this is so situational, though, based on how tables are being out together. Hard to rely on.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Terrain is usually the biggest flop of most wargamers. Often they'll have the field be too open and make the gunline armies OP because theres no LOS blocks (or atleast not in a place that does anything) or have too many LOS blocks and make the strictly melee armies OP because the gunlines dont get any chance to shoot before they get charged.

If you are playing in a field, the ATST will mop the floor with you. However if you play in a dense city like the streets of various cities on Tatooine, odds are the ATST wont be as useful because its pathing is heavily restricted and it wont be able to see a lot of troops until theyre right infront of it.

But its more common for people to have too few terrain than too many.

[shmitty 3,315]

The T-47 is an important tool as it is the only current Rebel option for high mobility.  Everything else we have or have seen is Speed 2.  That compulsory Speed 3 move is a huge benefit in many of the objectives.
  I don't need the T-47 to makes its points back in kills in any match that I bring it in.  I need it to be in the right place at the right time.  Scoring an objective or preventing my opponent from doing the same. 

[UnitOmega 2,818]

Also mathematically it seems the T-47 has the best single dice pools in the game in terms of average hits, it will likely not be beat for some time, and if it is, I bet it'll be by tanks and other heavy armor which lack mobility. 

[garciaj113 68]

Here is the problem with the Snowspeeder it is outranged by almost every impact weapon in the game and is outrageously fragile for its price tag. Once Veers comes out I do not hesitate to state that the Snowspeeder will be useless as his orbital strike will neuter ur 175pt behemoth in one strike and there is almost nothing you can do to avoid it. The speeder crumbles too fast and forces u to play safe, making sure you will never get your points back. In addition due to its price tag you almost never get last activation meaning it will open fired upon by a competent player. The snowspeeder is a really neat model, but I can almost guarantee you with what is available now it will not see competitive play, this may be subject to change if no one is running impact, but seeing as almost every weapon on the imperial side has impact I think not 

[R3dReVenge 441]

31 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Terrain is usually the biggest flop of most wargamers. Often they'll have the field be too open and make the gunline armies OP because theres no LOS blocks (or atleast not in a place that does anything) or have too many LOS blocks and make the strictly melee armies OP because the gunlines dont get any chance to shoot before they get charged.

If you are playing in a field, the ATST will mop the floor with you. However if you play in a dense city like the streets of various cities on Tatooine, odds are the ATST wont be as useful because its pathing is heavily restricted and it wont be able to see a lot of troops until theyre right infront of it.

But its more common for people to have too few terrain than too many.

While this is generally true, I believe the AT-ST is an exception to this rule. It's massive height and large range allow it to always hit a target. Now, you might not be shooting at the best target, but at least you will be getting your points worth. I don't think the AT-ST is overpowered by any means. I think the snowspeeder is underpowered compared to the other options rebels have..

[Gorthaur25 130]

His orbital strike is a four dice attack with impact 2. Then you have armor saves. Damage on a speeder will average out to below 2 and he can only do it once per game.

You need true LOS blocking terrain to help against the AT-ST and plenty of barricade type terrain for troopers. That also equates to things the speeder can't fly over. Then it doesn't matter how tall the AT-ST is. Then make the AT-ST pivot or move to shoot available targets. Don't park your armored stuff right in front of it. It's guns are really not that scary against anything that has cover if it can't aim. The speeder however can easily get flank shots where the opponent has no cover.

Don't use the speeder just to kill the AT-ST, use it to dumpster exposed units of troopers or commanders that it has flanked.

Also, in my limited experience the Cover-1 comes into play more often than not. If your opponent has to spend 3+ shots taking out the speeder it has probably almost made up for the health difference between speeder and AT-ST.

[UnitOmega 2,818]

Yeah, Cover is not to be underestimated. I haven't played much, but when I have, that cover step is always like, the most disappointing moment when rolling an attack pool, and very satisfying for a defense pool.

And I don't want to hear anybody go "but what about when Veers with Sharp/Pierce comes out!?" he's rolling 3 whites to do that, his scratch damage should not be what threatens your T-47. Leia may or may not be worse, while she's up to black dice she's down a range band.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

35 minutes ago, shmitty said:

The T-47 is an important tool as it is the only current Rebel option for high mobility.  Everything else we have or have seen is Speed 2.  That compulsory Speed 3 move is a huge benefit in many of the objectives.
  I don't need the T-47 to makes its points back in kills in any match that I bring it in.  I need it to be in the right place at the right time.  Scoring an objective or preventing my opponent from doing the same. 

