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Kadras Kol

T-47s have Armor AND Cover?

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A T-47 has Cover 1, allowing it to cancel 1 Hit from the attackers pool before roiling saves. Cover cannot be used to cancel a Critical Hit. 

A T-47 has Armor, allowing it to cancel all Hits from the attackers pool before rolling saves. Armor cannot be used to cancel a Critical Hit.

My question is was this redundancy intentional or am I missing a rules interaction? Pierce can cancel an evade result after defense dice are rolled but that happens AFTER cover and armor would be applied. If the Cover and Speeder keywords are just something that it gets because its a "speeder" unit then why is it printed on the card when Compulsory Move is not? 

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Just now, Kadras Kol said:

A T-47 has Cover 1, allowing it to cancel 1 Hit from the attackers pool before roiling saves. Cover cannot be used to cancel a Critical Hit. 

A T-47 has Armor, allowing it to cancel all Hits from the attackers pool before rolling saves. Armor cannot be used to cancel a Critical Hit.

My question is was this redundancy intentional or am I missing a rules interaction? Pierce can cancel an evade result after defense dice are rolled but that happens AFTER cover and armor would be applied. If the Cover and Speeder keywords are just something that it gets because its a "speeder" unit then why is it printed on the card when Compulsory Move is not? 

Use cover to ditch a hit result before impact turns it into a crit?

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Just now, Kadras Kol said:

But doesnt Armor cancel them as well?

If no Impact: both cover and armor would cancel the hit.

If Impact and no cover: Impact turns the hit to a crit which bypasses the armor.

If Impact and cover: cover removes the hit before Impact can convert it to a crit.

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1 minute ago, Kadras Kol said:

But doesnt Armor cancel them as well?

Ok I get it now, you apply cover, then the attacker mods attack dice before the defender. I'm used to x wing rules. Case closed folks thanks.

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About the only time cover would matter is if theres hits that can be converted to crits via impact.
If theres 1hit 2crits, cover1 cancels the hit before impact kicks in thus saving you a damage.

Cover/dodge is applied before the attacker mods his dice. Which is a little weird so i expect people to mess that up alot.

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1 hour ago, Basylle said:

If no Impact: both cover and armor would cancel the hit.

If Impact and no cover: Impact turns the hit to a crit which bypasses the armor.

If Impact and cover: cover removes the hit before Impact can convert it to a crit.

So in order to ding the T-47 you need to roll a crits?

Would cover remove hits before they can be rerolled by Aim tokens?

I'm spacing on the order of operations this afternoon, must be all the paint I inhaled over the weekend. :P

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1 minute ago, KalEl814 said:

So in order to ding the T-47 you need to roll a crits?

Would cover remove hits before they can be rerolled by Aim tokens?

I'm spacing on the order of operations this afternoon, must be all the paint I inhaled over the weekend. :P

Crits or a lot of hits. 

If you have HH-12 squad at full health, you will roll 3 blacks ad 5 whites with Impact 3. 

  1. Aim action
  2. Roll dice
  3. 3 blanks, 1 crit, 3 hits, 1 surge
  4. Reroll 2 blanks into 1 hit/1 blank
  5. Convert surge to hit
  6. 1 crit, 5 hits are in the attack pool
  7. Cover removes 1 hit, leaving 4 hits
  8. Impact converts 3 hits to crits
  9. 1 hit and 4 crits in the pool
  10. Armor removes the hit
  11. 4 defense dice are rolled
  12. 2 blocks remove 2 crits
  13. Speeder suffers 2 wounds

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Just now, Undeadguy said:

Crits or a lot of hits. 

If you have HH-12 squad at full health, you will roll 3 blacks ad 5 whites with Impact 3. 

  1. Aim action
  2. Roll dice
  3. 3 blanks, 1 crit, 3 hits, 1 surge
  4. Reroll 2 blanks into 1 hit/1 blank
  5. Convert surge to hit
  6. 1 crit, 5 hits are in the attack pool
  7. Cover removes 1 hit, leaving 4 hits
  8. Impact converts 3 hits to crits
  9. 1 hit and 4 crits in the pool
  10. Armor removes the hit
  11. 4 defense dice are rolled
  12. 2 blocks remove 2 crits
  13. Speeder suffers 2 wounds

giphy.gif

Thank you.

Do you know where it's listed out this explicitly? Some of what's in the RRG and L2P guide suggest things happen in the same step of the attack sequence. This is how we played it, but we weren't sure when Cover / Impact / Armor all were supposed to happen.

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31 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

giphy.gif

Thank you.

Do you know where it's listed out this explicitly? Some of what's in the RRG and L2P guide suggest things happen in the same step of the attack sequence. This is how we played it, but we weren't sure when Cover / Impact / Armor all were supposed to happen.

The new reference guides for launch weekend probably has the best attack operations. I don't have any pics or scans of it though. 

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1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

The new reference guides for launch weekend probably has the best attack operations. I don't have any pics or scans of it though. 

Bah I must have overlooked it, I'll need to check for the umpteenth time. Thanks again. :)

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pg14 of the RR spells it out very cleanly.

