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Hoth Open Final

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Stale meta and people having fun aren’t mutually exclusive.   

I haven’t really enjoyed a meta in several waves since the elements I enjoy most aren’t as relevant,  but I have had fun at every tourney I’ve been at because I like the game and the community.   

 

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1 hour ago, __underscore__ said:

Incidentally, I did notice a fair dropoff in attendance from our continental friends this time around. I found that slightly surprising considering this one didn't have the Expo overhead. But maybe the ticket issues put off bigger groups travelling.

There was still a fair few European players at the event, but if there was a drop off it may also have something to do with the Open selling out in 24 hours, and not all of the European Opens having been announced at the same time (IIRC there were three European Opens still to be confirmed when the UK Open went on sale).

I found it impossible to get a ticket to a Regional this year; my closest Regional sold out in 24 hours or so as well, with 120+ players.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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This kind of a situation is why I like flying Dash - endgame resolution is quick and easy - yet often very tense. He has the power to punch through anything except a Focus+Evade+Autothrusters+AGI3 ace (which his wingman should be able to cope with). He has a number of his own early game weaknesses, so it's almost universally an intellectual game where a single mistake can cost both players the victory.

Contrast this kind of game (which can be had with a majority of lists to some degree) with that of a near mirror-match final game where, assuming both players aren't idiots, the only possible conclusion is a draw. Mathematically speaking, the best choice is always to save your focus token for defense in that Miranda on Miranda final, and she's got so much hull and shields that a damage spike on a TLT is meaningless.

I don't blame the players for running such boring lists per se; FFG created crap like this that can be abused. But I think they could have called it as soon as it was a healthy Miranda Vs healthy Miranda matchup. even if unimaginably good dice created a winner there, it's a victory at the top tables by pure, random chance - essentially a roll-off for the victory anyway. So why bother rolling off for the victory over 2 hours when you can do it in a minute via final salvo instead?

I'll second the calls of other players - fly what you love. So long as you're the better player, and you have a well-designed list that's built with defenses against meta staples you'll win, and enjoy it all the more for it. I love beating RAC with Ghost/Dash. I adored beating triple aces with my Asajj, Unkar and Viktor fun list. Hopefully the upcoming X-wing fix will help players get back to the basics, or at least draw attention away from the current favourites.

I consider players who fly meta lists to not be participating in the game at all (with notable exceptions like casual games); instead, they're automatons that, over the course of hundreds or thousands of games have programmed themselves with an algorithm they believe will lead to success a statistically maximised amount of time. Like a chess player who only plays the same opening - and refuses to play black altogether - they're cutting themselves off from improvement, enjoyment, variety and doing the same to their opponents. So I suppose the players really are to blame after all - they chose to prioritise winning over having fun - for several days in a row, they put their humanity on hold for a chance of satisfying the competitive itch. I pity the player that came second going into the final match with that mindset.

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42 minutes ago, Astech said:

This kind of a situation is why I like flying Dash - endgame resolution is quick and easy - yet often very tense. He has the power to punch through anything except a Focus+Evade+Autothrusters+AGI3 ace (which his wingman should be able to cope with). He has a number of his own early game weaknesses, so it's almost universally an intellectual game where a single mistake can cost both players the victory.

It's funny how players view different ships in completely different ways.  

I view Dash as a refuge for conservative players, who can fly wherever they want and can still take shots with the one of the biggest guns in the game.  I'm not saying I'm right, but it seems to me a ship whose main weakness only comes forth when hard countered or seriously outplayed. 

I'm sure there are people who think my favorite ships are boorish as well.  We all like to think our favorites require cunning and boldness to maximize their strengths, while opponent's ships are solidly reliable across a broad spectrum of situations.

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21 hours ago, Estarriol said:

I played a Maltese chap on Saturday, but my other seven opponents were all brits.

I played this one Belgian dude.  Nand something.  Was wearing a t-shirt that said something about world championships.  I'm pretty sure everyone else was British.

Could have won it, too.  Was maybe two rounds from having Vader in Roark's donut hole in the endgame when his green dice crapped out on him.

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6 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

It's funny how players view different ships in completely different ways.  

I view Dash as a refuge for conservative players, who can fly wherever they want and can still take shots with the one of the biggest guns in the game.  I'm not saying I'm right, but it seems to me a ship whose main weakness only comes forth when hard countered or seriously outplayed. 

