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Look, I'm not saying the European X-Wing community is better than the US X-Wing community... but...

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19 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Lol, don't make fun of Bald Eagles. They have the record for "heaviest recorded prey that was carried off" for any flying bird. A 15lb deer fawn. May not be the biggest eagle, but it can carry the biggest loads.

Yup, this would have been pretty **** scary...

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10 hours ago, Managarmr said:

Sweden, Finland and Norway have less than that. And at least Sweden has a quite active X-wing scene. 

Then you cannot only look at the country's mean pop density. Scottish Highlands e.g. are empty, bad luck being a X-wing player there or on Orkneys or Shetlands.

US has many largely empty areas, but other parts are really densely populated, some of these areas have more population than the whole of Finland or Norway :)

Sure, but we're not talking about everywhere in Europe as drawing larger crowds, and those locations you mention are not as well attended as most US regional tourneys.   We're generally talking about why some (not all) of the European tourneys are able to draw the biggest crowds of all X-Wing tourneys anywhere. 

4 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

Indeed.  And population density is only a partial answer as well.  It still usually takes international players attending events a couple of hours journey round trip to the airport (on average), plus a couple of hours flight, plus overnight stays.

And there's still a LOT of them who do it.

I actually don't think it is a partial answer -- I think it is the central answer, at least in absence of other evidence.   I mean, are you talking about 5-10 players, 50, 100?  At regional tournaments or System Opens?  Do those people have opportunities for other System Opens near them?

That said, I'm not surprised that people would go to great effort to play in the largest X-wing tourney ever (which again, I think can again be explained by population density as the main factor).   That by itself is a selling point. 

I don't know that they'd go to that effort just because they think Europe is some kind of magical X-wing utopia.   If you think that, that's fine (and you may be right) but all of your points outside of attendance are anecdotal and in order to prove what and to what end?

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5 hours ago, __underscore__ said:

One thing I have noticed though, across gaming (tabletop/esports etc) in general, is that the American philosophy when it comes to top level play is to do the *best* thing the _*!best!*_, whereas a lot of European cultures prize some kind of anti-meta more. You can usually see that in top-level character picks and so on when games have continent-level competition. 

There is also some of "well, that's not gonna happen to me" psychology as well.

Like the guy who drives a huge SUV so that if he gets into an accident, the other guy dies.  I drive a Smart car.  Again, I can't tell you the number of times I've heard I'm a fool because "It's too small.  I'm gonna be in the bigger car so I don't die."

So players play Uber Meta (the SUVs of XWM) because "somebody else will if I don't," and they don't want to be on the losing side of that equation.

 

Edited by Darth Meanie

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On 3/26/2018 at 11:20 AM, FTS Gecko said:
  • the European events are bigger with larger attendances from a greater cross-section of communities
  • the European players seem to be more respectful to the organisers, the hosts, FFG and each other
  • a greater variety of lists in European events seem to be successful - in Swiss, at the top tables, the cut and the finals
  • and European players actually seem to be enjoying themselves

Now, is this really an accurate picture, or just the impression caused by the vocal saltiness coming from the west side of the Atlantic?

To the first point, a lot of the countries in Europe are about the size of American states, so it would make sense that there would would be more diversity crossing nation borders versus a US state border.

I attended our regional in Georgia and thought everyone was well behaved, respectful of the organizers and each other.  I enjoyed myself despite going 2-4 and met a number of new friends.

A friend of mine dropped at 1-3 to have free time to drink a few beers and catch up with old friends.

I think the experience you have varies from place to place, but I've always had fun in the events I've played.

Edited by USCGrad90

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3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

There is also a lot of "well, that's not gonna happen to me" psychology as well.

Like the guy who drives a huge SUV so that if he gets into an accident, the other guy dies.  I drive a Smart car.  Again, I can't tell you the number of times I've heard I'm a fool because "It's too small.  I'm gonna be in the bigger car so I don't die."

So players play Uber Meta (the SUVs of XWM) because "somebody else will if I don't," and they don't want to be on the losing side of that equation.

 

i'd try to avoid being too pejorative about these things - those kinds of sentiments are just as common over here as well. 

I feel like the bigger difference is that if you're taking a meta list then you're relying on having the ability to practice and just be flat out better than everyone else to make the most of it (or that you're a Chosen One to whom the dice shall bless with great results...). For some that's a factor within their control, but for others it's a gamble as you can't control the free time of your opponent.

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24 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I actually don't think it is a partial answer -- I think it is the central answer, at least in absence of other evidence.   I mean, are you talking about 5-10 players, 50, 100?  At regional tournaments or System Opens?  Do those people have opportunities for other System Opens near them?

One thing not to underestimate is the low cost of flying in Europe. There's a huge amount of competition between a number of airlines and the fare is likely going to be the cheapest part of the trip.

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10 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

i'd try to avoid being too pejorative about these things - 

That was not my intention.

I use the car example because the conversation usually starts with "Oh, it's so, cute, I'll bet you get great gas mileage" then turn's into "I would never, because. . . "

Some people like pick-up trucks.  Some people need pick-up trucks.

But then there is is this weird collection of folks who feel like they have to drive a pick-up truck because "safety" but then complain because it's a gas-guzzler.

I see an XWM meta analogy in there.

Edited by Darth Meanie

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I should also add that my 3 least enjoyable games of x-wing ever were at Exeter Regionals and GVC last year (in the UK). I had a guy slow play so badly after I took an early lead and a guy throw a full on tantrum when he made the mistake of jousting my list at Exeter and had a guy punch the table when I beat him at GVC. I also went to 2 tournament's where I got a load of verbal from the some other players for having a "meta" list.

