Thoughts on the T-47?

[NeonWolf 942]

It kind of depends on how many points you are "wasting" not taking advantage of Arsenal 2.  Perhaps the harpoon is the way to go and just use it when you get the opportunity? 

I think the T-47 might actually be better against other Rebel lists than against Imperials lists.  Impact is wasted on everything on the Imperial side except the AT-ST at the moment and the Harpoon only works against AT-STs and AT-RTs thanks to Cover 1 on the repulsor vehicles.

[OccasionallyCorrect 347]

Unless you get a crit right?  Which bypasses cover?

[NeonWolf 942]

Correct, but that is a 1-in-8 chance on a single die.  Cover removes a hit before Impact can convert it to a crit.

[shmitty 3,315]

I’ve found the harpoon is solid just for dropping the occasional suppression on troops.  

[LunarSol 1,369]

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

You cannot Pivot on a Compulsory Move. You can only do that under a Move Action. 

 

PG 33

The primary way that units move is by performing a move action. When a unit performs a move action, it performs a standard move, reverse, pivot, climb, or clamber.

PG 21

To perform a compulsory move, the unit performs a full move following the normal movement rules, using its maximum speed.

A compulsory move is not an action.

I never stated otherwise....

[Undeadguy 5,749]

24 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I never stated otherwise....

Oh I skipped the other "think" hahahaha yea I agree with you.

My bad.

[Gorthaur25 130]

I have only played one game with it but it seems to warrant a similar play style to MC30s and Gladiators in Armada. At first glance you want to fly it straight up the board and start hammering away at the enemy. Then you find out that "surprisingly" an 800 point army can kill a 175 point model pretty quickly if it has nothing else to shoot at.

You can't hang it out to dry on it's own and need to support it with other threats. If I see my opponent push his speeder all of the way up the board in the first round I will just sit tight and blow it away before engaging the rest of the enemy.

[FatherTurin 1,818]

I’m thinking the key to using may be either the old “slow roll” from X-Wing (essentially set it up facing perpendicular to the enemy and move in with your first compulsory move to avoid a turn one engagement), or give it an order and activate it last so you can move in and shoot, then go for Ambush round 2 to move it first to get away.  Just need to actually play more and see how the ranges work out to actual distance and see if either is doable.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Flank with it.

Set it up last and place it on the side that has the fewest concentration of impact/pierce. You wont dodge it all but if only 1 thing is firing at it, odds are it wont go down easily.

Troopers can 360-no-scope it when it does get in range, but hopefully by then theyre distracted by your troopers and ATRT's. Vehicles, however, are mostly stuck forward-firing.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

So, a general comparison between the two faction heavy hitters:

AT-ST

- Relatively expensive at 195 pts base
- Easy to maneuver (no compulsory movement)
- Easy to position (plop it where you want and the height makes LOS a snap)
- Base weapon nearly identical to t47 but longer range and slightly worse dice
- Three hardpoints with three fantastic weapon choices to fill them
- Very tough with 11 hp, requires concentrated effort to take down
- Kind of sort of a little weaker from behind (not to the sides, JUST behind)

T47
- Not appreciably much cheaper than AT-ST at 175 pts base
- Difficult to maneuver AND position, dealing with compulsory moves that can easily run you into tall terrain or off the map, dealing nearly half your HP in damage. Even pointing your guns at the right target requires careful maneuvering and you will still likely end up off target or with no target a few times.
- Base weaponry okay, slightly better dice with lower range than AT-ST
- No really good weaponry for the single hardpoint. Harpoon is niche, ground buzzer is... alright... requires excellent positioning to fire front and back at the same time for not a whole lot of impact.
- Remarkably flimsy with only 7 hp and white defense dice, Cover 1 helps some, but in practice not a lot. Tends to go down pretty fast.

Guys... I really WANT the T47 to be a good take. I do. I love the thing. I love the concept.

The reality seems to be that it's overpriced, niche, difficult to use, and utterly pales in comparison to the pants-on-head-moron simple "Front toward enemy, make go boom boom" approach of the AT-ST. It requires more effort, planning, concentration and skill to operate and at peak efficiency it *might* equal a baseline, un-upgraded AT-ST in combat effectiveness. Maybe. All this while being constantly more vulnerable than its counterpart.