I'm sure there are people who think my favorite ships are boorish as well.  We all like to think our favorites require cunning and boldness to maximize their strengths, while opponent's ships are solidly reliable across a broad spectrum of situations.

Woah woah woah woah...Tie Defenders are never boorish. ;)

 

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On 24/03/2018 at 11:24 PM, sozin said:

8 of the top 8 Rebels in the big Mass Regional Swiss today. Something like 13 of 16 IIRC Rebs. 

The competitive scene is off the rails right now, and the driver is asleep at the wheel. I have been on this game for every wave, playtested the first six waves, and led the drive to collect data since 2014 via ListJuggler, and I have never seen it like this before. We are in Crazytown. 

EDIT: I  disagree with the above point. The approach to the game and how it is played is not the problem. The problem is a small collectIon of terribly designed cards:, TLT, Sabine, Traj Sim, Miranda, R2-D2, Bomblet, Ghost Title, Harpoon Missiles, Guidance Chips, Autothrusters, Adaptability, VI, Reinforce, ships with more than six upgrade slots.

This was super predictable. I said it before the last nerf was announced. I lost any hope of balance when the last wave came out. I still come here once in a wile but i sold all my stuff. Game ruined by really bad dev. decisions and it doesnt look like it will improve anytime soon. Instead of learning from their mistake they keep making them again and again. Last 2 were the gunship and the phantom 2. Just like what happened with the scums, be prepared for many months of another faction dominating the game before the devs react (IF they do).

 

Edited by Thormind

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1 hour ago, Astech said:

This kind of a situation is why I like flying Dash - endgame resolution is quick and easy - yet often very tense. He has the power to punch through anything except a Focus+Evade+Autothrusters+AGI3 ace (which his wingman should be able to cope with). He has a number of his own early game weaknesses, so it's almost universally an intellectual game where a single mistake can cost both players the victory.

 

I look at Dash as the other side of the same coin as Miranda (trading offense for defense) with the fact that he can be worth half points probably keeping him down a bit.     I don't look at Dash, at least against most lists, as having the same number of difficult choices.

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31 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I view Dash as a refuge for conservative players, who can fly wherever they want and can still take shots with the one of the biggest guns in the game.  I'm not saying I'm right, but it seems to me a ship whose main weakness only comes forth when hard countered or seriously outplayed. 

I'm sure there are people who think my favorite ships are boorish as well.  We all like to think our favorites require cunning and boldness to maximize their strengths, while opponent's ships are solidly reliable across a broad spectrum of situations.

When I've flown Dash, I viewed him as a glass cannon, in a constant state of fear, ready to pop at any moment!  I'm probably doing it wrong.

And I hate all of the ships you fly.  

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16 minutes ago, gennataos said:

When I've flown Dash, I viewed him as a glass cannon, in a constant state of fear, ready to pop at any moment!  I'm probably doing it wrong.

And I hate all of the ships you fly.  

You're a garbage person who probably spends spare time kicking stray dogs.

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4 hours ago, Astech said:

This kind of a situation is why I like flying Dash - endgame resolution is quick and easy - yet often very tense. He has the power to punch through anything except a Focus+Evade+Autothrusters+AGI3 ace (which his wingman should be able to cope with). He has a number of his own early game weaknesses, so it's almost universally an intellectual game where a single mistake can cost both players the victory.

Contrast this kind of game (which can be had with a majority of lists to some degree) with that of a near mirror-match final game where, assuming both players aren't idiots, the only possible conclusion is a draw. Mathematically speaking, the best choice is always to save your focus token for defense in that Miranda on Miranda final, and she's got so much hull and shields that a damage spike on a TLT is meaningless.

I don't blame the players for running such boring lists per se; FFG created crap like this that can be abused. But I think they could have called it as soon as it was a healthy Miranda Vs healthy Miranda matchup. even if unimaginably good dice created a winner there, it's a victory at the top tables by pure, random chance - essentially a roll-off for the victory anyway. So why bother rolling off for the victory over 2 hours when you can do it in a minute via final salvo instead?