In 2016 the TO's for GVC got a lot of grief off of players as TOME did some funny things and messed up the rankings. 

I have never been to America to have any sort of first hand comparison but as I said in my previous post; it's not all peaches and cream over here. There are toxic people and communities.

Now I've said that; I'd like to point out those occurrences are most definitely in the minority and I usually have great fun at the events I go to and run myself.

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1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

I use the car example because the conversation usually starts with "Oh, it's so, cute, I'll bet you get great gas mileage" then turn's into "I would never, because. . . "

Some people like pick-up trucks.  Some people need pick-up trucks.

But then there is is this weird collection of folks who feel like they have to drive a pick-up truck because "safety."

I see an XWM meta analogy in there.

Like I said though, that line of thinking is common everywhere so I wouldn't try to extrapolate too much from it.  

Well, maybe not about pickups specifically. We have maintained some standards over here at least. ;)

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3 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Yeah, you know that video was faked right?

I look at it and wonder "did they have a target out there and then switch it when the camera wasn't looking?"

That said there wasn't a "carry off" there although I have a more respect for the Golden Eagles here in North America than I do the Bald Eagle.  The Bald Eagle is just easier for people to recognize.  In any case while I respect the Bald Eagles in North America they aren't the "best" eagle in the world.  From some of the reading I've done the biggest ones were somewhere in the South Pacific or Oceana on one of those islands where they hunted giant ground birds.

 

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On 2018-03-26 at 6:18 PM, dotswarlock said:

On Hoth (Canada), we have Wampas to worry about.  No time for complaining...

 

 

The Nordics say hi!

The local group in Sweden's capital is called Stockholm Wampas.

I guess hockey and curling aren't the only things we are better than you at...

;)

Small addendum for clarity: 

THIS IS ALL TONGUE IN CHEEK
(except the hockey part)

Edited by Veldrin

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On 3/27/2018 at 8:23 PM, Managarmr said:

Sweden, Finland and Norway have less than that. And at least Sweden has a quite active X-wing scene. 

Then you cannot only look at the country's mean pop density. Scottish Highlands e.g. are empty, bad luck being a X-wing player there or on Orkneys or Shetlands.

US has many largely empty areas, but other parts are really densely populated, some of these areas have more population than the whole of Finland or Norway :)

Something like 90% of Norway's Population is within 500km of one another, lol.  I don't think you've ever looked a density map of the United States.  There's probably enough space for like 10 Norways within the land areas of the US that have 10 or fewer people per square kilometer.

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3 minutes ago, TheVeteranSergeant said:

Something like 90% of Norway's Population is within 500km of one another, lol.  I don't think you've ever looked a density map of the United States.  There's probably enough space for like 10 Norways within the land areas of the US that have 10 or fewer people per square kilometer.

...and?  Are you saying that all the X-Wing tournaments in the US are held where the population density is at it's lowest?  Or are they usually held in high-density urban population areas?  If it's the latter, what's the difference?

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4 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

...and?  Are you saying that all the X-Wing tournaments in the US are held where the population density is at it's lowest?  Or are they usually held in high-density urban population areas?  If it's the latter, what's the difference?

Maybe you're just talking about Sweden, but that's exactly why we're talking about population density and not city size.    It's not just about how big the city is where the tournament is held.  It's also about how many people are within a reasonable area and easy travel distance of that city.   Big US population centers are very spread out.    Someone from Europe (I think it was Old Para) already pointed out that he had 6 regionals within a 5 hour driving distance of him.    Unless he's perfectly placed somehow, there's really a small spot in the East Coast where there's anything close to that.   That also doesn't address the price of travel, which many people have pointed out is more costly in the US).

Edited by AlexW

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25 minutes ago, AlexW said:

That also doesn't address the price of travel, which many people have pointed out is more costly in the US).

That would depend on the mode of travel, I guess.  Flight prices between European countries may be cheaper thanks to low-cost airlines, but petrol (Gas) prices in most European countries are approximately double that of the US (link).  The average household income in many European countries is also much lower than the US.

 

Edited by FTS Gecko

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24 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

That would depend on the mode of travel, I guess.  Flight prices between European countries may be cheaper thanks to low-cost airlines, but petrol (Gas) prices in most European countries are approximately double that of the US (link).  The average household income in many European countries is also much lower than the US.

 

Sure, but if you're driving half as far :P   There's a threshold where it doesn't seem to matter, though, right?  The difference between $25-$50  for a full tank isn't insignificant but it's not as big as the difference in cost of flight or needing a hotel stay because of the distance of travel.     Also, doesn't  Europe have a better public transportation system?   Maybe tournament goers don't use that?   

I think for most X-wing players it's not the smaller costs of driving (which can also be easily split if you can find a buddy or two), it's the multiplicative effects that distance has on the investment of time and money. 

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7 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Spoken like a man who, I presume, has never been beyond the US East Coast. :)

Hey, I've seen Planes, Trains & Automobiles.  And, more recently, Unstoppable.

British trains have a rather distinctive smell to them.  It's somewhat similar to a bar W.C. at the end of a busy night.  On Taco Tuesday.  I reckon at least half of the delays are caused by drivers passing out from the fumes.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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7 hours ago, Veldrin said:

The Nordics say hi!

The local group in Sweden's capital is called Stockholm Wampas.

I guess hockey and curling aren't the only things we are better than you at...

;)

Small addendum for clarity: 

THIS IS ALL TONGUE IN CHEEK
(except the hockey part)

hockey and curling you say?

Image result for curling gold medal

Image result for women's hockey gold medal

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