Maybe someone will prove me wrong, but my speeder is staying in the hangar until we get something more compelling than "Well you can exhaust a pilot card to turn around once"

Edited March 29, 2018 by Tvayumat

[KingCHUD 73]

6 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

So, a general comparison between the two faction heavy hitters:

AT-ST

- Relatively expensive at 195 pts base
- Easy to maneuver (no compulsory movement)
- Easy to position (plop it where you want and the height makes LOS a snap)
- Base weapon nearly identical to t47 but longer range and slightly worse dice
- Three hardpoints with three fantastic weapon choices to fill them
- Very tough with 11 hp and a red defense die, requires concentrated effort to take down
- Kind of sort of a little weaker from behind (not to the sides, JUST behind)

T47
- Not appreciably much cheaper than AT-ST at 175 pts base
- Difficult to maneuver AND position, dealing with compulsory moves that can easily run you into tall terrain or off the map, dealing nearly half your HP in damage. Even pointing your guns at the right target requires careful maneuvering and you will still likely end up off target or with no target a few times.
- Base weaponry okay, slightly better dice with lower range than AT-ST
- No really good weaponry for the single hardpoint. Harpoon is niche, ground buzzer is... alright... requires excellent positioning to fire front and back at the same time for not a whole lot of impact.
- Remarkably flimsy with only 7 hp and white defense dice, Cover 1 helps some, but in practice not a lot. Tends to go down pretty fast.

Guys... I really WANT the T47 to be a good take. I do. I love the thing. I love the concept.

The reality seems to be that it's overpriced, niche, difficult to use, and utterly pales in comparison to the pants-on-head-moron simple "Front toward enemy, make go boom boom" approach of the AT-ST. It requires more effort, planning, concentration and skill to operate and at peak efficiency it *might* equal a baseline, un-upgraded AT-ST in combat effectiveness. Maybe. All this while being constantly more vulnerable than its counterpart.

Maybe someone will prove me wrong, but my speeder is staying in the hangar until we get something more compelling than "Well you can exhaust a pilot card to turn around once"

AT-ST rolls white defense dice as well. Other then that I think compulsory can be a pro when used properly to get into position and still have 2 actions left.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Maybe a "Hard to Hit" rule needs to be a thing

When attacking a unit with the "Hard to Hit" rule, roll 2 less dice to a minimum of 1 die.

I mean, it is zooming around at a pretty high speed. It SHOULD be harder to hit in general, cover doesnt really help much.

[Rettere 247]

T-47 can take a dodge token right?

[Tvayumat 3,637]

19 minutes ago, KingCHUD said:

AT-ST rolls white defense dice as well. 

My mistake. Corrected.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Yes they can, least in the dodge section it doesnt deny vehicles from dodging. It would help it against impact a bit since now its effectively nullifying impact2 (cover cancels 1 hit, dodge the other before impact kicks in). Since it has a comp move you could get away with that every turn while its actually getting attacked, aiming when its far enough away to only get shot at maybe once.

Course it only helps against 1 attack

[Tvayumat 3,637]

7 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Yes they can, least in the dodge section it doesnt deny vehicles from dodging. It would help it against impact a bit since now its effectively nullifying impact2 (cover cancels 1 hit, dodge the other before impact kicks in). Since it has a comp move you could get away with that every turn while its actually getting attacked, aiming when its far enough away to only get shot at maybe once.

Course it only helps against 1 attack

And, of course, the AT-ST can also use Dodge, so (in the context of my comparison at least) there's no advantage one way or the other.

Now, using a commander that can give dodge tokens would certainly improve survivability, but that doesn't really address what is (to my mind) a weird points/effectiveness/skill imbalance between the biggest core releases.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

Yeah i feel ya there.

I think FFG put more value in Cover1 than what was worth.  20pts cheaper should not be nearly half the hp AND less dakka.
"But its immune to blast/melee!" that...practically means nothing. The odds of vader doing more than 3 damage to an armored target is pretty low anyway so all he even needs is the 3 dice from throwing his lightsaber to trigger impact3/pierce3. More than likely it'll never be close enough for blast, and funnily enough the Impact Grenades are not blast....