The T-47 can't score half of the objectives in the game right now. I also find the "right place at the right time" idea fairly specious. That is certainly the *concept*, in *practice* however I have found that it is often in the right place for a split second before it's careening off somewhere else, with half its time spent just trying to be pointed in the right direction.

 

 

31 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Also mathematically it seems the T-47 has the best single dice pools in the game in terms of average hits, it will likely not be beat for some time, and if it is, I bet it'll be by tanks and other heavy armor which lack mobility. 

Also specious. The AT-ST chin gun is identical but for having two lesser dice and one full band more range on it. It is often able to shoot every single turn, where I've found the airspeeder is able to stay on target for one, MAYBE two shots, before it spends several turns re-acquiring. Wedge helps with this a bit, but it only really extends your time on target for one more round before compulsory zoom zoom carries you away again.

If the gun were just mind-bogglingly amazing this would make sense to me. It's great, but man it's hard to keep on target. Instead it's hard to keep on target AND... there are arguably better guns that outrange it on the other side of the table. Meh.

I hear a lot of people talk about "mobility" but there isn't much discussion about what this MEANS in the context of Legion. Mobility seems to mean being difficult as heck to position, having to fly perpendicular to the board edge for a round just to avoid being utterly isolated in the middle of the field, and being technically able to pass over terrain (which is an entirely subjective thing, each board is different, there is no standard to play to so this may not help AT ALL).

All in all the airspeeder's strengths are almost entirely situational, and that's not a good thing in a game like this with blind list building IMO. The AT-ST, by comparison, is not situational at all. At worst it might get crammed into a few paths it has to take but, honestly... that's not very likely given how boards are set up, and since you as the player have total control over when and where it moves, you can play around it. The T-47 can quickly find itself with nowhere to go but a whole lot of zoom behind it anyway.

Situational things are not good, IMO. It's the same reason I don't see much purpose in the grappling hooks upgrade. Sure, it MIGHT help... possibly... maybe... if conditions are just right... so yeah gonna leave it in the box.

[shmitty 3,315]

21 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

The T-47 can't score half of the objectives in the game right now. I also find the "right place at the right time" idea fairly specious. That is certainly the *concept*, in *practice* however I have found that it is often in the right place for a split second before it's careening off somewhere else, with half its time spent just trying to be pointed in the right direction.

I honestly get what you're saying about it.  It is piece with a lot of limitations.  But at this point I have no other options for a high mobility piece, so I am trying to figure out what it can do and where it can excel.  All I can offer is my own experience where I have been able to use it do deny opponents from scoring at the end of the game when no other unit of mine could get into position.  I've also had scoot around at the end of the game to easily score as well.  I'm not sure what point value that mobility is worth, but it has won me games that no other unit could do.

The compulsory move is a blessing and a curse.  My first game with it was entirely negative.  I'm starting to see where I can use it though and turn it into an asset.

From a pure killing/survival standpoint it is inefficient.  But it is the only game in town for Rebel mobility.  I want to have that tool to use in my games.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

2 minutes ago, shmitty said:

I honestly get what you're saying about it.  It is piece with a lot of limitations.  But at this point I have no other options for a high mobility piece, so I am trying to figure out what it can do and where it can excel.  All I can offer is my own experience where I have been able to use it do deny opponents from scoring at the end of the game when no other unit of mine could get into position.  I've also had scoot around at the end of the game to easily score as well.  I'm not sure what point value that mobility is worth, but it has won me games that no other unit could do.

The compulsory move is a blessing and a curse.  My first game with it was entirely negative.  I'm starting to see where I can use it though and turn it into an asset.

From a pure killing/survival standpoint it is inefficient.  But it is the only game in town for Rebel mobility.  I want to have that tool to use in my games.

Fair point, but what happens when some nifty Rebel speeder bikes or a light repulsor tank come along? Is the T47 shelved?