I'll second the calls of other players - fly what you love. So long as you're the better player, and you have a well-designed list that's built with defenses against meta staples you'll win, and enjoy it all the more for it. I love beating RAC with Ghost/Dash. I adored beating triple aces with my Asajj, Unkar and Viktor fun list. Hopefully the upcoming X-wing fix will help players get back to the basics, or at least draw attention away from the current favourites.

I consider players who fly meta lists to not be participating in the game at all (with notable exceptions like casual games); instead, they're automatons that, over the course of hundreds or thousands of games have programmed themselves with an algorithm they believe will lead to success a statistically maximised amount of time. Like a chess player who only plays the same opening - and refuses to play black altogether - they're cutting themselves off from improvement, enjoyment, variety and doing the same to their opponents. So I suppose the players really are to blame after all - they chose to prioritise winning over having fun - for several days in a row, they put their humanity on hold for a chance of satisfying the competitive itch. I pity the player that came second going into the final match with that mindset.

Im surprised you can see us from your high horse. 

1. Dash = Meta

2. I like flying Strezra. Its fun. Its really his list not Miranda's.

3. Miranda is good but no where near immortal. 

4. I don't follow the meta, I define it. Check how many Ezras had Hera on them before this Open and after. 

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3 minutes ago, killerbeardhawk said:

4. I don't follow the meta, I define it. Check how many Ezras had Hera on them before this Open and after. 

Almost all of them both before an after? Sorry man but Snap, R3-A2, Hera has pretty much been the dead standard loadout for a couple of months now.

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11 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I've seen a lot of Gunner variants, also.

I feel like there was a fair bit of gunner early on, but virtually all of them I've seen the last few month have been snap/Hera since it's about as effective and significantly cheaper. My larger point was that it has been common enough for long enough that it was already very solidly meta way before Hoth.

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16 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I feel like there was a fair bit of gunner early on, but virtually all of them I've seen the last few month have been snap/Hera since it's about as effective and significantly cheaper. My larger point was that it has been common enough for long enough that it was already very solidly meta way before Hoth.

Yeah, I agree.  I certainly wouldnt be surprised to see one.  I also wouldn't be surprised to see an uptick in frequency of Hera just because the build was in the final. 

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1 hour ago, Makaze said:

Almost all of them both before an after? Sorry man but Snap, R3-A2, Hera has pretty much been the dead standard loadout for a couple of months now.

Gunner and Tactiction was the standard in my opinion. Until hera verisons were winnimg regionals like Minnesota.

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@killerbeardhawk - Some folks probably don't realize you're the Open winner, nor do they probably realize that you were running Snap/Hera Ezra back in the Chicago Regional in early January.  

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

Almost all of them both before an after? Sorry man but Snap, R3-A2, Hera has pretty much been the dead standard loadout for a couple of months now.

The reason why you've seen that standard loadout for the last couple months is because @killerbeardhawk defined it a couple months ago.

Edited by gennataos

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11 minutes ago, gennataos said:

@killerbeardhawk - Some folks probably don't realize you're the Open winner, nor do they probably realize that you were running Snap/Hera Ezra back in the Chicago Regional in early January.  

The reason why you've seen that standard loadout for the last couple months is because @killerbeardhawk defined it a couple months ago.

Or perhaps because it is relatively obvious, cheap option. 

@killerbeardhawk deserves all the credit for the win (congratulations), but this obsession with making sure the proper person gets credit for a build is a little silly.

Good combos are usually discovered by many hundreds of people all over the world. Just because somebody excelled with a known combo, doesn't mean it's their invention. 

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1 minute ago, Sekac said:

Or perhaps because it is relatively obvious, cheap option. 

@killerbeardhawk deserves all the credit for the win (congratulations), but this obsession with making sure the proper person gets credit for a build is a little silly.

Good combos are usually discovered by many hundreds of people all over the world. Just because somebody excelled with a known combo, doesn't mean it's their invention. 

I don't know that one post makes me obsessive.  I was just pointing out that @killerbeardhawk was the first person I saw running that build, so he wasn't just following the meta, as was suggested.

I don't disagree that great combos are found independently by tons of people.  I looked into the Low/Miranda/(other) list, completely independently and before it started popping up, last July.  But, I'm not a known name nor did I take it to a large event and have success with it.  Defining the meta and inventing a build/list aren't the same thing.

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