Feels like it should be 150pts as is.

edit: hmm...side note...snowspeeder does have arsenal 2....its gun is describe as a double lasercannon...i wonder if they fudged something and it was suppose to have 2 guns naturally? Hmm...actually that might be a bit broken lol nvm

Edited March 29, 2018 by Vineheart01

[azavander 150]

How about the suppression that the t-47 can make during its compulsory move.  This does seem like it could be of advantage:

end of round compulsory move, displace and suppression, shoot (hopefully add suppression), move. Next round, Ambush, Compulsory move displace again (now hopefully 3 suppression tokens) shoot, (4 tokens) fly away.

 

Pgs 25-26

When a repulsor vehicle mini’s final movement position would overlap one or more trooper minis during a compulsory move, those minis are displaced.

Gain Suppression: Each unit that had one or more minis displaced gains one suppression token.

[Vineheart01 6,403]

ATST can do that with a regular move, Repulsor vehicles are only mentioned more because they can only do it in the comp move.

Doing that with a speeder is also putting it RIGHT next to a multitude of things that can kill it.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

1 minute ago, azavander said:

How about the suppression that the t-47 can make during its compulsory move.  This does seem like it could be of advantage:

end of round compulsory move, displace and suppression, shoot (hopefully add suppression), move. Next round, Ambush, Compulsory move displace again (now hopefully 3 suppression tokens) shoot, (4 tokens) fly away.

 

Pgs 25-26

When a repulsor vehicle mini’s final movement position would overlap one or more trooper minis during a compulsory move, those minis are displaced.

Gain Suppression: Each unit that had one or more minis displaced gains one suppression token.

Interesting point, but largely luck/finesse based, and easily equalled by the fact that a fully loaded AT-ST can fire at four different targets and put out four suppression tokens, and then ALSO stop on some infantry for a fifth, all with more precise control.

[azavander 150]

3 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Interesting point, but largely luck/finesse based, and easily equalled by the fact that a fully loaded AT-ST can fire at four different targets and put out four suppression tokens, and then ALSO stop on some infantry for a fifth, all with more precise control.

True but a fully loaded AT-ST is 275 vs 175 for a base T-47 that could do what i suggested, another hundred points buys you a whole other at-rt loaded at the same cost.  I just got mine in the mail today, so I haven't had a chance to use, just providing a possible strategy that you could use on a base T-47 that might make the points little more valuable that we are not considering.  Panacing a trooper unit right of an objective at a key moment/turn could be huge.

[Tvayumat 3,637]

Just now, azavander said:

True but a fully loaded AT-ST is 275 vs 175 for a base T-47 that could do what i suggested, another hundred points buys you a whole other at-rt loaded at the same cost.  I just got mine in the mail today, so I haven't had a chance to use, just providing a possible strategy that you could use on a base T-47 that might make the points little more valuable that we are not considering.  Panacing a trooper unit right of an objective at a key moment/turn could be huge.

Fair to say, so comparing baseline without hardpoints, the AT-ST can still do the exact same thing with more control and precision.

[azavander 150]

4 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Fair to say, so comparing baseline without hardpoints, the AT-ST can still do the exact same thing with more control and precision.

Alot more control for sure, but not cover the same distance, speed 3 compulsory, shoot, speed 3 leave the area.   I think some of the 175 that is built in could be because of the ability to suppress with out even shooting.

 

Edit: Wait can you shoot and move or is it always move and shoot? (excluding compulsory)

Edited March 29, 2018 by azavander

[Tvayumat 3,637]

1 minute ago, azavander said:

Alot more control for sure, but not cover the same distance, speed 3 compulsory, shoot, speed 3 leave the area.   I think some of the 175 that is built in could be because of the ability to suppress with out even shooting.

I'm not saying that's not something worth considering as a strategy but... I will say that it's a very narrow benefit, and it doesn't seem like it makes the 175 pts comparatively worth it.

[kaffis 407]

18 minutes ago, azavander said:

Alot more control for sure, but not cover the same distance, speed 3 compulsory, shoot, speed 3 leave the area.   I think some of the 175 that is built in could be because of the ability to suppress with out even shooting.

 

Edit: Wait can you shoot and move or is it always move and shoot? (excluding compulsory)

Everything can shoot and move, if it wants. There's no proscribed order to actions taken outside of the compulsory move that has to be first.