Only real issue i have with it is they spread it out like that. If you are used to other FFG games like xwing you are going to have to reprogram yourself as to what a modification is. It goes:

1. Declare target
2. Form attack pool (decide which weapons to which targets)
3. Declare additional targets and separate pools
4. Gather a dice pool and roll it
4a. Attacker rolls
4b. Attacker rerolls (aim or other abilities that reroll)
4c. Attacker uses Surges if applicable
5. Apply Cover and Dodge
6. Modify Attack Dice <----this is where Impact would kick in (Attacker mods first, defender second)
7. Roll defense
7a. Defender rolls
7b. Defender rerolls
7c. Defender uses surges
8. Modify Defense <----This is where Pierce would kick in (Defender first, attacker second)
9. Compare, deal damage if more damage than defense.
10. Repeat with any other dice pools.

Now in games like Xwing, anything that is not strictly gathering dice to initially roll is considered a modification. So expect a LOT of confusions there for awhile lol
This also somewhat neuters Dodge imo, though it probably wont be common. If say an attack rolls 3 crits, dodge cant do anything when its allowed to trigger. Then at step6, the attacker adds a hit somehow (currently i dont think there is a way to do that but bare with me) and Dodge cannot evade it because you are past the window for Dodge, since its not considered a modification.

Edited by Vineheart01

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The biggest confusion going forward among new players is probably going to be erroneously thinking that surges are part of modifying dice.

I suggest teaching people that surges are an inherent part of the die roll, since they are literally just there to change the odds of rolling a hot or block. That should help people think of it right.

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27 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

This also somewhat neuters Dodge imo, though it probably wont be common. If say an attack rolls 3 crits, dodge cant do anything when its allowed to trigger. Then at step6, the attacker adds a hit somehow (currently i dont think there is a way to do that but bare with me) and Dodge cannot evade it because you are past the window for Dodge, since its not considered a modification.

Yes, but the trade-off is that it empowers Dodge and Cover to work against Impact. I think it's a fair deal for them.

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25 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

This also somewhat neuters Dodge imo, though it probably wont be common. If say an attack rolls 3 crits, dodge cant do anything when its allowed to trigger. Then at step6, the attacker adds a hit somehow (currently i dont think there is a way to do that but bare with me) and Dodge cannot evade it because you are past the window for Dodge, since its not considered a modification.

I think Dodge and Cover are at the correct timing. I'd prefer defense to be at the start instead of at the end. It would be very hard to push damage through after attack dice are modified if you can Dodge and roll defense dice. With it being early, you can stack Cover and Dodge, effectively removing 3+ dice. Then any left over damage will force defense dice and add suppression. 

I think Vader n Luke are more interested in Dodge because they have Reflect. Rebel troopers are as well, but I don't want to waste an action for that.

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i just hope we never get a "cannot modify dice" effect in this game since its so spread out with varied effects. There would be ENDLESS questions about dodge or surge in a "cannot modify dice" attacks (which under current rules is strictly impact/pierce i believe)

edit: Yeah, and having them first also makes cover strong despite being limited to Cover2 so you can never, ever cancel more than 2 dice via cover (per cover rules, if you have Heavy cover, the Cover X keyword does nothing, and everything is Light or Heavy otherwise)

Edited by Vineheart01

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I have no idea what would even be a "cannot modify" upgrade or keyword. Or what purpose it would serve. Does any rules material say "re-rolling" is a mod? I know that's typical for FFG but I don't know if it's spelled out. You could counter Uncanny Luck and Precise that way I guess. 

More likely an upgrade would exist so an enemy can't spend tokens on an attack/defense. 

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Not in this game no. Rerolling is not modifying, neither is cover/dodge/surges.

A "cannot modify" effect akin to Omega Leader for instance from Xwing would have to include all the words to work. Even still i just dont want that mechanic in general because i hate mechanics that are specifically "rob the opponent of his ability to even play"

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12 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Not in this game no. Rerolling is not modifying, neither is cover/dodge/surges.

A "cannot modify" effect akin to Omega Leader for instance from Xwing would have to include all the words to work. Even still i just dont want that mechanic in general because i hate mechanics that are specifically "rob the opponent of his ability to even play"

il_570xN.1478909853_tqde.jpg

vader.jpg

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Which is why i dont like ions. Right now they arent bad because unless you burn a lot of points to spam them you wont get too many uses of it, it might miss anyway, and it only affects vehicles.
I really, really hope they never add a non-exhaust or easily-spammed ion weapon.

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This is very very similar to Imperial Assault, except both attacker and defender roll at the same time since defense dice and modifiers can cut surges . Its pretty interesting to see how similar Legion and IA are, with the added Bolt Action similarities (another miniatures game in which you and your opponent put all your order dice (activations) in a bag - the same bag for both - so your opponent could activate 3 units in a row and then you get 1 and then he goes again, etc. - the random order of activation is crazy).

 

I do wish for the game to evolve in a good way... time will tell!

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1 minute ago, Vineheart01 said:

Which is why i dont like ions. Right now they arent bad because unless you burn a lot of points to spam them you wont get too many uses of it, it might miss anyway, and it only affects vehicles.
I really, really hope they never add a non-exhaust or easily-spammed ion weapon.

Yeah agreed.

It doesn't seem SUPER likely that people will be in a spot where someone is willing to double ion a vehicle constantly... whoever is doing that would be committing a ton of activations with the current equipment. And I'd hope that the suppression / panic mechanics would make it unlikely that they'd add in other ways to cause troopers to derp.

If I was going to wager, it would be that they'll add ways to remove ion tokens via some kinda repair hean. Who knows.

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