[shmitty 3,315]

1 minute ago, Tvayumat said:

Fair point, but what happens when some nifty Rebel speeder bikes or a light repulsor tank come along? Is the T47 shelved?

Maybe? 

I've spent more time comparing the T-47 to the Imperial Speeder Bikes than the AT-ST.  I think I'd rather have the cheaper bikes for my mobile option, but without Armor those bikes have a rough time against any kind of incoming fire.  It looks like the Commandos will especially tear them up with Sharpshooter.

[UnitOmega 2,818]

40 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Also specious.

No, your use of "specious" is specious. You appear plausible, but are wrong. Unless you're going to tell me how @MasterShake2 math is wrong. T-47 primary has the best probability. It's mobility and action efficiency means it's easier to flank and get clear of cover as well. It does, however, have some of the problems you list about staying on a stationary target, but I'm sure some X-Wing players are familiar with the concept of making attack passes. Legion is more complex due to shorter time frames and more flexible activation - so the question comes in if you feel like you can get your value in buzzing enemy infantry or armor at the right time to make it worth it to you. This is something only an individual player can answer and is probably based on the many and varied factors which cannot be accounted for wholly at the list-building phase. No plan survives contact. 

17 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

The top performer in each category:

Average hits:  3.75 (T-47 primary weapon)*

Average Crits:  1.25 (Rotary Cannon)*

Average Crits v Armor:  3.75 (T-47 primary weapon)

The * is for the Flamethrower, BTW, and depends entirely on what you're shooting at. Now with an AT-ST and it's Arsenal, it's possible to build nastier dice pools, but this requires more point investiture and also comes with the range limitations you mentioned, while also being on a slightly slower platform which does not cover terrain as easy. 

[Tvayumat 3,637]

6 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

No, your use of "specious" is specious. You appear plausible, but are wrong. Unless you're going to tell me how @MasterShake2 math is wrong. T-47 primary has the best probability. It's mobility and action efficiency means it's easier to flank and get clear of cover as well. It does, however, have some of the problems you list about staying on a stationary target, but I'm sure some X-Wing players are familiar with the concept of making attack passes. Legion is more complex due to shorter time frames and more flexible activation - so the question comes in if you feel like you can get your value in buzzing enemy infantry or armor at the right time to make it worth it to you. This is something only an individual player can answer and is probably based on the many and varied factors which cannot be accounted for wholly at the list-building phase. No plan survives contact. 

The * is for the Flamethrower, BTW, and depends entirely on what you're shooting at. Now with an AT-ST and it's Arsenal, it's possible to build nastier dice pools, but this requires more point investiture and also comes with the range limitations you mentioned, while also being on a slightly slower platform which does not cover terrain as easy. 

I don't have to tell you how his math is wrong.

It's enough to say that raw math is irrelevant in a game so dependent on board set up, position, and decision making. How do you account, mathematically, for the increased range and thus increased average number of shots taken on an AT-ST when compared directly to the fact that the T-47 is going to reduce range and lose a number of shots entirely dependent on unknowable positioning? You can't. You have to consider more than just numbers.

If you're depending on raw math to design a game like this, or even to analyze unit effectiveness, your very premise is wrong. Specious is *precisely* the correct word for it. The math looks plausible, but fails to account for the reality of the game.

 

Quote

It's mobility and action efficiency means it's easier to flank and get clear of cover as well.

See what I mean?

This SOUNDS plausible, but when rubber meets pavement... does it really? So far its "Mobility" seems like far more of a liability than a boon. How effective this is going to be is going to vary wildly from game to game, with some boards/deployments being such that the T47 can easily simply flail around, stomping all over terrain, making partial moves and failing to find targets through no real fault of the controlling player?

Edited March 30, 2018 by Tvayumat

[UnitOmega 2,818]

The math is a tool. It should expect the best hit rate, both in general and against armor. It is up to the commander to make use of that tool, and he can do it cheaper than say, an AT-ST on the Imperial side. 

I really think the T-47 is the git gud unit. Some savants are gonna get their reps in, and they're gonna kick some *** with it. It should not be dismissed because somebody will find away to best use its advantages and compensate for disadvantages. Though some of that I think on the "competitive" scale will depend on what our OP rules and layout are. Like how battle cards will be handled for instance.